View Full Version : Byzantine Infantry, what are they for?
Gringoleader
10-04-2002, 05:05
They're slow, they don't fare as well against horses as spearmen and they have their hands full against urban militia. What are they for? Are they the best the Byzantians get?
Dionysus9
10-04-2002, 05:07
My problem with BYZ INF is that their morale is crap. Other than that they arent too expensive and you can pump them up to do quite well.
The best Byzantines get is Varangian Guard. Those boys kick some serious ass.
Quote Originally posted by Gringoleader:
. . .Are they the best the Byzantians get?[/QUOTE]
Galestrum
10-04-2002, 05:29
surely you jest, as byz infantry rock
theBlind
10-04-2002, 05:37
Quote Originally posted by Gringoleader:
They're slow, they don't fare as well against horses as spearmen [/QUOTE]
But they fare better agains horses imho than many other non-spear units. Try not to let them get charged...
Quote Originally posted by Gringoleader:
and they have their hands full against urban militia. [/QUOTE]
Nope. Maybe they have their hand full OF urban militia tropheees or something http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote Originally posted by Gringoleader:
What are they for? Are they the best the Byzantians get?[/QUOTE]
Personally I like them better than the Guards, but you must use them in formation with other units, not alone bc their morale IS crap. Or make sure they win fast.
theBlind
Quote Originally posted by Gringoleader:
They're slow, they don't fare as well against horses as spearmen and they have their hands full against urban militia. What are they for? Are they the best the Byzantians get?[/QUOTE]
Hehe...play an mp game with me, and I'll show what they're for http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Durendal
10-04-2002, 08:46
I've found Byzantine Infantry to be formidable, especially when commanded by the 7 and 8 star generals the Byzantines are so richly blessed with.
As I remember, some people here ran tests and Byz Inf defeated all spear units of equal value quite easily.
They are not invincible to horses, but that's what your Trebizond archers and Kataphraktoi are for.
In fact, the Byzantines as a faction are by far the most powerfull in the early game, their only real weekness being the speed of their cav. Alan Mercs or Steppe Cav can make up for it.
byzantine infantry are great in my opinion, i use them all the time and although they arent super units that can defeat anything they can certainly beat urban militias (even AUMs) into submition and they are very good for holding ground while you get archers or cav into position.
they are cheap enough too and come in large units so its easy enough to fill an army up with them fairly quickly.
Byz infantry are very powerful in multiplayer, and without a doubt the most useful STARTING unit in the early campaign, only the almohad urban militia is superior early in the game, and AUM are only 60 man units, while Byz Inf are 100. After the patch, Byz Inf will be even better and with a balanced Byz army backing them up, the Byz will truely be an empire as the game begins in SP.
anymapkoku
10-04-2002, 10:37
Byz infantry are pretty good and the only thing the byzantines have got. It's very important for byz to get 5-6 byz inf because if they don't win the sword fight they're dead. I guess if you can fake the other guy out with a bunch of useless spearmen while your byz inf run around and win, then byz can have a chance. Don't know if byz are the best in early though. I'd go with english/french or one of the other billion copycats. Also, guards are horrible. your money is better spent on spearmen or raising your valor and shorting some troops.
--reaverlisk
Byz inf are very nice - the problem is you can't give spear support with anything but spearmen (ahem and swiss pikemen if you cheat but that will be fixed). Throw 1-2 units of spearmen into the mix to scare off cav and you're set.
Varengian guards are much to expensive to build or buy - stay clear of them (even though they are nice to have).
Warmaker
10-04-2002, 12:22
I love the Byzantine Infantry. In the campaign you have to be careful due to their brittle morale.
During the course of the campaign, churches, cathedrals, etc. improve the Byz.Inf. by leaps and bounds by improving their morale which is their biggest weakness. Lead them with a competent leader and you can take on most armies.
I've had more than enough armies composed 75% of Byz.Infantry take on armies from varying factions successfully with tweaks to my tactics.
A few more reasons to love Byz.Inf. in the campaign:
- Very quickly accessable. Town gaurd, spearmaker, and swordsmith buildings are only required to build them.
- For 100 men, you pay 175 flourins. That's cheap and you can field good numbers of them.
-- With appropriate upgrades they can still be reliable late in the game, just be sure to improve the morale!
Other than the formation size and cost, I feel they have alot of staying power. Only the most upgraded, highest cost units can really plow through them head on. Cavalry can be a problem but proper use of terrain and additional Byz.Inf. units to flank the horsemen can equal things out though. How much for a fancy 40 strong formation of knights? How many good Byz.Inf. units can you get for the cost?
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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!
I believe that Byz Inf is one of the most valuable unit in the early game. Believe me I am playing Turks (early, hard) and they are giving me a real headache http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif
IMO Gringo is only right for what he said about their speed but that is what balance is for.
You get them with Urban Militia ?? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
In my plays (SP experience) they cut my UM's into pieces http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif
When they are commanded by a 6-8 star general morale weakness is compansated and Byzantine Empire is good at producing heirs w multiple stars (I have killed 4 of them all 6 star or above)and still 3 left http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Advice for guys having similar problems:
Skirmish, skirmish , skirmish (not hard if u are Turk faction http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif )
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So said the King
So it is written
Orion I feel your pain...
I just got kicked out of Trebizond by Byzantine Infantry (they were not the only ones there but they won the battle). I used up a unit of merc Vikings and a unit of merc Feudal MAA on one of them. And they kicked my Turcomans all the way back to Rum.
I didn't know their power when I played Byzantine, but now I do.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Rosacrux
10-04-2002, 17:30
Best punch for the money, along with the AUMs, if you ask me. Very potent all-around unit.
humm, I liked them in my campaign when they had this cute like golden shield in the bottom left, and where under the flag of one of my uber general...
...for it was like seeing the LEGIONS OF ANCIENT ROME RISING AGAIN
(said in thunderous voice)
Michael the Great
10-06-2002, 00:23
Another advantage is that they come in 100 man piles,and don't cost too much.
They have thy spearmen for diner.
The fact that they are 100 man formations make them very good when fighting spearmen.
They are mainly useful for beating up the spearmen or stand togheter with the spearmen in a shield-wall.
But alone they are VERY vulnarable against horse-archers, skirmishers and archers in general.
Dwimmerlaik
10-06-2002, 04:04
Byzantine Infantry? Meet my friends the Muwahid Foot and his stylishly sexy cousin Saracen Infantry...now, ready, steady...rout!
Quote Originally posted by Dwimmerlaik:
Byzantine Infantry? Meet my friends the Muwahid Foot and his stylishly sexy cousin Saracen Infantry...now, ready, steady...rout![/QUOTE]
Au contraire, meet the Byzantine's friend - the Trebizond archer! Standing firmly behind the infantry, can ya feel the ranks being depleted? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
FacelessClock
10-06-2002, 04:59
Byz Inf will defeat most any spear unit in the game.
Byz Inf will defeat most any cavalry unit in the game.
Byz Inf will defeat most any shock unit in the game.
Their only problem is their moral. It is low, which means that if one of your units gets overwhelmed....these guys arn't unkillable.....then you can find yourself quickly facing a chain rout.
Just think about the bang for the buck, though. Other units of similar price are no where near as capable at killing an enemy.
The offset to their low morale is the fact that most Byzantine heirs and generals easily have 6 or 7 stars to begin with. This means +3 to morale before any other morale enhancing virtues.
Grifman
Warmaker
10-06-2002, 11:42
Build churches or other morale boosting buildings in provinces that produce Byz.Inf. and next thing you know their poor morale is gone. Lead them with fairly competent leaders (rank 3-4 for example), supplement them with Treb.Archers and some cavalry and you should be able to deal with most situations with that army. Byz.Inf. produced early on from Constantinople are quite formidable, esp. with the mods giving it the Cathedral (Hagia Sophia).
They're also cost effective enough to garrison troublesome provinces and be fairly able to deal with peasant uprisings. These guys kill them quick, due to the 100 man formations.
Quote Originally posted by Dawood:
But alone they are VERY vulnarable against horse-archers, skirmishers and archers in general.[/B][/QUOTE]
The same could be said for most infantry units - this is not unique to Byzantine infantry.
Grifman
Quote Originally posted by Grifman:
The same could be said for most infantry units - this is not unique to Byzantine infantry.
Grifman[/QUOTE]
Griff, the point is that they are more vulnerable than many other infantry. Their morale is very shaky and taking losses from afar is not helping the matter, MAA can handle this in a much better way.
So the way to go against Byz. Inf is to give them a moraleshake, fighting them can win the battle for you, but be sure to take advantage of the bad morale. Even a unit of Horse Archers (which would bet they rears kicked all around the map by them) can do wonders if placed fairly close to their flank.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Hakonarson
10-07-2002, 03:19
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Even a unit of Horse Archers (which would bet they rears kicked all around the map by them) can do wonders if placed fairly close to their flank.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry for being blunt, but...DUH!!
And your point is??
Any unit that isn't worried by having horse archers shooting into its flank from close range has to be suicidal!!
Hark it has nothing to do with the Horse Archers actually shooting at them, it has to do with their presence there. If you sent them in (lets say they are V0) they would actually get killed and the Byzantines would perhaps, perhaps not survive. The point is that the fast and maneuverable but very weak Horse Archers will actually be somewhat good in a melee situation without being in there.
Of course you could send in a stronger unit, but mostly you have already sent them into fray. While the HA have been kept away from the enemy and they are now great for this due to speed (getting away and getting in there) and actual situational placement (not being in a fight as all else).
Remember, that suffering losses from missiles gives -2 to morale, while having an enemy close on the flank or rear give a whupping -12 to morale, no regard to enemy strength (I had my singleman unit, a general, cause massrouts due to this) or actual ability to fight.
So all in all those pesky Horse Archers can really be worth having in very close without being in combat, a value that is way beyond their capabilities. Them killing a few men with their arrows is good, but not the point here.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Hakonarson
10-07-2002, 04:17
Krax yes that's exactly what I was talking about - the morale hit from having enemy "on" your flank is bloody dangerous and is not limited to Byz infantry!!
No it is certainly not limited to them, but it much more deadly for them. A unit of MAA would be able to cope with this much better, they will in most cases not break just because the enemy show up at the flank, the Byz will most likely rout.
So the HA can not force the MAA off the field like they can against the Byz. Inf. In that scenario the HA is only as effective as their killrate.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
FacelessClock
10-07-2002, 04:32
In single player, yes.
In multi-player, valour can make up for the moral problems.
And don't forget that they get several traits dealing with their moral.
And you are also assuming that a byz player allows your horse archers to be there. Byz does have spearmen, archers, and cavalry of their own, you know.
While you are right, Faceless, most of the post concerning the Byz. Inf. here are SP... So yes my post was about SP.
MP, has too many variables for you to make any other statement than, flank! And still be sure that in any case it is still good.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
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