Kosovo declares independence from Serbia [Archive]

Ice

02-17-2008, 18:33

Thought this deserved a new thread. Let's try to keep the bickering to a minimal, yes?

PRISTINA, Kosovo (CNN) -- Kosovo has formally declared its independence from Serbia and become the world's newest state in a move opposed by Serbia and Russia but backed by many western governments.

Lawmakers in the legislature of the former Serbian province approved the declaration of independence at an extraordinary session Sunday afternoon. It was read out in Albanian, Serbian and English by prime minister Hashim Thaci before the approval of state symbols including Kosovar's new national flag and anthem.

Thaci said that Kosovo was an "independent and democratic" state, adding: "From this day onwards, Kosovo is proud, independent and free."

CNN's Alessio Vinci, reporting from the Kosovar capital Pristina, said that thousands of Kosovo's Albanian population had braved the freezing wind and cold to sing, dance, wave flags in the streets and light firecrackers ahead of the much anticipated vote. Some revellers were even said to be firing gunshot into the air. "It's been like this for several hours now," he said.

"It's a day they have been waiting for for such a long time that many of them are trying to figure out just how they got to this day."

President George Bush said Sunday that Kosovo's status must be resolved before the Balkans can become stable and that the United States supports the Ahtisaari plan which calls for a form of supervised independence.

The European Union decided Saturday to launch a mission of about 2,000 police and judicial officers to replace the United Nations mission that has been controlling the province since the end of the war with Serbia in 1999.

Kosovo has been under U.N. supervision and patrolled by a NATO-led peacekeeping force since the end of the three-month war, in which NATO warplanes pounded Serbia to roll back a campaign of "ethnic cleansing" of the province's Albanian population under former then-President Slobodan Milosevic.

The disputed province is dear to the Serbs, Orthodox Christians who regard it as Serbian territory. But it is equally coveted by Kosovo's ethnic Albanians, Muslims who have a 90 percent majority, and two years of talks on its final status ended in failure last December.

"Its status must be resolved in order for the Balkans to be stable," President Bush told reporters during a news conference in Tanzania Sunday.

Bush said the Ahtisaari plan -- named after former Finnish President Marti Ahtisaari -- is the best option. The proposal would give Kosovo limited statehood under international supervision.

President Bush added that "it's in Serbia's interest to be aligned with Europe and the Serbian people can know that they have a friend in America." VideoWatch the changing political climate in the Balkans »

"We are heartened by the fact that the Kosovo government has clearly proclaimed its willingness and its desire to support Serbian rights in Kosovo," Bush said.

Thaci said Thursday he would establish a new government office for minorities and it would protect the rights of minorities after the province declares independence.

Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic has promised his country will refrain from using force against Kosovo after independence, though he has warned that Serbia will take punitive diplomatic, political, and economic measures against the province.

Russia -- Serbia's historic ally -- has remained opposed to Kosovo's independence. Russia, which has fought two wars against separatist rebels in its southwestern republic of Chechnya, has said that U.S. and European support for Kosovo's independence could lead to an "uncontrollable crisis" in the Balkans.

The EU said Saturday that "around 1,900 international police officers, judges, prosecutors and customs officials and approximately 1,100 local staff will be based in headquarters in Pristina or located throughout the judicial and police system in Kosovo."

The EU mission's objective is "to support the Kosovo authorities by monitoring, mentoring and advising on all areas related to the rule of law, in particular in the police, judiciary, customs and correctional services," it said.

Thoughts? This seems to have a very much pro west backing, while Russia is against it.

Geoffrey S

02-17-2008, 18:49

Gives people yet another chance for international posturing by proxy. Let's hope it stays at that.

HoreTore

02-17-2008, 19:02

It'll all be for nothing when Mr. Blair becomes president of Europe and bans nation states though...

Vladimir

02-17-2008, 19:12

Great. Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism. Let's have another world war over this [area] of land, shall we?

Sarmatian

02-17-2008, 19:20

Great. Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism. Let's have another world war over this [area] of land, shall we?

Don't like it - stay out of it. It's not insignificant to everyone...

I'm curious which country will the first to recognize Kosovo...

Marshal Murat

02-17-2008, 19:40

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.

Big King Sanctaphrax

02-17-2008, 19:47

I wonder what the mostly Serbian regions in the north of Kosovo will do. Will they demand to be allowed to return to the bosom of Mother Serbia?

Mouzafphaerre

02-17-2008, 19:58

.
I condone this.

Not because I'm buying any arguments of Serbian nationalism but for I can't stand any more ethnic partitioning in these lands. :no:

this [area] of land
This was uncalled for Vlad. Nobody's home deserves being called that. Even Falklands.

agreed. Changed. -Kukri
.

English assassin

02-17-2008, 19:58

Bleh. I'm with Bismark on the subject of the Balkans. So it will be very easy for me to avoid bickering on this one. I couldn't have cared less when they were part of Serbia and I couldn't care less now they are not. They'd have to declare political union with Mozambique to pique my interest.

Oleander Ardens

02-17-2008, 20:04

I touched this briefly with a good friend of mine from Serbia. She said that her social network felt the loss, even if they are all for Europe and against serbian nationalism. It kinda mirrors my personal views about the topic. Being part of an ethnic minority I know that the majority, even with most dubious claims has a hard time to "let go". We seem to be all little children in this way.

Sarmatian

02-17-2008, 20:23

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.

Not so sure... I'm thinking Iceland or some other small country like that...

Bleh. I'm with Bismark on the subject of the Balkans. So it will be very easy for me to avoid bickering on this one. I couldn't have cared less when they were part of Serbia and I couldn't care less now they are not. They'd have to declare political union with Mozambique to pique my interest.

“If there is ever another war in Europe, it will come out of some damned silly thing in the Balkans"

Spoken by a German... The biggest irony of all.:laugh4:

Evil_Maniac From Mars

02-17-2008, 20:28

Spoken by a German... The biggest irony of all.:laugh4:

EDIT: I see what you meant. Thanks. :)

Innocentius

02-17-2008, 21:07

Well, good for them, I guess...

Ronin

02-17-2008, 21:16

as long as people don´t start shooting each other again...whatever

CountArach

02-17-2008, 21:18

Congratulations to the people of Kosovo! May this work out for them better than it previously has for many nations.

Now to go talk to my Serbian friend...

Big_John

02-17-2008, 22:00

apparently albania was the first state to recognize the sovereignty of the kosovar republic.

btw, the serbian PM said he blamed the US for being "ready to violate the international order for its own military interests". could someone explain what he means by that? what military interests are furthered by kosovar independence?

Viking

02-17-2008, 22:04

Since I assume this the majority of Kosovos populations will: huzzah.

Apart from that, `tis silly.

CountArach

02-17-2008, 23:00

The violence begins...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/18/2164981.htm

Viking

02-17-2008, 23:39

https://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7247/kosovofridomrm7.jpg

Sarmatian

02-17-2008, 23:47

Innocentius

02-17-2008, 23:54

The violence begins...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/18/2164981.htm

Pah, this is just the scenario of Wag the Dog coming true.

Tribesman

02-18-2008, 00:40

Well I guess he means on the biggest American military base in Europe that is located in Kosovo...

Well apart from the fact that it isn't .
Do you instead mean the biggest American base that has been built from scratch in Europe in the past few decades ?

But anyway heres a thought for people to ponder , hypothetical of course .
If a group like Altzan got a situation where there was foriegn intervention and the Latino popuation was a majority in favour of independance , should the Southwestern States be allowed to declare independance from the United States ?

Marshal Murat

02-18-2008, 01:08

When you say 'majority in favor of independence', do you mean a majority of the population was Latino, or the majority of the Latino population?
It's apples and oranges, and I'll explain...

In the United States, we have a strong federal government, and we would like to hold onto all our states. I think if Hawaii wanted to split, we wouldn't have that big a problem, but Southwest? No. Definitely not.

In Yugoslavia, it was a mishmash of cultures and identities. Serbs, Bulgarians, Slavs, Albanians, Macedonians, Bosnians, the list goes on. When Yugoslavia split up, we get a bunch of smaller nations that have their own agenda and identity.

The difference?
Yugoslavia split up, the United States didn't, and those in former Yugoslavia have independent traditions and languages. While the United States may have different ethnic groups and languages, Americans identify each other first as 'Americans', then as 'Irish-American', or 'Italian'.

Big_John

02-18-2008, 01:28

Well I guess he means on the biggest American military base in Europe that is located in Kosovo...ok, but even if this is so, how does an independent kosovo further US military interests? was serbia going to close the base or something?

Vladimir

02-18-2008, 02:18

But anyway heres a thought for people to ponder , hypothetical of course . If a group like Altzan got a situation where there was foriegn intervention and the Latino popuation was a majority in favour of independance , should the Southwestern States be allowed to declare independance from the United States ?

Along a similar vein: What separates the Kosovars from a white separatist militia in Montana? Time? Force of arms?

Papewaio

02-18-2008, 02:29

The difference?
Yugoslavia split up, the United States didn't, and those in former Yugoslavia have independent traditions and languages. While the United States may have different ethnic groups and languages, Americans identify each other first as 'Americans', then as 'Irish-American', or 'Italian'.

For the US there is a precedence (Civil War) if the South had of won then there would have been a precedence for it to continue to splinter.

The fact that the North won sets a precedence that in the US you cannot quietly leave. I think though if the US broke up into its member states (much like USSR and the satellite states within the iron curtain) then those states would probably fracture again.

On the whole around the world we generally see a trend of nations getting larger. They might fracture and then reform, but actual nations with the same Prime Minister / President have a tendency to form either greater nations or blocs or trading communities. Now when most nations gain independence they do tend to fracture (India and Pakistan) but given time and economic prosperity (the gravity in nation building) states tend to grow together.

I think the best thing for K and S are to go forth, become more democratic, play nicely and in about 15 to 25 years as they both gain in economic prosperity they will probably reunite in some sort of trading bloc.

CountArach

02-18-2008, 02:30

Along a similar vein: What separates the Kosovars from a white separatist militia in Montana? Time? Force of arms?
A majority who are forced to live under a Government that does not represent them. The people of Montana have this. The Kosovars don't.

MiniMe

02-18-2008, 03:15

Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism.
hmmm... for Russia?
well, if Russia would like to play a victim of Western imperialism, exactly this issue would hardly be an excuse for it

Marshal Murat

02-18-2008, 03:27

Russia seems to always (sometimes correctly) feel paranoid about Western powers (France, Britain). Russia also has a strong tradition of Slavic protectionism, probably stemming from it's mixed Byzantine heritage. Those factors make Serbia and it's Slavic inhabitants something of a Russian friend. Playing on the supposed 'Western Imperialism', Russia is the 'defender of Slavic heritage'. If anything, it's an attempt to look really powerful and benevolent.

TigerVX

02-18-2008, 05:06

Marshal Murat

02-18-2008, 05:24

It's mutual fear, and the Russians want to ensure that they aren't seen as weak. They're sticking up for their Slavic friends because they want to poke the Western world in the eye. It's posturing by the Russians, so that we don't forget about the Ursidae.

I feel that Russia, unless it's willing to send arms or some-such to Serbia to prevent this split, is going to decry this in the Security Council, in the newspapers, on the web, on TV, but in the end, they will try to settle it as favorably for them and for Serbia as possible.

I don't think Russia will try too much violence, unless they feel sufficiently provoked, which, I hope, will not occur.

(Besides, Poland isn't technically putting missile defense systems right on the border with Russia, since I doubt Kaliningrad has any nuclear silos)

Evil_Maniac From Mars

02-18-2008, 05:46

(Besides, Poland isn't technically putting missile defense systems right on the border with Russia, since I doubt Kaliningrad has any nuclear silos)

In July 2007, Russian First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov declared that if US-controlled missile defense systems were deployed in Poland that nuclear weapons may be deployed in Kaliningrad.

It looks like Kaliningrad will only have nuclear silos if the missile shield is built. Oh, the irony...

Marshal Murat

02-18-2008, 05:52

The way to win an atomic war is to make certain it never starts. ~Omar Bradley

I wonder when they'll re-forge the Iron Curtain, Act II may soon end.

Sarmatian

02-18-2008, 08:20

ok, but even if this is so, how does an independent kosovo further US military interests? was serbia going to close the base or something?

Base was built (and is still being built, AFAIK) after 1999, after the US led Nato agression on then FR Yugoslavia. I guess Serbian PM wanted to stress that he thought that it this was all planned even back then and all those events which culminated in Kosovo unilateral declaration of independence was because US wanted to further it's military and political interests in Europe and Balkans (with which I agree, mostly...)

HoreTore

02-18-2008, 08:29

Base was built (and is still being built, AFAIK) after 1999, after the US led Nato agression on then FR Yugoslavia. I guess Serbian PM wanted to stress that he thought that it this was all planned even back then and all those events which culminated in Kosovo unilateral declaration of independence was because US wanted to further it's military and political interests in Europe and Balkans (with which I agree, mostly...)

Paranoia.

A nice trait to have in someone who may start another genocide. Makes me feel safe...

Sarmatian

02-18-2008, 08:48

Really, now? Well I guess people of the world feel very safe with American Dady watching over us, saving us from WMD in Iraq and saving Iraqi the trouble to drill for the oil themselves, And Serbs or Serbia didn't commit genocide at any point in the entire history. We were victims of one, if that's what you were trying to say...

"Camp Bondsteel, the biggest “from scratch” foreign US military base since the Vietnam War is near completion in the Yugoslav province of Kosovo. It is located close to vital oil pipelines and energy corridors presently under construction, such as the US sponsored Trans-Balkan oil pipeline. As a result defence contractors—in particular Halliburton Oil subsidiary Brown & Root Services—are making a fortune.

In June 1999, in the immediate aftermath of the bombing of Yugoslavia, US forces seized 1,000 acres of farmland in southeast Kosovo at Uresevic, near the Macedonian border, and began the construction of a camp.

Camp Bondsteel is known as the “grand dame” in a network of US bases running both sides of the border between Kosovo and Macedonia. In less than three years it has been transformed from an encampment of tents to a self sufficient, high tech base-camp housing nearly 7,000 troops—three quarters of all the US troops stationed in Kosovo.

There are 25 kilometres of roads and over 300 buildings at Camp Bondsteel, surrounded by 14 kilometres of earth and concrete barriers, 84 kilometres of concertina wire and 11 watch towers. It is so big that it has downtown, midtown and uptown districts, retail outlets, 24-hour sports halls, a chapel, library and the best-equipped hospital anywhere in Europe. At present there are 55 Black Hawk and Apache helicopters based at Bondsteel and although it has no aircraft landing strip the location was chosen for its capacity to expand. There are suggestions that it could replace the US airforce base at Aviano in Italy.

According to Colonel Robert L. McClure, writing in the engineers professional Bulletin, “Engineer planning for operations in Kosovo began months before the first bomb was dropped. At the outset, planners wanted to use the lessons learned in Bosnia and convinced decision makers to reach base-camp ‘end state’ as quickly as possible.” entire text (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/apr2002/oil-a29.shtml)

PS Tribesy, you were right, it's the biggest built from scratch.

HoreTore

02-18-2008, 09:11

We were victims of one, if that's what you were trying to say...

You're right, no albanian civilian was ever gunned down by the serb forces. :dizzy2:

Sarmatian

02-18-2008, 11:59

You're right, no albanian civilian was ever gunned down by the serb forces. :dizzy2:

FYI, there is a difference between "gunning down" and genocide...

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

02-18-2008, 12:21

Please, there's more than enough blame to go around

Marshal Murat

02-18-2008, 14:09

And there is more to discuss than this, so I'd appreciate it if we don't start what shouldn't be started.

HoreTore

02-18-2008, 17:19

FYI, there is a difference between "gunning down" and genocide...

I have my own definition for words. When dead civilians, who got killed solely because of their ethnicity, are shipped off to mass graves in trucks, I call it genocide.

Or do you perhaps have another term for what the serbs have done to the albanians?

EDIT: btw, neither Serbia nor Serbs has ever committed genocide? Then WHAT THE HELL do you call Srebrenica?

Mouzafphaerre

02-18-2008, 17:28

.

Srebrenica
Finally. Glad not everybdy here is braindead. :sweatdrop:
.

Marshal Murat

02-18-2008, 17:30

Nor does everyone want to draw this down into a shouting match about genocide. Could we please get off this topic?

Viking

02-18-2008, 18:03

cuz genocides are nasty things that should be ignored.

KukriKhan

02-18-2008, 18:19

cuz genocides are nasty things that should be ignored.

cuz genocides are not directly relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kosovar Independence. Some are "for", some "against", some "no opinion". Return to topic, please.

Fragony

02-18-2008, 19:16

There is currently a whole lot of mess going on about this, look what we have here, a europe devided because of something as small as Albania, few who recognise it and some that don't and a lot that shut up, exactly the horror-scenario that could lead to another european war, still want that unified european army? We have to back one of them no?

KukriKhan

02-18-2008, 19:31

According to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/19/world/europe/19kosovo.html?ref=world): the US, UK & France have recognized Kosovo, with Germany coming soon.

Meanwhile, Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL18645227) reports that Spain will not (recognize).

Mouzafphaerre

02-18-2008, 19:40

.
Turkey jumped the bandwagon early. Pretending to be cautious by delaying it officially. Yet mass media (both the howling dogs of the military caste & bureaucratic elite and the call-girls of the government) are already cheering up.

edit to add LINK (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSANK00036720080218) to the Turkey story. -Kukri

:bow: ― M.
.

Viking

02-18-2008, 22:19

cuz genocides are not directly relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kosovar Independence. Some are "for", some "against", some "no opinion". Return to topic, please.

"Going off topic" is a highly relative term; I fail to see how this was more off topic than what's average here in the backroom.

Viking

02-18-2008, 22:27

https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8894/1203358920957928za3.jpg

Flagburning; nice fellows.

Edit: should've been in the previous post :whip:

Justiciar

02-19-2008, 01:33

That flag represents what's wrong with this chapter in the wider tale of Balkan history. Not that it's being burned, or that it's Albanian. But did anyone spot a single Kosovar flag during the independance marches? I frankly can't blame Serbs in Kosovo or Serbia for being uncomfortable with this. It just looks like power in Kosovo is being taken from Serbs and put into the hands of Albanians. I was under the impression that the purpose behind creating a sovereign Kosovo was to ease tensions. It isn't working so far.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

02-19-2008, 01:44

Kosovo could set a dangerous precident for future ethnic minorities within a nation. Why do you think Canada and Spain are reluctant to sign? Because of Quebec and the Basque State respectively.

Incongruous

02-19-2008, 02:14

Pathetic, the failure of the Balkan states is Kosovo.
If The West truly recognises this then it's opened up a whole new can of worms, for what?
The West has consistently and idoitically picked out the Serbs in this conflict turning them into scapegoats for everything in the Balkans.
I don't know too much about this conflict however I know that there is always shooting from both sides, yet from watching BBC world and CNN I don't get that, I get "It's the Evil Serbs." Truly.

What the West and it's media have done is created a massivley resentful nation, more inclined to listen to Russia and Idiots.

CrossLOPER

02-19-2008, 02:24

Russia and Idiots.
Ouch.

Marshal Murat

02-19-2008, 03:40

That's probably the greatest tragedy, the lack of understanding. I don't really honestly understand the entire issue, but I've got a rudimentary understanding of it. Everyone else sees 'Kosovo declaring independence', and they immediately associate them with the American revolution, and it's easy to portray the Serbians as the 'British' (no offense to my friends across the pond). So you get a bunch of Americans riled up, then we throw in Russians, trying to bring order, and you get the great 'Commie Threat' of Russia, and now we're afraid the Ruskies are going to jump in and interject some Stalinism and Marxism.

Overall, it's a disaster that I wish to blame on the ________.

(P.S., Stephen Fry is an amazing actor)

Alexander the Pretty Good

02-19-2008, 08:52

Well, I hope some people see that the Great Satan is backing the Muslims, at least.

Sarmatian

02-19-2008, 09:56

I have my own definition for words.
That's great, you should write a dictionary...

When dead civilians, who got killed solely because of their ethnicity, are shipped off to mass graves in trucks, I call it genocide.

Or do you perhaps have another term for what the serbs have done to the albanians?

EDIT: btw, neither Serbia nor Serbs has ever committed genocide? Then WHAT THE HELL do you call Srebrenica?

Mass graves are unfortunately common in an area where there is a bigger armed conflict cause there isn't always time, manpower, resources to bury them properly. The point here is not whether mass graves exist, but how did people in them die, and were they soldiers or civilians. And FYI the biggest mass grave in Kosovo is the grave of non-Albanians...

Srebrenica have alredy been discussed here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=68759&highlight=srebrenica). I don't suppose you're gonna believe the words of a serb nationalist like me, but at least take into account the words of Brennus, who is French, and who has actually been there.
I don't have anything to add to what I have already said in that thread, and you can see WHAT THE HELL I call Srebrenica there...

Another word what serbs have done to albanians is fighting terrorism. Unfortunately, I can't say Serbian police was much interested to prove without reasonable doubt that a particular albanian was a terrorist. But on the other hand a good portion of killed Albanian civilians were killed by KLA because they refused to assist either by actually joining the KLA, or by providing safe houses, money etc... Also, keep in mind that serbian police wasn't fighting an army. It was figting terrorist group. That means that there were no uniforms (actually there were but they weren't common), no documents, no strict chain of command, no standardized equipment and weaponry, no ID numbers etc... Most of the time KLA fighters were guys in civilian clothing given some training and a gun. When a person like that is killed, take away his gun and he becomes a "civilian casualty"...

Sorry for the offtopic. Call me paranoid, crazy, old-fashioned, but I have issues when someone use genocide and Serbia in the same sentence and I'm going to respond every time to that and similar claims, expecially when they come from a person who was 2000km away, and whose only knowledge comes from short versions of BBC/CNN reports...

On topic:
No real suprise on those who recognized it... What I am glad, though, is that most Balkan countries (Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece, Bosnia) said that they aren't going to recognize Kosovo. Croatia, Albania and Macedonia almost certainly will, Montenegro still undecided...

Viking

02-19-2008, 12:24

DukeofSerbia

02-19-2008, 12:45

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.
It was Afghanistan. 2nd was USA.

Why Vatican would did it first? Kosovo is not populated by Roman Catholics. :inquisitive:

It's mutual fear, and the Russians want to ensure that they aren't seen as weak. They're sticking up for their Slavic friends because they want to poke the Western world in the eye. It's posturing by the Russians, so that we don't forget about the Ursidae.

I feel that Russia, unless it's willing to send arms or some-such to Serbia to prevent this split, is going to decry this in the Security Council, in the newspapers, on the web, on TV, but in the end, they will try to settle it as favorably for them and for Serbia as possible.
Russia will blockade UDI of Kosovo in UN and every other organisation they can. Just like USA veto every negative resolution about Israel, now the situation will be opposite. Fair enough. :yes:
I wonder why is Spain against Kosovo UDI?

And why should Russia send weapons to Serbia? Both Russia and Serbia are for diplomatic and peaceful solution.

I wonder what the mostly Serbian regions in the north of Kosovo will do. Will they demand to be allowed to return to the bosom of Mother Serbia?
Do you know that Albanians don't control some 30% of territory?

A majority who are forced to live under a Government that does not represent them. The people of Montana have this. The Kosovars don't.
And who are Kosovars? :dizzy2:

Until 17th February this year there was no official Flag of Kosovo, so they used the Albanian one instead.
This flag Albanians will never accept except formally. Flag has the same colors as Bosnian and is similar to it.

DukeofSerbia

02-19-2008, 12:57

Serbia started to call back ambassadors from countries which recognized Kosovo UDI.

Kosovo has everything to become new Palestine:
1. Unemployment over 50%.
2. 50% of population is young below 16 years.
3. There is no economy as 90% of goods are imported, mainly from Serbia.
4. Every young Albanian dream to fly on West and escape from misery.
5. Kosovo has huge lack of energy. Albanians can’t even produce enough power so they live under regular power restrictions. UNMIK has debt of 4 million Euros to pay for power Serbia sold in 2007.

How EU and USA think to raise the economy of USA? Will they donate billions of Euros and $ every year?

Symbolically Afghanistan 1st recognized Kosovo UDI as the 90% of opium/heroin production is there and Kosovo is major shipment route for distribution of heroin into Europe. It is nice [like would Borat said].

P.S.
In reality, Kosovo is partitioned.

Marshal Murat

02-19-2008, 12:58

I figured the Holy See because they seemed like the kinda nation to recognize almost any nation. Darn.

Both Russia and Serbia are for diplomatic and peaceful solution.

Unfortunately, no-one in America knows that, we just assume Russia is ready to send weapons like everyone else assumes that we send weapons to anyone we support.

DukeofSerbia

02-19-2008, 13:08

You are wrong informed. Serbia said NO to military intervention because Serbia won't break Resolution 1244. And Russia stated the same to us and world several times. Also, Serbia won't blockade economically Kosovo. Yes, we can do that and Kosovo would immediately collapse as they mainly import goods from Serbia. If we cut power to Kosovo Albanians would live in dark as Albania and FYROM [neighbors of Kosovo] lack power, too so they can’t export them. But our Government stated several times it won’t happen.

Serbia has enough weapons for solving local problems like Kosovo. Do you know that Serbia export weapons [mainly infantry weapons]?

Redleg

02-19-2008, 14:28

alreadly address by others

edyzmedieval

02-19-2008, 15:31

DukeofSerbia

02-19-2008, 17:19

I do not support the independence of Kosovo, neither does the Romanian parliament. By supporting the Kosovar independence, we make the highway for the other rebellious regions in other parts of the world. Abkhazia and South Osetia started preparing for the proclaiming of their independence. Now, Transnistria (half of Moldavia, near Romania) wants independence too.

So, shame on the European countries, this should NEVER be done!
And people of Serbia are grateful for that.
Two Balkan states which never had war against each other. :2thumbsup:

I saw that Romanian government ordered retreat of administration or something like that from Prishtina. :2thumbsup:

Tribesman

02-19-2008, 18:43

Now, Transnistria (half of Moldavia, near Romania) wants independence too.

Transnistria declared its independence , it had its war of independence , and though Russia has opened a consulate for the "country" no one recognises its legal existence as an independant state .
So perhaps you should drop the "now" from that statement , since its old news .

Viking

02-19-2008, 19:14

So, shame on the European countries, this should NEVER be done!

Why does Kosovo belong to the Serbs rather than the Kosovars? :inquisitive:

Seamus Fermanagh

02-19-2008, 19:26

Is this area the only region which begat its own adjective?

Samurai Waki

02-19-2008, 20:18

edyzmedieval

02-19-2008, 20:26

Transnistria declared its independence , it had its war of independence , and though Russia has opened a consulate for the "country" no one recognises its legal existence as an independant state .
So perhaps you should drop the "now" from that statement , since its old news .

It's not old. They declared their independence, but right now, they want it recognised officially, so they are sending letters to every state so they can have their independence recognised. Romania and Moldavia will never recognise the independence, same goes for Kosovo.

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded. Why should people of Albanian ethnicity want independence when they belong to a country? Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

Vladimir

02-19-2008, 20:36

I'm declaring all my properties independent from the United States government. I will fight a war of independence, sign and declare a constitution, and hold open elections every four years. Although the race always comes down to two people, my wife, and myself... and she usually wins with the majority of votes (The Nationalist Socialist Party of Ms. Waki and Allison always seems to beat the Totalitarian Party of Mr. Waki and Liv). Unfortunately we'll have to import all Commodities and Power, and Export absolutely nothing. I guess if we built weapons plants we could be like the US's (other) version of Israel.

A majority who are forced to live under a Government that does not represent them. The people of Montana have this. The Kosovars don't.

My government doesn't represent me either. I will be succeeding from the United States.
My country (me) is a net exporter of PAIN :angry:

Vladimir

02-19-2008, 20:39

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded. Why should people of Albanian ethnicity want independence when they belong to a country? Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

Agreed.

If they really want independence they should fight for it with both their military and non-military might. Serbia should do the same if they want to stop them. That's how you get a country of your own.

Viking

02-19-2008, 21:31

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded.

...and?

Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

They don't need to, they already have their land. Now they declared full ownership of this land too.

I'm declaring all my properties independent from the United States government. I will fight a war of independence, sign and declare a constitution, and hold open elections every four years. Although the race always comes down to two people, my wife, and myself... and she usually wins with the majority of votes (The Nationalist Socialist Party of Ms. Waki and Allison always seems to beat the Totalitarian Party of Mr. Waki and Liv). Unfortunately we'll have to import all Commodities and Power, and Export absolutely nothing. I guess if we built weapons plants we could be like the US's (other) version of Israel.

~:rolleyes:

Conradus

02-19-2008, 22:07

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded. Why should people of Albanian ethnicity want independence when they belong to a country? Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

So New Mexico belongs to Mexico because it was part of Mexico when it was founded?
Besides, those people aren't Albanians, they were Yugoslavians, and Serbians till yesterday, only of Albanian origin. It's like saying that the Turkish immigrants here in Belgium are Turks.

CountArach

02-19-2008, 22:08

Is Germany recognising Kosovo? I want to see the Holy Roman Empire formed again! Micro states for everyone!

Viking

02-19-2008, 22:36

Is Germany recognising Kosovo?

According to the New York Times: the US, UK & France have recognized Kosovo, with Germany coming soon.

Supposedly.

Papewaio

02-19-2008, 22:40

To share something normally requires that the owner feels like doing so. The owner has to have had a period of time of exclusive ownership and then they feel like sharing. Quite often when a couple start going out they focus on each other to the exclusion of all other friends and family and only after a period of time do they start interacting with each other.

Let those in Kosovo take ownership, pride, authourity and most importantly responsibility for their destiny. Then once they feel that they are a nation and relationships with other states remain normal you might find that Kosovo either rejoins in a bilateral agreement or becomes a close neighbour much like Singapore and Malaysia or New Zealand and Australia.

Having independent states doesn't mean so much when the economies are not independent.

Kralizec

02-19-2008, 23:03

It's like saying that the Turkish immigrants here in Belgium are Turks.

The Turkish government seems to think they are :shrug:

....

I don't think that the Kosovars would need to fight a war against Serbia to "earn" their right of self-determination but I think that long term viability as a nation should be a prerequisite. This new state is a joke, it's going to be dependent on foreign aid for decades to come. I didn't think that the breakaway of Montenegro was a good idea either, but they at least weren't an entirely landlocked country with no industry to speak of.

How is Montenegro doing, anyway?

Don Corleone

02-19-2008, 23:36

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Shouldn't Serbian sections of Kosovo be allowed to secceed and return to Serbia, or become their own micro-state, should they so desire?

There's a problem with the absolute right of self-determination. Nobody, even its most ardent defenders, really truly believe in it. Nor should they. At the end of the day, too much self-determination leads to anarchy.

From a strictly legalist and objectivist point of view, based on what I believe the function of government and sovereignty to be... Kosovo is wrong in this, but then, so too were we back in 1776, applying the same standards.

Marshal Murat

02-19-2008, 23:46

As I understand from the BBC, the EU plans on turning Kosovo around, democratically, anyway.

MiniMe

02-20-2008, 00:14

It would be really interesting to see an Albanian or Macedonian poster opinion here

Ignoramus

02-20-2008, 00:48

I wish Kosovo the worst luck as a country. There's no way they should have become independent. You can thank the UN and the EU for that.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

02-20-2008, 01:01

It was Afghanistan. 2nd was USA.

Actually, it was:

1) Costa Rica
2) Afghanistan
3) USA
4) France
5) Albania
6) Turkey
7) UK
8) Australia
9) Senegal

Tribesman

02-20-2008, 01:29

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded. Why should people of Albanian ethnicity want independence when they belong to a country? Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

That is absolute nonsense , so full of nonsense in fact that there isn't a single redeeming feature in the whole rant .

Ignoramus

02-20-2008, 02:14

Tribesman, are you Irish? If you are, then what's your opinion of Northern Ireland?

Seamus Fermanagh

02-20-2008, 03:53

So New Mexico belongs to Mexico because it was part of Mexico when it was founded?
Besides, those people aren't Albanians, they were Yugoslavians, and Serbians till yesterday, only of Albanian origin. It's like saying that the Turkish immigrants here in Belgium are Turks.

Well we did have at one British prelate suggesting that Sharia law should be worked in -- at least a bit -- for British Muslims. :devilish:

Better yet, put those Turks to use!

Perhaps we can settle all of the Belgo-turks in a 2 mile wide strip of land dividing the semi-autonomous zones of Flanders and Wallonia! What a deal!:deal: :cheesy:

Seamus Fermanagh

02-20-2008, 03:57

Tribesman, are you Irish? If you are, then what's your opinion of Northern Ireland?

Probably that he prefers Murphy's to whatever local swill they brew in Belfast. Tribes will likely also tell you that the Northern Irish politicos are mostly self-serving crooks.

Of course, he'll say that about the Dail too, as well as most of the British and US politicos as well. He's awfully consistent overall.

Gregoshi

02-20-2008, 04:28

This just in: in a statement issued today, Fidel Castro said he does not aspire to, nor will he accept the post of President of Kosovo...

Sarmatian

02-20-2008, 07:49

Why does Kosovo belong to the Serbs rather than the Kosovars? :inquisitive:

Because Kosovars don't exist. In Kosovo there are Serbs and Albanians, no one thinks of himself as Kosovar. How many Kosovo flags have you seen in the last couple of days? Even 3 days after new Kosovo flags are created, Kosovo Albanian still use Albanian flags...

How is Montenegro doing, anyway?

Not so bad. They still have a trading deficit with Serbia (more than half a billion euros), which is huge for such a small country. Unlike Kosovo, they can rely on tourism in the future. They've had a lot of Russian direct investments. Russians are buying everything there, hotels, houses, land, as long as it is close to the shore, and more and more russian tourists are coming. But the real problem is transportation. Roads, railroads, airports, ports, marinas... Also sewer system, water distribution (some tourist destinations still have shortages of water) and many other things. The goverment said that problems with water will be solved within next several years, but I don't see other problems being solved anytime soon. We are talking billions and billions, and that is very, very hard for a country which GDP is 2 billion$...

This just in: in a statement issued today, Fidel Castro said he does not aspire to, nor will he accept the post of President of Kosovo...

:laugh4: :laugh4:

HoreTore

02-20-2008, 10:22

...and?

Come on Viking, let's reclaim Jamtland and Härjedalen!!!

Bloody swedes taking our land...

Csargo

02-20-2008, 10:33

HT for dictator of Scandinavia. UNITE THEM!!!!

HoreTore

02-20-2008, 10:47

My first act as dictator will be to force the swedish royals to do nudie-pics!

Viking

02-20-2008, 11:53

Carl Gustav should pass.. :inquisitive:

Because Kosovars don't exist. In Kosovo there are Serbs and Albanians, no one thinks of himself as Kosovar. How many Kosovo flags have you seen in the last couple of days? Even 3 days after new Kosovo flags are created, Kosovo Albanian still use Albanian flags...

So because they are of the same ethnicity as a people of another nation, they cannot own their own land?

HoreTore

02-20-2008, 12:07

Carl Gustav should pass.. :inquisitive:

I am, of course, only talking about the two princesses.

Ja'chyra

02-20-2008, 15:07

Not sure I agree with this, although I am sure I don't know all the facts.

I reckon if this keeps up you'll soon have as many countries are there pubs where the idea can be thought up while "Putting the world to rights"

KukriKhan

02-20-2008, 15:15

Is Germany recognising Kosovo? I want to see the Holy Roman Empire formed again! Micro states for everyone!

Yes, as of this morning (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/20/europe/20web-gkosovo.php).

Mouzafphaerre

02-20-2008, 15:44

.
A fragmentation of Kosovo herself in expectable, unhopefully following a mini civil war/attempted genocide.
.

Viking

02-20-2008, 16:25

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/1.4876231

Norway will recognise Kosovo.

I am, of course, only talking about the two princesses.

You expect me to be a mind reader, or what? ~D

CrossLOPER

02-20-2008, 16:45

So because they are of the same ethnicity as a people of another nation, they cannot own their own land?
OK, so based on your posts, I take it you are in support of micro fragmentation of nations. Why, may I ask?

Viking

02-20-2008, 17:26

OK, so based on your posts, I take it you are in support of micro fragmentation of nations. Why, may I ask?

It is silly by the Kosovars to split up, but if it is what they want, the Serbs are no one to stop them; I am advocating local democracy. On a side note, I think maybe splitting up is a good solution for many African countries who go through an endless amount of of ethnical civil wars.

Vladimir

02-20-2008, 17:34

It is silly by the Kosovars to split up, but if it is what they want, the Serbs are no one to stop them; I am advocating local democracy. On a side note, I think maybe splitting up is a good solution for many African countries who go through an endless amount of of ethnical civil wars.

Only to replace civil wars with more traditional ones.

Sarmatian

02-20-2008, 17:43

So because they are of the same ethnicity as a people of another nation, they cannot own their own land?

Not at the expense of other peoples land, no.

Kosovo doesn't belond to Albanians alone. Kosovo belongs to all 10 million people living in Serbia. It belongs to Serbs, Hungarians, Albanians, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Germans, Croats... To everyone. We have all paid taxes for development of Kosovo in the last 50 years. We have all bleed for it in the last 100 years. Serbia still pays 100,000 euros every day on account of interest for foreign loans taken specifically for Kosovo (even in the last 8 years when Serbia wasn't able to collect taxes from Kosovo). You just can't create an almost mono-ethnic region by ethnic cleansing and intimidation. And it wasn't just Serbs that where victims of that in Kosovo. All minorities were subject to that treatment, even Turks and Bosniaks (who are also muslim). They all have to same right as Albanians. Albanian don't have any special right because they are the majority in that particular area...

CrossLOPER

02-20-2008, 19:35

It is silly by the Kosovars to split up, but if it is what they want, the Serbs are no one to stop them; I am advocating local democracy. On a side note, I think maybe splitting up is a good solution for many African countries who go through an endless amount of of ethnical civil wars.
Dark-age style border raids? Count me in.

I see what you are trying to suggest, but the details eat away at that form of action.

HoreTore

02-20-2008, 19:43

Only to replace civil wars with more traditional ones.

I'd prefer the traditional state-to-state war over the internal ethnic butchering any day of the week.

Oh and Sarmatian, both my own and Viking's tax money have gone to you(serbs) and Kosovo.

Viking

02-20-2008, 20:33

Not at the expense of other peoples land, no.

Kosovo doesn't belond to Albanians alone. Kosovo belongs to all 10 million people living in Serbia. It belongs to Serbs, Hungarians, Albanians, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Germans, Croats... To everyone. We have all paid taxes for development of Kosovo in the last 50 years. We have all bleed for it in the last 100 years. Serbia still pays 100,000 euros every day on account of interest for foreign loans taken specifically for Kosovo (even in the last 8 years when Serbia wasn't able to collect taxes from Kosovo). You just can't create an almost mono-ethnic region by ethnic cleansing and intimidation. And it wasn't just Serbs that where victims of that in Kosovo. All minorities were subject to that treatment, even Turks and Bosniaks (who are also muslim). They all have to same right as Albanians. Albanian don't have any special right because they are the majority in that particular area...

There is some truth in that, but Kosovo has also paid their taxes to Serbia I assume. There are mutual interests, and there will always be so when new nations declare their independence.

I'd prefer the traditional state-to-state war over the internal ethnic butchering any day of the week.

The states should loose some tax revenue from their enemies and thus even the balance in the region; typically one ethnicity/religion is backed by the state military wise.

War between two different countries are easier to handle; how many international wars are going on in Africa at the moment? Isn't it 0?

CountArach

02-20-2008, 20:50

Not at the expense of other peoples land, no.
So they are supposed to go off and colonise another land? I really don't think there are many other country-sized Islands left in the world.

HoreTore

02-20-2008, 21:03

War between two different countries are easier to handle; how many international wars are going on in Africa at the moment? Isn't it 0?

Not sure on the Ethiopian/Eritrean/Somali status... But it's not open war in the traditional sense, at least.

Also, traditional wars are a lot easier for an international community to intervene in, for example in the gulf war(Saddam attacking kuwait, the US shoving them back). But international forces usually makes a mess whenever they try to sort out internal conflicts...

Conradus

02-20-2008, 21:22

Perhaps we can settle all of the Belgo-turks in a 2 mile wide strip of land dividing the semi-autonomous zones of Flanders and Wallonia! What a deal!:deal: :cheesy:

Two-mile? You've never been to Belgium I take it, most of the communities on the language border aren't even two miles wide. None would want to give up so many land to these Belgo-Turks:grin3:

CrossLOPER

02-20-2008, 23:14

So they are supposed to go off and colonise another land? I really don't think there are many other country-sized Islands left in the world.
You really need to learn how to think outside the box.

Think about it.... most of the land around the world belongs to a governing entity. What about the area high above? Not quite in Earth's orbit, but close to it. Floating landmasses.

Also, if they fall they'll probably kill everyone on and underneath so it works out all the same in the end. :beam:

Incongruous

02-21-2008, 00:42

Ok, I'm confused.
What are these Belgo-Turks?!
A delightful collection of Turkish delight covered in Belgian Chocolate ready for consumption? mmmmm... Multi-ethic confectionary.

Doesn't all this set a dangerous precedent for confectionary based on purely ethnic lines?

Papewaio

02-21-2008, 00:52

The Australia vs New Zealand Pavlova wars I think is one of these confectionery wars.

Gregoshi

02-21-2008, 02:21

The Australia vs New Zealand Pavlova wars I think is one of these confectionery wars.
Was that the Battle of the Bulge?

Brenus

02-21-2008, 08:57

“You really need to learn how to think outside the box”: True. :laugh4: President Tudjman from Croatia when face to the dilemma what to do with the Serbs living in Croatia just said to sent them to the Moon… At the end, they were “ethnic-cleaned” after Oluje, under the view of all the Nations which are actually recognising Kosovo. Well you have politically correct ethnic cleansing and not PC. You have unchangeable Recognised International Borders (Croatia, Bosnia) and the ones which are not (Serbia).
The Albanians can’t live with the Serbs in Serbia, but the Serbs can live with the Albanians in Kosovo. They have a different history from the Serbs of Serbia “proper”?:inquisitive:
We just came back to the Treaty of Trianon, when the good old powers divided the spoils of war…
Good enough but stop the ultimate hypocrisy pretending to do so in the name of democracy and freedom: Your democracy stop where mine started…
It is just the continuation of the “bomb the Serbs” policy initiated 10 years (err, more, time is flying…) ago.:yes:

Papewaio

02-21-2008, 23:52

Body found in torched US embassy (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23257099-2,00.html)

A CHARRED body was found in the US Embassy in Belgrade after protesters smashed their way into the building in anger at Kosovo's independence and set the building on fire, a US official has said.

"All US personnel have been accounted for," said a US official. He had no details on the nationality or identity of the body.

The US ambassador to the United Nations said earlier that he was "outraged" by the storming of the embassy.

I wonder what the Chinese will have to say about this? :inquisitive:

Tribesman

02-22-2008, 01:40

I wonder what the Chinese will have to say about this?
They will probably say ..."someone burned your embassy in Belgrade , you lucky lucky bastards , some bugger bombed our embassy in Belgrade"~;)

Seamus Fermanagh

02-22-2008, 05:45

Two-mile? You've never been to Belgium I take it, most of the communities on the language border aren't even two miles wide. None would want to give up so many land to these Belgo-Turks:grin3:

I'm well aware of the size of Belgium! 4 Hexes in 3R, about 14 across in 1914, 1 cavalry move in XGM...

I'm well aware that my profferred solution has a few "practicality" issues. Therefore, I say leave it all up to Andres to decide. :devilish:

Brenus

02-22-2008, 08:52

HoreTore

02-22-2008, 11:13

Looks like another genocide on the balkans is beginning.

Great.

Mouzafphaerre

02-22-2008, 12:46

.
This whole drama will just increase the deathly disease, which is nationalism in the Balkans, especially in Serbia, and harden the ways of the handful people that are not stricken by the disease over there. :no:
.

Fragony

02-22-2008, 12:46

Balkans are always good for a laugh. This isn't going to end well :no:

Redleg

02-22-2008, 13:36

"wonder what the Chinese will have to say about this?" What did the Serbs to protect it? :laugh4:
So, it is International Laws and duties to protect an Embassy which bomb and rip you off your territory... Candy Rice should get a grip... USA and others followers open a huge breach in International laws and now want the same Treaties , Agreements and usages to apply again. :oops:

Interesting - are you claiming that the United States acted illegally and against international law in the former Yugoslavia?

Is your arguement that attempting to stop genocide is wrong?

Is it against international law to recongize another nation that declares indepence from another?

Brenus

02-22-2008, 21:16

Redleg

02-23-2008, 01:33

Interesting - are you claiming that the United States acted illegally and against international law in the former Yugoslavia?
Yes. No UN resolution to legally back up the intervention, then breach of UN rules concerning sovereignty and Recognised International Borders.
Spain, Rumania and Russia (and others) share this opinion.

Kosovo intervention was very much a tail wagging the dog scenerio from the very beginning IMO. Now I would not call it illegal - mis-informed definitely. The initial briefs indicated that something bad (ie the term genocide was being batted around a lot,) but upon investigation it turned out to be incorrect. To bad the UN once again failed to actually confront the situtation prior to the start of the intervention. That and a certain politician in the United States wanting to deflect attention off of him.

Was the operation illegal - No, I actually asked that question to the Inspector General of the US Army because of the above scenerio. The answer given to me was the same one being used to explain Afganstan.

Is your arguement that attempting to stop genocide is wrong?
Nope. I fully approve any intervention in order to prevent genocide. I even will go further. US and EU operation should have been done before the real conflict started and put people around the negotiation table before the tragedy…
PS: I did pass borders illegally (after Desert Storm Operation) for Humanitarian Help. I still think it was legitimate. However it doesn't make it legal

This was actually the intent of the operation at first. That we (the US) screwed up the time table attempting to bring sufficient force into the area prevented the attempt from going on schedule. Remember operations were delayed several times for several reasons, one being weather, the second being a crash that forced the grounding of aircraft for the operation.

However, Kosovo campaign was not aim to prevent genocide. If you followed Milocevic proceeding, it was shown that the expulsion of the Albanians in mass started after the beginning of the bombing campaign. Basically, operation Horse Shoes never happened, the Stadium in Pristina wasn’t used as a concentration camp as pretended by Madeleine Albright, no fresh bodies were recovered from the coal mines etc…
Racak was a complete set-up.

Some of that I realize because the intelligence was flawed from the very beginning. (Both the United States and UK should of realized then that our reliance on Electronic Intell was flawed.) Some information after Kosovo was never released in the United States because of the egg on the face of the adminstration at the time. Interesting to see that failure of information was not world wide. Explains some of the hostility of the Serbs regarding Kosovo. Its hard to face an independence of a section of land that was based upon false information being sold.

I am not denying that the MUP and others gangs did atrocities towards some Albanians, but nor the KLA was exempt of such behaviour… One of the leaders of the KLA is actually in The Hague to answer about some killings and rapes. I do not doubt he will leave the Court free and honourable, like Oric did… For the tribunal, to kill Serbians Civilians is legitimate.
I think I remember you were in Bosnia, so you know that the situation was a little bit more complex on the filed than in the media…

Yes I agree the KLA are/were a bunch of Thugs - to bad the United States believed their side more then the Serbs. But because of Bosnia the United States was looking for reasons not to trust the Serbia and the KLA played into that.

Is it against international law to recongize another nation that declares indepence from another?
Oh no. What is illegal is to recognise a country which takes one part of another country without negotiations (I means, real negotiations, not the one like Rambouillet). What is illegal is to use foreign troops under the UN cover to protect the, how can I qualify this, invasion, land-naping, the decision to cut family from their relatives and to declare that from now one, there are from a different country. It not only illegal, it is immoral. We bomb the Serbs to prevent them to do so (allegedly) and we are doing the same.
In fact, what will happen is a situation a la Cyprus… The Serbian population will leave within Serbian authority, laws and currency. The Kosovar will do use what ever money they want (probably US dollars or Euro). Every body will fail to recognise it but nobody will react against it.
In few years, Balkans business obliging, normalisation will come, and both side will join EU, will live happily within.:beam:

I actually find the declartion of independence to be foolish of Kosovo - however to call it illegal under international law is too strong of an arguement, since international law probably does not address declartions of independence. Nor is the independence immoral - if people feel strongly enough to revolt against their current leadership and declare independence, then they have a moral arguement to do just that. IE the United States model.

Brenus

02-23-2008, 10:31

“The answer given to me was the same one being used to explain Afghanistan.” The Russian one?
Joke apart, how the two countries can be compared? Afghanistan was harbouring an organisation which actually attacked US? Serbia never attacked US… Kosovo was more an internal badly managed affair…

“But because of Bosnia the United States was looking for reasons not to trust the Serbia and the KLA played into that.” Yes, that is the answer. The Serbs were the badies, and we taught them a lesson…
For the same reason, the expulsion of the Serbs from Croatia after Flash and Storm operations was accepted by the EU and US, the exodus of the Serbs from Sarajevo and several Bosnians area was accepted…
It was sold to the public. The Serbs were the aggressors, the ultimate villains.
Well, it is still at work nowadays if you read some reactions…

What really bothers me is the lack of understanding of what the Serbs think. Javier Solana and his comments: Does he really think that the Serbs want EU now? After this denial of justice?
Kosovo is as well Methojia, which means the land of the Church. Except if the very communist Tito did built 1000 of religious monuments, some have to accept that is the Religious heart of Serbia. So due the definition of nationality in this area is based on religion (Croats are Catholics, Bosnians Muslim), roughly, more complex than that but roughly, the EU and US just took their historical myth to the Serbs, Kosovo Polje were Prince Lazar and Sultan (err, not sure of the title) Murad confronted each other and died (both of them)…

All the enemies of Serbia are still playing with that. The fact that Serbia was the only countries revolting against its dictator, the fact that Serbia even today is still multi-ethnic, all that doesn’t count. Even worst it play against Serbian interest: Croatia having expelled its own Serbs has no problem regarding this issue: The Reward of a successfull Ethnic Cleansing...
A little bit of effort and all the Serbs, from the relative majority in Yugoslavia will become minorities (but don’t worry, their rights will be guaranty by the people who few years ago were slaughtering them) and five or six countries. If they are good, they will be able to keep Belgrade. If no other oppressed minorities wanting to become majority have a claim of it, of course…
The actual situation is: Serbs are minority in Rumania, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia and now Kosovo. Soon will arise the problem of Vojvodine. Well, we can create a problem, and draw a border, including more Hungarians than Serbs are well, give them Independence. Same operations with Sandzak, Sumadija… Why not?

“IE the United States model.” The USA didn’t include London in their claim. Again Kosovo is Metohjia as well. Give Kosovo, the Serbs won’t give too much attention to the piece of stones. Metohjia (forgot the spelling, grr) is the problem.

KrooK

02-23-2008, 15:17

It would be interesting.

How many provinces could divide from coutries.

1) Every US State

2) Quebec (French majority)

3) Scotland

4) Wales

5) South France (muslims)

6) Whole Spain

7) North Italy (due to North League aspirations)

8) Berlin (Turks)

9) Meklemburg (there is fast polish colonization)

10) East Estonia

11) East Latvia

12) Laponia (North Sweden/Norway)

13) Wojwodina

14) Whole Russian Federation Republics

15) Big Parts of China

16) Arab cities from Israel

17) Kurdistan

I won't mention Africa because it is one big (here you can put 6 letter word started from f and finished on n) mess (with honorable exeption for Egypt -sun and hot sea).

Conradus

02-23-2008, 15:54

You forgot to mention Belgium.

And I don't know a six letter word beginning with 'f' and ending with 'n' to fit that place:scholar:

Vladimir

02-23-2008, 16:40

Petoria. NOT Peterland!

HoreTore

02-23-2008, 18:17

12) Lappland (North Sweden/Norway)

....and good riddance!

Fragony

02-23-2008, 19:42

But they make awesome knives

HoreTore

02-23-2008, 20:21

But they make awesome knives

Who?

Thinking of "samekniven"?

Fragony

02-24-2008, 05:55

Who?

Thinking of "samekniven"?

The suomi people make them, the handle is made with rings of deer-horn and has cool patterns, blade I don't know but it's so sharp it's scary.

Redleg

02-24-2008, 21:21

“The answer given to me was the same one being used to explain Afghanistan.” The Russian one?
Joke apart, how the two countries can be compared? Afghanistan was harbouring an organisation which actually attacked US? Serbia never attacked US… Kosovo was more an internal badly managed affair…

Actually I was thinking along both the old Soviet reason and the United States reasons. The difference of course being the attack on the United States, but controlling violence was the excuse of both.

“But because of Bosnia the United States was looking for reasons not to trust the Serbia and the KLA played into that.” Yes, that is the answer. The Serbs were the badies, and we taught them a lesson…
For the same reason, the expulsion of the Serbs from Croatia after Flash and Storm operations was accepted by the EU and US, the exodus of the Serbs from Sarajevo and several Bosnians area was accepted…
It was sold to the public. The Serbs were the aggressors, the ultimate villains.
Well, it is still at work nowadays if you read some reactions…

What really bothers me is the lack of understanding of what the Serbs think. Javier Solana and his comments: Does he really think that the Serbs want EU now? After this denial of justice?
Kosovo is as well Methojia, which means the land of the Church. Except if the very communist Tito did built 1000 of religious monuments, some have to accept that is the Religious heart of Serbia. So due the definition of nationality in this area is based on religion (Croats are Catholics, Bosnians Muslim), roughly, more complex than that but roughly, the EU and US just took their historical myth to the Serbs, Kosovo Polje were Prince Lazar and Sultan (err, not sure of the title) Murad confronted each other and died (both of them)…

All the enemies of Serbia are still playing with that. The fact that Serbia was the only countries revolting against its dictator, the fact that Serbia even today is still multi-ethnic, all that doesn’t count. Even worst it play against Serbian interest: Croatia having expelled its own Serbs has no problem regarding this issue: The Reward of a successfull Ethnic Cleansing...
A little bit of effort and all the Serbs, from the relative majority in Yugoslavia will become minorities (but don’t worry, their rights will be guaranty by the people who few years ago were slaughtering them) and five or six countries. If they are good, they will be able to keep Belgrade. If no other oppressed minorities wanting to become majority have a claim of it, of course…
The actual situation is: Serbs are minority in Rumania, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia and now Kosovo. Soon will arise the problem of Vojvodine. Well, we can create a problem, and draw a border, including more Hungarians than Serbs are well, give them Independence. Same operations with Sandzak, Sumadija… Why not?

Havent thought of it much towards that aspect. Having seen the violence that has been done, and the news reports of what is currently happening, I just don't have much support for the Serbian viewpoint.

“IE the United States model.” The USA didn’t include London in their claim. Again Kosovo is Metohjia as well. Give Kosovo, the Serbs won’t give too much attention to the piece of stones. Metohjia (forgot the spelling, grr) is the problem.

Again the model would support the independence declaration. Now cutting a city in two is not a smart move regardless of how it is done.

DukeofSerbia

02-26-2008, 11:45

I was in Belgrade 21st February in largest protest in history of Serbia. You know what happened [burning of US Embassy], but I wasn't involved ;-). I saved video [and photo, too] with my cell phone [not bad for Nokia 6120 classic :beam:] as much as possible and uploaded in YouTube.

In my town before buses went:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2_b5C5KZ1k

Main pause in highway [gasoline station]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijJL1UBHTnQ
Endless line of buses passing at gasoline station:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJx3NZYJ6Vg

We came at parking [at Sava Center and Hotel Intercontinental] and then we had to go by foot next 3 km:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7JDOlDa0fw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goMewI5fL2E

On the way to Parliament of Serbia by foot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wznsF-IaoR8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Ex9DJGZ1g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBluLnU5hiE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O637Vl-u19o

At protest ‘Kosovo is Serbia’ in front of Parliament of Serbia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tvIDT8LHtQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrFdS_ZnfQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZMWL8XS7kM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnr9OFPW0mk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaIVLq_PeRU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXXCZLaqY8

On the way to Temple of St Sava:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nXRWfo6YGs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3mCa1-uheI

Justiciar

02-26-2008, 16:01

Oh god! 3 families of Albanians "dominate" the local baking industry! We must protest!

Pathetic. I'm losing sympathy for Serbia rapidly.

Meneldil

02-27-2008, 11:55

5) South France (muslims)

I laughted at this.

Seriously, I mean, what ? Have you ever been to France, or does all your knowledge about other countries come from nationalistic, far-right newspapers ?

Caerfanan

02-27-2008, 12:24

5) South France (muslims)
Well, muslims are not intending whatever in my country, apart from some extremists, but who doesn't claim its own "stupid people quota"?

Anyway, if there were to be any concern about "separatists", it would be, in France, and in that order probably:
- Corsica (an island between France and Italy)
- Pays basque/ Pais Basco: extreme South west.
- Catalogne / Cataluña: South, Pyrennées mountains
- Britanny (north west "arm" on a map)
- Alsace (close to Germany)
None of which based on muslim religion anyway.

But please note that the "non community centered" politics here tends to prevent people from feeling too much "from this community" before "french". I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It's just not encouraged.. yet... Even in Corsica where bombs tend to explode in outsiders houses and where government buildings tend to be shot at, we're speaking of a "visible minority" (Not sure, maybe 5-10% strongly for independance, and 5% of those ready to take arms?).

It's still surprising to see, in a world where everything tends to be globalized (h...l am I not posting to people from all around the world there? :egypt: ) to see people wanting their village for "themselves"... Which means?

CrossLOPER

02-27-2008, 16:54

I laughted at this.

Seriously, I mean, what ? Have you ever been to France, or does all your knowledge about other countries come from nationalistic, far-right newspapers ?
Based on what he's been telling me about my country, probably.

EDIT: That, and crappy music videos on youtube.

KrooK

02-27-2008, 19:24

What can I say about France.
According to your words these burning cars are examples of new kind of thunders :)

Anyway no Pole is talking ":daisy: Poland" like these "extremists" were doing all the time when camera was on them. Some people here yell ":daisy: government" (because there are liberals), ":daisy: president" (cause he is not liberal), ":daisy: Wisla Krakow" (football club not liked into Warsaw), ":daisy: Legia Warsaw" (another football club not liked into Krakow) - but no one ":daisy: Poland".

Fragony

03-17-2008, 12:26

Things heating up alright http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7300015.stm

:sweatdrop:

Vladimir

03-17-2008, 13:32

Things heating up alright http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7300015.stm

:sweatdrop:

The UN really needs to start using condoms. This is just pathetic.

Seamus Fermanagh

03-17-2008, 14:45

Vladimir

03-17-2008, 15:48

I haven't watched the videos yet to check for myself, but I'll respond with a basic question anyway.

So were you there to protest, or were you there to meet pretty girls who were AT the protest?

Protest girls! :2thumbsup:

Sarmatian

03-18-2008, 01:25

And pretty girls were there to meet pretty guys who were at the protest.

KrooK

03-21-2008, 00:58

Bad news
Serbs killed Ukrainian policeman and injured some Poles while UN forces retaken court into Mitrovica. Sadly Poles agreed on being lead by civilian UN idiot.

Vladimir

03-21-2008, 02:03

Bad news
Serbs killed Ukrainian policeman and injured some Poles while UN forces retaken court into Mitrovica. Sadly Poles agreed on being lead by civilian UN idiot.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,338799,00.html

Brenus

03-21-2008, 11:00

“Bad news
Serbs killed Ukrainian policeman and injured some Poles while UN forces retaken court into Mitrovica. Sadly Poles agreed on being lead by civilian UN idiot.” And injured few French, thank to mention it…
Well, nothing unexpected, I guess.

A clearly stupid political decision, imposed on a majority of a country with as result, part of it becomes a minority without consent, breaking International Laws (Helsinki Agreement).
It is even bitter for this new minority, because it was explained the new majority can’t live with the former majority due the past action of the former majority, but when they become the minority all will be fine.
All evidence of from the past (in Bosnia and in Croatia) tends to prove this being wrong, and never the So-call International Community did raise one finger to protect the Serbs minority, as seen after NATO intervention and the cleaning by the Albanians of all others non-albanians populations in Kososvo, burning churches etc...
We are still waiting for the Serbs refugees to be able to go back to Croatia (before war, 10 % of the Croatian population –the same than the Albanians in Serbia, just by the way- 4 % nowadays), a proper procedure of Croatian War Criminals – not a down size indictment which will be concluded by a non-guilty verdict, as for Naser Oric, Bosnian commander of Srebrenica- responsible for a massacre near Bratunac in December 1992 in which many Serb civilians had been killed), when the “International Community” and The Hague Tribunal just did agree with what was done, killing and destroying Serbs not been seen as a crime, apparently…

So, Serbs are rightly seeing the UN Forces are occupiers…

I find quite funny to see the Albanian President and Prime Minister (oops, sorry, Kosovar) stating they will not accept a partition of the territory (based on which International law they broke?), or parallel institution (what a laugh!!!)… It was good for them but not for the Serbs.

KrooK

03-21-2008, 17:51

Now I don't care about Kosovo, Serbia and Albania (but I still think Kosovo should be part of Serbia) - POLES WERE INJURED DUE TO :daisy: UN IDIOT who did not predict that everyone there have grenades.

So, Serbs are rightly seeing the UN Forces are occupiers…

I don't care what polish police is being recognised into Serbia but Poles are not supporting neither Albanians nor Serbs. Without polish police (with small support of french foreign legion) Serbs from Mitrovica would be very fast executed - like they killed muslims into Srebrenica. So Serbs should rather feel respect for polish police because without Poles they would be dead Serbs.

BTW they might have their rights but .... if they will be trying to attack Poles they might stop playing and show them who rules.

Of course all my statements about Poles refer to Ukrainians too.
They did even more because their policeman was killed.

Vladimir

03-21-2008, 17:56

nvm

Conradus

03-22-2008, 09:42

I don't care what polish police is being recognised into Serbia but Poles are not supporting neither Albanians nor Serbs. Without polish police (with small support of french foreign legion) Serbs from Mitrovica would be very fast executed - like they killed muslims into Srebrenica. So Serbs should rather feel respect for polish police because without Poles they would be dead Serbs.

So you don't care that the Serbs see the Poles and UN-forces as occupiers, but they should have respect for their "occupiers"?:shocked2:
The Poles aren't their to earn respect.:surprised:

Brenus

03-22-2008, 09:49

“they killed muslims into Srebrenica”: The Serbs of Kosovo never fought in Bosnia. I see you are aware of the reality of the field.

By the way, to ignore that the Serbs (and Albanians) have weapons and hand grenades, and LAW as well, is showing a lack of contact with the local population…

“if they will be trying to attack Poles they might stop playing and show them who rules” or the Poles will shot 100 Serbs for Pole killed, like the Germans in the good old time…

The Poles take part in an Illegal Occupation. So, they should be prepared to this kind of events. Sorry for the poor guy, but, like the others, he had to pay for his government policy…:oops:

KrooK

03-22-2008, 12:33

Brenus tell me my goodness teacher plz;
Serbs from Srebrenica did not belong to same nation like Serbs from Mitrovica?
Maybe they are other Serbs - maybe we should start calling them (I dont know) - KosoSerbs? Or Bosna Serbs are competely different nation than Serbia Serbs - like Pruses and Prussians?

Poles are not occupiers there - they are protecting Serbs. Without Poles, Albanians from Mitrovica would finish with Serbs long time ago.

And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that. With full respect for Serbs - 1 polish life is worth for me much more. If Serbs want crush Albanians into Kosovo and recapture province without attacking Poles - I see no problem. But attack on Poles should be strictly punished - especially that they are not soldiers but policemen.

BTW
By the way, to ignore that the Serbs (and Albanians) have weapons and hand grenades, and LAW as well, is showing a lack of contact with the local population…

It was (you know what word I mean) UN (here something about his mental predispositions) who ordered not to take weapon. Polish commander would not be so stupid. However you can see who has biggger (male organ here) - Serbs who have to take guns and grenades or poles who don't need them.

Tribesman

03-22-2008, 12:48

And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that.
And some people wonder about the mentality of some Germans under the Nazis and how they could accept such rubbish , when here we can see that such :daisy: is still around .

Conradus

03-22-2008, 12:50

Brenus tell me my goodness teacher plz;
Serbs from Srebrenica did not belong to same nation like Serbs from Mitrovica?
Maybe they are other Serbs - maybe we should start calling them (I dont know) - KosoSerbs? Or Bosna Serbs are competely different nation than Serbia Serbs - like Pruses and Prussians?

If you consider nations to be countries, then yes they're different.

Poles are not occupiers there - they are protecting Serbs. Without Poles, Albanians from Mitrovica would finish with Serbs long time ago.

It doesn't matter what they are, it matters how they're perceived. And they're conisered to be occupiers, so unless they can change that image, they'll be treated as such. Not that I concurr but.

And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that. With full respect for Serbs - 1 polish life is worth for me much more. If Serbs want crush Albanians into Kosovo and recapture province without attacking Poles - I see no problem. But attack on Poles should be strictly punished - especially that they are not soldiers but policemen.

And to me 100 Serbian lifes are worth more than 50 Polish ones.
But indeed the death of that Pole shouldn't go unpunished, but no capital punishments or anything, just a searching and trialing of the attacker(s).

Brenus

03-22-2008, 17:14

“Serbs from Srebrenica did not belong to same nation like Serbs from Mitrovica”
OK. I see. I will try to explain.
Once upon a time it was a country named Yugoslavia.
In this Yugoslavia were living together different people with different languages and different religions.
The leader of Yugoslavia (the last real one) was a communist dictator who, in order to keep the power, played nations against nations, religion against religion… In order to achieve that, he create administrative regions, carefully carve and design in making the relative majority of the “Yugoslav” population a minority.
Each of the Nation had its Republic, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Slovenia with minorities living within each Republic: the Serbs were the most split having to live in all different Republics (Yugoslavia was a Federation).
In doing this, he was making the majority minorities in all others Republics…
To complete his grip on (and control) on the Serb, he devised (in Serbia proper) 2 autonomous regions (Kosovo and Vojivodine) which could block any decision in Serbia, but where Serbia couldn't intervene…
He created artificially another Nation, the Muslims, who were basically Serbs (mainly) or Croats whose ancestors converted to Islam long time ago, during the 500 years of Ottoman occupation…
Then after the collapse of Yugoslavia, the International Community (hand a little bit twisted by Germany) hastily recognised Independence (against the opinion of some legal experts) of Slovenia, Croatia then Bosnia… So, the Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia become part of another country than Serbia… Croats as well, in Bosnia…
So Serbia itself was never in war against Croatia or Bosnia. Not that Serbia didn’t help, but Bosnia and Croatia had a rebellion from THEIR Serbian minorities… Minorities we (International Community) bombed and punished because they had to accept the International Recognised Borders, see Helsinki Treaty… And UN charter…
So, we had the UNTAES (United Nation Transitional Administration, I don’t remember what the two last letters were for, well Vukovar Region) to oblige the local Serb to voluntarily join the Republic of Croatia, in an explosion of joy and firework…
But, it can’t be done in Kosovo… Why it still not clear. Well, it is. It is because they are Serbs. Badies… War criminals, systematic rapists (well, charges abandoned at the Hague because complete lies, but some journalists still speak about it…), “Genocidors” (again, lack of evidence of the 8 000 killed in Srebrenica, around 3 000 bodies recovered, and not all Muslims and for the war, but still, you know, doesn’t matter), Ethnic Cleansing (which both sides did actively, the last one being the Albanians Kosovars, as you stated)… Bomb the Serbs…
So, to be short, the Serbs “genocidor –well, even if the only witness is a Croat who described against immuniyu, a change of name and a job- how him and 7 others killed 1 200 Muslims, operation which, according to his description, would have taken 20 hours… and the bodies never found, despite Madeleine Albright Satellite Pictures – have bad reputation.
The conclusion is what ever the situation is, the Serbs are guilty.
But, no, they are not the same in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia (and Montenegro, Slovenia, I don’t think there are too much left after the bureaucratic Ethnic Cleansing, and Macedonia).

“Poles are not occupiers there - they are protecting Serbs.” The Poles are part of a force which is actually stopping the Serbs to regain by force their territory. Kosovo Independence is due to NATO bombing campaign and NATO occupation of the territory. You can agree with this policy, however, to pretend that Poles (or others) are protecting the Serbs is just as pretending that the Germans protected Poland against the Russians after 1939…:beam:

Sarmatian

03-24-2008, 12:20

I don't think Serbs see UN force there as an occupation force, although in theory that troops are protecting Kosovo independance, so they could be perceived as occupiers. That Pole just got in between.

But as Brennus said, it is really funny to see arguments used by Kosovo Albanians... The same arguments that they said weren't good enough only a month before.

CountArach

03-24-2008, 12:26

GOD BLESS POLAND!!!

:poland: :poland: :poland: :poland:
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
:poland: :poland: :poland: :poland:

Fragony

03-24-2008, 12:35

And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that. With full respect for Serbs

I am sure they are very moved by your respect. I mean, well, wow.

Pannonian

03-24-2008, 13:06

I am sure they are very moved by your respect. I mean, well, wow.
I think you need to rethink your description of yourself as far right. Krook makes you look like a bleeding heart liberal.

Fragony

03-24-2008, 13:26

I think you need to rethink your description of yourself as far right. Krook makes you look like a bleeding heart liberal.

If you want to identify not being homicidal as being a bleeding heart liberal maybe I should, but there is quite some more to it. I am a nationalist, and we are a friendly and civilised nation, I want to keep it like that, positive nationalism. If that is the far right it wasn't me that put me there.

Pannonian

03-24-2008, 13:57

If you want to identify not being homicidal as being a bleeding heart liberal maybe I should, but there is quite some more to it. I am a nationalist, and we are a friendly and civilised nation, I want to keep it like that, positive nationalism. If that is the far right it wasn't me that put me there.
Political leanings of Fragony (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1864678&postcount=45)

Where do you put yourself on the political spectrum: far-right

Fragony

03-24-2008, 14:42

I guess it means something else for you, far-right has nothing to do with racism, quite the contrary, or I couldn't think of anything more the contrary. Far right is anti-governance, do not mistake me with extreme right, which has been hijacked as well by the way.

Sarmatian

03-24-2008, 23:36

On a side note, we have a little anniversary today. On this exact day, 9 years ago US-led NATO commited aggression on then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in an operation ironically named "Merciful Angel", supposedly to protect native Albanian population in Kosovo.

Clinton administration claimed that there were hundreds of thousands of dead Albanians, that there were mass killings in football stadiums, numerous mass graves filled with civilians. And, as we all know, later proved that it was unimportant that nothing of that were true. There were around 2000 dead, terrorists, serbian police officers and civilians all put together. There were no mass murders in football stadiums, and to this day there is no trace of those mass graves where supposedly hundreds of thousands of native Albanians were buried, although, occasionally, some mass graves of non-Albanians were found in Kosovo but that is another story...

The agression, which started 24th March, 1999 at 20:03 CET by dropping bombs on Novi Sad, lasted eleven weeks during which NATO couldn't harm Yugoslavian army, so instead turned to civilian infrastructure like roads, bridges, railways, coal plants, electrical system, television buildings and even Chinese embassy building. The direct damage estimates vary but 4 billion dollars is generally accepted (this is not counting military installations, buildings and infrastructures because in a way those were legitime targets, although it remains to be explained how can any target be legitimate in an illegitimate aggression). Total damage estimates comes between 30 and 35 billion dollars.

Novi Sad Varadin bridge.
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/5/5d/250px-Novi-sad_bridge1999.jpg

Novi Sad Liberty bridge
http://www.webheaven.co.yu/nato/most_slobode.JPG

National Television building
http://www.ce-review.org/01/15/images/serbianews15_rts.jpg

Passenger train on a bridge
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904/13/nato.attack.03/link.passenger.train.jpg

Chinese Embassy
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9905/12/china.xenophobia/link.chinese.embassy.jpg

Downtown Belgrade
http://www.kosovo.net/usce.jpg

But, what is much more important than buildings or the damage to the economy, during the aggression 1500 soldiers and police officers died and 1500 civilians also lost their lives, of which 89 were children.

What is also interesting is that paradox terms like "humanitarian bombings" were frequently used by NATO to describe their actions. In the end, when NATO finally got its forces on the ground ending the supposed mass murders of Albanians, right in front there noses, we've seen exodus of about 200,000 Serbs and other non-Albanians, villages burned, churches, monasteries and other holy places desecrated, not to mention murders.

This is the basis of indepented state of Kosovo. I don't know what else to say except: "God bless America and NATO..."

KrooK

03-25-2008, 10:46

GOD BLESS POLAND!!!
Finally we reach an agreement :)
I can only add
AND ITS BRAVE WARRIORS!!!!

Brenus

04-05-2008, 08:31

"THE United Nations war crimes tribunal in The Hague has acquitted a former commander of the rebel Kosovo Liberation Army of all charges of war crimes in a decision that could inflame anti-Kosovo sentiment in Serbia weeks after Kosovo declared independence.
Ramush Haradinaj, who briefly served as prime minister of Kosovo three years ago, was found not guilty of the murder, persecution, rape and torture of Kosovo Serb civilians and some ethnic Albanians.
The crimes were said to have been carried out by men under his command in 1998, when the rebels fought to free their largely ethnic Albanian region from Serbian rule.
Another rebel commander, Idriz Balaj, was also acquitted, while a third defendant, Lahi Brahimaj, was sentenced to six years in prison for torture and cruel treatment of prisoners.
The two men are expected to receive heroes' welcomes on their return home.
In summarising the verdict, the judges said the trial had many shortcomings, including vague evidence and widespread fear among witnesses, suggesting the full version of events had not been told.
The full judgment is not yet available, but in their summary, the judges gave weight to evident intimidation of witnesses, stressing that although the court heard almost 100 witnesses, they had great difficulty in getting many to testify freely. They said they granted 34 witnesses permission to hide their identities, that 18 were subpoenaed because they refused to testify and that others said they dared not talk once they were in court.
Prosecutors complained repeatedly about pressure on the witnesses, saying that it had been greater than in any other trial at the tribunal.
Those most afraid, prosecutors said, were former fellow rebel fighters who had been expected to testify as insiders. At least three designated witnesses were killed before the trial, prosecutors said.

For Serbs, the acquittal of two of the former rebel commanders, whose forces were backed and supported by the West, is likely to be viewed as one more insult.

Kosovo has long been portrayed as a victim of Serbia. Only one other case at the tribunal has focused on abuses and killings by Kosovo Liberation Army fighters, although human rights groups have documented numerous killings and instances of mistreatment of those not siding with the rebels."

I can’t wait the non-guilty verdict for Croat Ante Gotovina. I suppose the 200,000 Serbs would have left their home on voluntarily basis.
Killing Serbs is not a crime for The Hague… The farce is on...:clown:

Banquo's Ghost

04-05-2008, 09:26

Brenus, unless the text above is entirely your own work, you need to provide a credit or source and ideally a link.

Not doubting your assertions, it's just a courtesy to the original authors.

:bow:

Furious Mental

04-05-2008, 12:55

This is one of the reasons why international law continues to have so little credibility; its strongest governmental backers (liberal interventionists) are content to ignore it when it is convenient for them.

Adrian II

04-05-2008, 15:12

In the end, when NATO finally got its forces on the ground ending the supposed mass murders of Albanians, right in front there noses, we've seen exodus of about 200,000 Serbs and other non-Albanians, villages burned, churches, monasteries and other holy places desecrated, not to mention murders.I am not so sure about those numbers, but it is a fact that Nato intervention provoked and condoned inverse ethnic cleansing on a massive scale, and that the practice is still going on today. The degree of western support for Albanian nationalists in Kosovo was a huge mistake, no doubt about it. The bombings didn't even rid the world of Milosevic; his early retirement had to be 'bought' later on with a huge EU aid package.

Sadly, most post-1989 humanitarian interventions have been disasters.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

04-05-2008, 16:26

Political leanings of Fragony (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1864678&postcount=45)

I knew that thread would prove useful. :2thumbsup:

Kralizec

04-05-2008, 16:39

I can’t wait the non-guilty verdict for Croat Ante Gotovina. I suppose the 200,000 Serbs would have left their home on voluntarily basis.
Killing Serbs is not a crime for The Hague… The farce is on...:clown:

...

What is your problem, exactly? The moment that the tribunal prosecutes a non-Serb you criticize it because they supposedly only do it to appease the Serbs, and when they acquit a non-Serb it's because they're out to screw them?

Furious Mental

04-05-2008, 17:31

There isn't really any doubt about the double standards at work here. It is a matter of common knowledge that Western diplomats pressured the chief prosecutor to drop the case, and when Western countries, which basically run Kosovo as a mandate territory, aren't going to cooperate with the prosecution what chance is there that the case will succeed?

Prosecutor: "We are going to prosecute X, Y, and Z. We need you stop their militia intimidating and killing witnesses."
West: "You can't do that, they are respected political leaders, we won't accede to your request."
Prosecutor: "They are war criminals."
West: "You can't prove that."
Prosecutor: "Because the witnesses are being intimidated and killed."

As has been pointed out, verdicts like this (especially when compared to the 27 year sentence given to the Bosnian Serb speaker of parliament) make it even less likely that actual Serb war criminals will ever be brought before the court, because it is irredeemably tainted with bias and/or dysfunction.

Adrian II

04-05-2008, 17:41

As has been pointed out, verdicts like this (especially when compared to the 27 year sentence given to the Bosnian Serb speaker of parliament) make it even less likely that actual Serb war criminals will ever be brought before the court, because it is irredeemably tainted with bias and/or dysfunction.Funny thing is that the U.S. fully supports this tribunal whilst refusing to join the International Criminal Court, and for the very same reasons: bias and dysfunctionality.

LeftEyeNine

04-05-2008, 18:28

IF THERE WERE NO POLES, I'D QUIT BEING A TURK TODAY !!!1111EPICEPICEPIC

WITH FULL RESPECT TO MARTIANS, OF KOORZEZ.

Oh Poland,
Shall you rise
Very high
With Turkey

I know
This does not
Sound like
A Song
Dedicated
To Two
Heroic nations

But at least
I tried
With my full
Respect to
Ray Charles

Thanks.

:poland: :smoking: :turkey: > :texas:

Sarmatian

04-05-2008, 22:06

I am not so sure about those numbers, but it is a fact that Nato intervention provoked and condoned inverse ethnic cleansing on a massive scale, and that the practice is still going on today. The degree of western support for Albanian nationalists in Kosovo was a huge mistake, no doubt about it. The bombings didn't even rid the world of Milosevic; his early retirement had to be 'bought' later on with a huge EU aid package.

Sadly, most post-1989 humanitarian interventions have been disasters.

I don't have the exact data, but 200,000 refugees, mostly Serbs but not exlusively, is a pretty accurate figure.

The bombing actually helped Milosevic. He was very low at the polls at that time, I think it was an all time low. The bombing allowed him to take the mantle of defender of the country. That's why we had ellections in the year 2000, not in the 2002 when they were scheduled. He hoped to use this to get another 5 years, but it backfired...

I can't help but wonder why those humanitarian missions have been disasters. Let's say that all those reports were true, and that Milosevic clear goal was to ethinically cleanse Kosovo of all Albanians (it seems a bit far fetched but still)... Now in that case Nato was ready to organize entire bombing campaign that involved numerous countries, spend millions/billions of dollars, act without the authorization of the UN etc... but in the other case when it already had troops on the ground, whose only responsibility was to prevent that from happening - did nothing. The question is why....

Please tell me guys, am I being paranoid here? What's the reason for it?

KrooK

04-05-2008, 22:23

Biggest problem with all these peace mission is that no one understand that if two sides are fighting war, they hear only real strenght. Not some soldiers who at least will be trying to stop them but real strenght which can destroy them easy and won't be wasting time on deliberations.
If NATO or UN sometimes behaved like Mongols ("you don't respect us so you will be killed without shadow of mercy") total number of deaths would be lower. Look at Sierra Leone - if UN attacks there and started massive killing both sides soldiers (these dumbs should be killed all IMO - no clean side) and after killing 50% told rest to stay and respect UN orders - they would do that.
Now when UN call sides to casefire it looks like Pope into mtw 2 - Pope is being listen only if you benefit from that.

And one more

LONG LIVE TURKEY - Their government case into Constitutional Courts shows us that turkish separation of powers is 10 times better than into corrupted EU.

Sarmatian

04-05-2008, 22:31

Krook, when the van comes, come quietly :laugh4:

Evil_Maniac From Mars

04-06-2008, 03:57

Now when UN call sides to casefire it looks like Pope into mtw 2 - Pope is being listen only if you benefit from that.

Now that's probably around the second point that you've ever made that I agree with.

CountArach

04-06-2008, 07:45

Finally we reach an agreement :)
I can only add
AND ITS BRAVE WARRIORS!!!!
I thought my sarcasm was too overwhelmingly obvious. I was wrong.

@ LEN - Thank you for that, you made my day :laugh4:

Brenus

04-06-2008, 15:14

Sorry: Article from the “The Sydney Morning Herald, Kosovo leader cleared after troubled trial, Marlise Simons in Paris, April 5, 2008”.:shame:

“The moment that the tribunal prosecutes a non-Serb you criticize it because they supposedly only do it to appease the Serbs,”: Ok. I see a Big misunderstanding here.
I don’t criticise the prosecution of a non-Serb because it supposed to appease the Serbs, I criticise the Tribunal for the fact that almost all non-Serbs are found none guilty.
The charges are down-sized at a ridiculous level (Gotovina charged with 35 people killed, when without any evidences and no bodies, News and The Hague talk about 20,000 “genocided” in Srebrenica…)
The Hague just prosecutes a non-Serb just to find him non-guilty…:clown:

“Please tell me guys, am I being paranoid here?” You are Serb. It is the “bomb the Serbs” politic. Sorry.:beam:

I can see the very democratic aspect of a very democratic Republic of Kosovo, repecting all minorities' human rapes, err, rights.

Boyar Son

04-06-2008, 20:05

Kosovo je srbja

Sarmatian

04-06-2008, 22:58

You are Serb. It is the “bomb the Serbs” politic. Sorry.:beam:

You know, I don't know how we (Serbs) managed to pick a fight with every powerful state in its prime. Since we came to the Balkans, we had wars and uneasy relationship with Byzantium, later with the Ottomans during their prime. After they became too weak we switched to Habsburgs, with them gone we managed to piss of Hitler's Germany, immediately after that we said piss off to the Soviet Union and now, at the beggining of the 21st century we were involved in conflict with the US. I guess that's goint to last until China takes over as number one and then we have to think of something to annoy them :laugh4:

Seriously Brenus, you need to stop defending Serbs here, you're gona lose your credibility :laugh4:

@Boyar Son

you need an "i" between "b" and "j" - Srbija

Adrian II

04-06-2008, 23:10

I guess that's goint to last until China takes over as number one and then we have to think of something to annoy them :laugh4:
Peeing off China would be the best way to end your impopularity. Le Monde would write: 'Nous sommes tous des Serbes' and all of Europe would be behind you (except Montenegro of course :laugh4: ).

Seriously, there are many encouraging developments in Serbia and in the wider region. The handling of the Montenegro issue is one of them. I hope "Kosovo" will be handled in equally peaceful fashion, new leaves will be turned and we can all go admire your beautiful capital, this time without ill-advised aerial support...

Boyar Son

04-07-2008, 00:18

@Boyar Son

you need an "i" between "b" and "j" - Srbija

Oh thanks:bow:

Brenus

04-07-2008, 11:32

"your beautiful capital": Er, Adrian, don't push too far. Belgrade isn't beautifull, except few spots, as the Fortress, perhaps the pedestrian Street (forget the name)...

Novi Sad is the town to go, with the Danube and the Strand. Nice ice creams in Dunavska Ulica, honest pizeria (I miss the Hungarian pizza), cheap beers and cigarettes (ok, I did smoke Croats ones), nice pubs, cevapi etc...

"you need to stop defending Serbs here": Err, I don't defend the Serbs as such. When they do (did) wrong I said and say it. I am against double standarts.
And my best man is a Serb. The translation is Kum, so you know what that means. In fact, I have to...:beam:

Adrian II

04-07-2008, 12:29

"your beautiful capital": Er, Adrian, don't push too far. Belgrade isn't beautifull, except few spots [..] Novi Sad is the town to go, with the Danube and the Strand.Friends and colleagues who have been there tell me Belgrade rocks. They say it's like Paris, only with twice the sense of humour and twice the number of pretty girls. That's good enough for me, even though Novi Sad may be beautiful as well. Novi is more intimate, more intellectual, more ethnically mixed than Belgrade, right?

drone

04-07-2008, 15:49

You know, I don't know how we (Serbs) managed to pick a fight with every powerful state in its prime. Since we came to the Balkans, we had wars and uneasy relationship with Byzantium, later with the Ottomans during their prime. After they became too weak we switched to Habsburgs, with them gone we managed to piss of Hitler's Germany, immediately after that we said piss off to the Soviet Union and now, at the beggining of the 21st century we were involved in conflict with the US. I guess that's goint to last until China takes over as number one and then we have to think of something to annoy them :laugh4:
Apparently, Serbians have a real problem with authority. ~;) Start importing some punk bands to the US, our kids have lost their edge, and the music sucks. :yes:

Brenus

04-07-2008, 16:04

“They say it's like Paris, only with twice the sense of humour and twice the number of pretty girls”
Pure Propaganda: the Germans during Operation Punishment in 1941, almost destroyed Belgrade. And what the Germans missed the Americans finished it in 1944.
Tito rebuilt Belgrade in a pure Stalinistic Architectural Style (see Novi Beograd) and all the Danube River Banks are either factory either buildings looking like factories.
Knez Mihajlova, I remember the name, is quite good (French Cultural Centre is there) but all other streets are more like New York Style than old Paris.
For pretty girls, yes, they are. The melting pot between West East and South had created really beautiful girls.
If you go South (in Sumadija), moustache starts to appear.
And do like Serbian sense of humour… A black and cruel one: After they shot down a B2, they print a card stating: “Sorry, we didn’t seen it”.

Adrian II

04-07-2008, 16:17

And do like Serbian sense of humour… A black and cruel one: After they shot down a B2, they print a card stating: “Sorry, we didn’t seen it”.An F-117 if I remember correctly. And if I remember correctly again, their speaker said: 'Of course, if only we had known that it was invisible we wouldn't have shot it down'...

Vladimir

04-07-2008, 16:41

An F-117 if I remember correctly. And if I remember correctly again, their speaker said: 'Of course, if only we had known that it was invisible we wouldn't have shot it down'...

An F-117 traveling along frequently traveled and publicized flight path in our effort to fight another "clean" war. :shame:

Adrian II

04-07-2008, 16:44

An F-117 traveling along frequently traveled and publicized flight path in our effort to fight another "clean" war. :shame:Do you know more about that? There was talk of a Russian magnetic device used by the Serbs. Others say it was just a lucky shot, still others claim the plane crashed due to malfunctioning software (which it uses a lot because it has no large mechanical stabilizers). Yet others spoke of a Serb spy in Nato headquarters who briefed Belgrade on flight paths.

Kralizec

04-07-2008, 17:00

Somebody once told me that the Serbs managed to screw up the guidance of plane launched missiles by using rigged microwave ovens. Does anyone know if this is true? (or even possible? :inquisitive: )

Vladimir

04-07-2008, 17:03

Do you know more about that? There was talk of a Russian magnetic device used by the Serbs. Others say it was just a lucky shot, still others claim the plane crashed due to malfunctioning software (which it uses a lot because it has no large mechanical stabilizers). Yet others spoke of a Serb spy in Nato headquarters who briefed Belgrade on flight paths.

No sources I can recall due to the passage of time. If it was the result of some Russian "magic" device the scenario would become very complicated. Who crewed the device? How did it get there? Why weren't more of them shot down? Magnetic devices are good at spotting large amounts of submerged metal but not so good at finding plastic floating in the sky.

Truth is that we did submit our flight plans to some foreign (or the actual) FAA and the details weren't classified. The Russians may have a hand in the shootdown but it was most likely in the form of information.

Sarmatian

04-07-2008, 20:12

Well, I believe we hit one more. It managed to land in Hungary but it was beyond repairs. One could be a lucky shot but two lucky shots are improbable so there was definitly something at work. I've heard many theories ranging from using some advanced russian equipment to using some ancient ww2 radars that didn't have some sort of filters (I'm not very well versed in this militaty stuff) that managed to spot the plane. Of course spies and intelligence leaks are somewhere in between. But nothing official is known.
When the first one was down, commander of AA defence at the press conference only confirmed that it was down and said "Don't ask me how". So I guess it will remain a mystery for some time.

Unfortunately, 1999 bombing was anything but a "clean war". After 79 days of bombing Serbian Army wasn't even scratched, but there was a lot of civilian buildings, infrastructure, power plants, TV buildings etc.... destroyed and civilian casualties surpassed military ones...

HoreTore

04-07-2008, 20:14

destroyed and civilian casualties surpassed military ones...

Like the Serbian campaign in Kosovo, you mean?

Adrian II

04-07-2008, 20:18

Concerning the Russian device, the spy or the radar, I suppose there are reasonable explanations for everything - if only there was a shred of evidence...

But Sarmatian sure has a point about 'clean wars'. If you terrorize the enemy by hitting civilians, radio stations and unimportant bridges, but no enemy soldiers, how cool is that? :shame:

Sarmatian

04-07-2008, 21:13

Like the Serbian campaign in Kosovo, you mean?

That was used as an excuse for the aforementioned "clean war". Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dead Albanian civilians, mass executed on football stadiums. But the problem is that Hudini rose from the grave and made them disappear along with that WMD in Iraq, that bastard...

Sarmatian

04-07-2008, 23:17

Since we're talking about serbian humour I thought it would be fun to post some graffitis that were written during the bombing. Unfortunately, 90% of them lose the joke in translation I'll post several that don't...

1. Last phase of the war - Humanitarian action of saving Nato

2. Give one radio locator (for guiding missiles) to Madeleine Albright - she needs to be hit with something hard

3. :daisy: Apaches, we've had enough of Indians, send some cowboys

4. 13 nominations for Academy Award - Saving of private Stoun, Ramirez, Gonzales and Zelko

5. Mr. Clinton, come to visit us, signed Gavrilo Princip

6. Another F117A taken down and now sports...

7. It's not true that CNN lies! They're right when they say: "You are watching CNN..."

8. Monica, let go of that, you don't know where it's been...

9. Contest: Collect 6 radio locators and you get a Tomahawk, organized by USAF

10. You amateurs, you can't even make an invisible plane properly!

11. To Russians: Don't be afraid, Serbia is with you...

12. Clinton to his wife: "Where is our dog?" Hillary: "Tony? We left him in England."

13. Clinton: "Monica was good, but Tony's better"

14. In Serbia we finally saw the invisible (graffiti in Skopje, Macedonia)

15. I'm selling F 117A, low mileage, in good condition, can be sold in parts.

16. It's your brains that's invisible

17. I'm selling a piece of arable land in Budjanovci (small village in Srem where F 117 fell) and I'll throw in a stealth plane for free...

18. Sorry about that. Do you have an F 118?

19. Budjanovci - Nato 1:0. Well, Budjanovci did have a home court advantage

HoreTore

04-08-2008, 07:14

That was used as an excuse for the aforementioned "clean war". Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dead Albanian civilians, mass executed on football stadiums. But the problem is that Hudini rose from the grave and made them disappear along with that WMD in Iraq, that bastard...

The Serbian treatment of it's own citizens was uncivilized, and you got an uncivilized response. Who wudda thunk it :dizzy2:

Brenus

04-08-2008, 07:32

HoreTore

04-08-2008, 07:59

“The Serbian treatment of it's own citizens was uncivilized, and you got an uncivilized response”: Can’t really comment on the first statement, however to answer to uncivilised by uncivilised means is a little bit short.

That is is. But it's how our world is being run. After Milosevic sent his military, there was no other option but war. If he had sent police forces instead and tried diplomacy, there would be no war(assuming they didn't gun down people).

Act civilized, and you get treated civilized. Act like a barbarian, and you get a barbarian response.

Well, mostly anyway.

Adrian II

04-08-2008, 07:59

Can’t really comment on the first statement, however to answer to uncivilised by uncivilised means is a little bit short.Particularly if those means are used in a 'humanitarian' intervention. If you can call it that anyway. The use of ground troops had been excluded from the start and Nato didn't know what to bomb half the time. Yet every night we saw Nato spokesman Jamie Shea talking out of his Cockney rectum about its attacks on refugee convoys, the town centre of Pristina or hospitals, about the number of Serbian tanks destroyed, about the use of depleted uranium munitions or about indications that the Albanians had started their own campaign of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.

Sarmatian

04-08-2008, 08:29

That is is. But it's how our world is being run. After Milosevic sent his military, there was no other option but war. If he had sent police forces instead and tried diplomacy, there would be no war(assuming they didn't gun down people).

Act civilized, and you get treated civilized. Act like a barbarian, and you get a barbarian response.

Well, mostly anyway.

And yet again you show your ignorance. Only police forces were used. Army only provided intelligence, and I believe special forces were used in a few occassions. That's the reason there were so many police casualties (around 500 in 1997,1998 and beggining of 1999), they weren't really equiped and trained to deal with organized terrorists with military equipment and training.

There were only 2000 casualties (and use the term only very loosely here, only in comparison to inflated figures Nato presented, for me 1 casualty is too many), around 500 Serbian policemen and most of the rest KLA members.

Now, no doubt Milosevic methods were rather brutal often with excessive force, but were far less brutal than the methods KLA and later Nato used....

CountArach

04-08-2008, 10:57

And yet again you show your ignorance. Only police forces were used. Army only provided intelligence, and I believe special forces were used in a few occassions. That's the reason there were so many police casualties (around 500 in 1997,1998 and beggining of 1999), they weren't really equiped and trained to deal with organized terrorists with military equipment and training.
What does it matter who did it? IT WAS DONE!

Brenus

04-08-2008, 19:24

“IT WAS DONE!”: What: The burning of the villages, the "ethnic cleansing"? It did happen AFTER the start of the bombing campaign. Well, the Serbs couldn’t retaliate against the US, could they? I even remember this pathetic episode when the Serbs captured 2 US soldiers, and the entire world yelling because they were in Macedonia, out of the game…

“Act like a barbarian, and you get a barbarian response.” So basically you agree with Milosevic’s politic… Because it was the KLA who put bombs in Refugees camps, which started the terror campaign against the scatted rural Serbian population, kidnapping, rapes and torture…
So, according to you, they got what they deserved.

I forgot… Serbian victims don’t count…:clown:

Marius Dynamite

04-13-2008, 02:45

Beware this post will include ignorance!

IMO if the Kosovo people are unique enough and want to be their own country, let them. Why not?

In the UK right now they are talking about Scotland becoming its own country. I am from Scotland but I get the sick feeling that lots of Scots are going to want independance because they watched Braveheart a few times.

We went through 2 World Wars together, Scotland and England. Neither would exist without the other, this is our Island that we share... WE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE!! The way it is at the moment is brilliant. But it is a fact that there are more fools in a country than not, so Scotland may well end up "independant" because Mel Gibsons fantastic acting abilities.

sigh

Evil_Maniac From Mars

04-13-2008, 07:42

Phew... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/12/warcrimes.kosovo?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront)

Meneldil

04-13-2008, 10:44

And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that.

Some people here never cease to amaze me.
Welcome back to the 30's crappy nationalistic era.

Viking

04-13-2008, 10:59

IMO if the Kosovo people are unique enough and want to be their own country, let them. Why not?

Exactly. The resistance against a free Kosovo stems from what I'd like to call neo-imperialism, lacking a better word. Lands and people should belong to a certain state against the will of the majority of said people.

Sarmatian

04-13-2008, 14:22

Do you realize you just made a case for partitioning of just about every country in the world with that sentence?

HoreTore

04-13-2008, 18:28

Do you realize you just made a case for partitioning of just about every country in the world with that sentence?

And how is hat bad? If people want their own country, I say go for it.

Can't really care either way. I don't support those who wants to secede, nor do I support those who wants to keep the country together.

So says a resident from a country who violated international law when it declared independence.

Brenus

04-13-2008, 23:21

And how is hat bad? If people want their own country, I say go for it.” Well, it shouldn’t THAT bad if the new “republic” wouldn’t insist to keep in her borders people who don’t want to be part of it. The Kosovo wants International Untouchable Borders, so protected by the same law that they broke. Kosovo refuse partition to the Serbs, but want partition from Serbia. Kosovo declared it will not accept parallel institutions which they practice a lot. Kosovo just wants to prevent others to do what it did.:beam:
What justice a Serb can expect from a Kosovar Court, when you see what The Hague did…:clown:
Plus the fact that this partition was impose by force, namely the NATO bombing campaign followed by the Ethnic Cleansing of the none Albanians population under the eyes of the Vice-Roy Kouchner, actually minister of Foreign Affairs in France. All this are against the International Treaties…

By the way, a new intellectual, French, after Kouchner who recognises he lied during the Bosnian War about the Concentration Camp, Simone Weil, first Female minister in French History, survivor of Auschwitz, just wrote that what she saw there was nothing compare the Camps…
I can’t wait for the Memoirs of Madeleine Albright who will explain that Srebrenica massacre satellite pictures never existed…
About book, apparently Carla Del Ponte had things to say: Murderers of Serbs were never investigated… She won’t get the Pulitzer with this kind of scoop..:beam: