Pahlava and Bactria navies.

[Kongeslask]

I noticed that if the Pahlava seize a port that can make ships, the only ones they can build are basic unarmed boats, and the description implies that it is a generic type representing nomads having simple boats built for them. But was the historical Parthian Empire really that weak in naval matters? It seems likely that they would use whatever types of ships were standard along the Persian gulf for trade and military purposes. What does the historical evidence say?

I also noticed that if Bactria controls the port in the Indus valley, they can build standard hellenic ships up to tetrereis. This seems a bit odd to me - would a landlocked faction with a hellenic ruling class really summon shipbuilders from the Mediterranean (they would have none of their own, owing to their lack of a coast) instead of using local Indian designs? I imagine the historical evidence is thin on the ground, but what would be most likely for them to use?

[Sarkiss]

not sure about Bactria, but IIRC Parthians had trade colonies set all the way into Africa so there ought to be some sort of not only trade but military (for guarding this trade) fleet. plus the Acheamenids had a strong fleet back in a days... hopefully TPC can elaborate on this.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Achemenid Fleet in Mediteranean was composed of fleets from Phoenicia, Cyprus and Ionian Greeks. Partians at the start are simple nomads, so the basic ship is max they should get. If reforms were working for ships then more ships would be available after reform for Parthians.

Baktrians are greeks, and that's why they were allowed to build all hellenic types. Importing shipbuilders is not that strange - Alexander had dragged them with his army to build him fleet on the Indus.

[Kongeslask]

Would it be possible to make it so that the Pahlava can build a basic shipyard to make transport boats, and then make upgrades to the yard enabling more advanced types dependant on the presence of the "Reformed Parthian government" building?


Achemenid Fleet in Mediteranean was composed of fleets from Phoenicia, Cyprus and Ionian Greeks.

I knew that already, but surely there must have been some naval activity around the Persian gulf even back then?

[The Persian Cataphract]

The Parthians were more infatuated with naval matters than we usually give them credit for; They had an immense trading network, and thanks to their mercantile branches in Characene and the Vâzarangîg Clan of Persis, they did indeed establish trade outposts as far as coastal Africa and far beyond Southern India. They did not only adopt ship-building techniques from their Greek predecessors or the Indian merchants, but did develop their own technology which improved the rigs for the monsoon winds, according to a few, but very intriguing discoveries in large Partho-Sassanian shipwrecks, especially around the old port city of Siraf/Sirap.

Now these were large ships, and the vessels (Pottery) used to transport the commodities differ fundamentally from the Mediterranean counterparts, probably for the accomodation of the different sea-side climate. Here's an underwater photography from a discovery made in September 2006 by ICHTO, in co-operation with local fishermen:

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/General/Partho-Sasanan_Ship.jpg

This trading network must have been huge, and indeed, the Periplous of the Erythraean Sea attests of this by literati; Archaeologically Parthian coins have been found far away from the customary Parthian borders, and there is even a controversial theory of Philippine island of Pelawan to be a cognate of "Pahlavân", which means "Parthian/Champion". Dismissing it as mere coincidence, the furthest evidence of Parthian influence would be the Cham jurisdiction in Cambodia and the southern Han-Chinese ports in the Malay and Viet archipelago, and the old Kilwa coast, where four Parthian coins were found (Along with one Sassanian coin). This mastery of trading attests only to Parthian worldly cunning, and another factor to their erudite sense of commerce.

However, due to historical reasons we cannot give them a fleet, beyond the capacity of mercenary captains; We do not have mercenary fleets, unfortunately. The only post-Achaemenid Iranian instance of a proper navy is only first recorded during the reign of Chosroës I "The Just" and during the campaigns of Shâhîn and Shahrbarâz, and an instance of the Persian army retreating in boats during the Islamic invasions. The Persian Gulf, let alone the Caspian Sea, due to political but also environmental factors differed from the Mediterranean in instances of criminal activities, and as such, no military fleet was ever really required.

[Kongeslask]

That is actually quite interesting - any worthwhile literature on the subject of these Indian Ocean tradelinks?

Out of curiosity, what were Indo-Greek merchant and military navies like? Are IG coins as widespread as the Parthian and Sassanian ones? Did they really use only Hellenic ship types? How did they use whatever vessels they had? Any info on this would be appreciated.

[pezhetairoi]

Hmm, if I recall correctly, the IG empire never made it to a seacoast.

[Kongeslask]

On Wikipedia there is a map indicating that their territory included quite a bit of coast. Of course, it could be inaccurate

[konny]

On Wikipedia there is a map indicating that their territory included quite a bit of coast. Of course, it could be inaccurate

According to the discussion on the English Wiki site, the map(s) of the Indo-Greek empire seems to be all more or less guesswork/debatable when it comes to details.