View Full Version : Proportionality.
Talking about a dutch case that is quite the talk here, and I am kinda interested in dutch responses only because they couldn't have missed it, but feel free to hop in.
Just in case, it's about a woman, who was robbed in Amsterdam, the usual suspects grabbed her bag, in response she put the car in reverse and accidently crushed [her assailant] and his 40 braincells between a pole and her car. National sympathy for this women is going through the roof, and the general opinion about this dead robber is have a nice death that's the risk of the trade b-b-b-bye, robbed too many old and sick screw you I hope it hurted very badly and preferably for a very long time. After 3 years of deaththreats and having to live in shelter for obvious reasons she was finally dragged into court despite being on the edge of a nervous breakdown, friendly reporter told me most that came out of it was 'I don't want to be here I don't want to be here' she's a mess, and that with 200 supporters hissing from above who see the fundamental right to rob as the sixth pillar.
What do you brainacs make out of this one, because I think she is being sacrificed for the greater good, which means no riots in Cohen's den, would be terrible for his carreer after all.
KukriKhan
02-21-2008, 18:29
Link please (even if in Dutch). Otherwise we just have your account.
Link please (even if in Dutch). Otherwise we just have your account.
No english links I know of sorry. I pretty much covered it all, and I can't give the name of my contact there. You will have to do with what I give you for now.
Dutch link, but bablefish won't do here
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/1207061.html#comments
I would love to say that this is a great injustice, but I named the topic proportionanlity for a reason, robbing someone is what the absolute filth of humanity does but it's no crime that deserves death-penalty. I don't blame this lady, lived in Amsterdam for two years and white people have no rights there. She is a black from suriname, and she lost her rights as well now, that is where we are now, only muslims have rights the rest of us have rules.
Vladimir
02-21-2008, 19:15
Talking about a dutch case that is quite the talk here, and I am kinda interested in dutch responses only because they couldn't have missed it, but feel free to hop in.
Just in case, it's about a woman, who was robbed in Amsterdam, the usual suspects grabbed her bag, in response she put the car in reverse and accidently crushed [her assailant] and his 40 braincells between a pole and her car. National sympathy for this women is going through the roof, and the general opinion about this dead robber is have a nice death that's the risk of the trade b-b-b-bye, robbed too many old and sick screw you I hope it hurted very badly and preferably for a very long time. After 3 years of deaththreats and having to live in shelter for obvious reasons she was finally dragged into court despite being on the edge of a nervous breakdown, friendly reporter told me most that came out of it was 'I don't want to be here I don't want to be here' she's a mess, and that with 200 supporters hissing from above who see the fundamental right to rob as the sixth pillar.
What do you brainacs make out of this one, because I think she is being sacrificed for the greater good, which means no riots in Cohen's den, would be terrible for his carreer after all.
42!
Rodion Romanovich
02-21-2008, 20:01
Talking about a dutch case that is quite the talk here, and I am kinda interested in dutch responses only because they couldn't have missed it, but feel free to hop in.
Just in case, it's about a woman, who was robbed in Amsterdam, the usual suspects grabbed her bag, in response she put the car in reverse and accidently crushed [her assailant] and his 40 braincells between a pole and her car. National sympathy for this women is going through the roof, and the general opinion about this dead robber is have a nice death that's the risk of the trade b-b-b-bye, robbed too many old and sick screw you I hope it hurted very badly and preferably for a very long time. After 3 years of deaththreats and having to live in shelter for obvious reasons she was finally dragged into court despite being on the edge of a nervous breakdown, friendly reporter told me most that came out of it was 'I don't want to be here I don't want to be here' she's a mess, and that with 200 supporters hissing from above who see the fundamental right to rob as the sixth pillar.
What do you brainacs make out of this one, because I think she is being sacrificed for the greater good, which means no riots in Cohen's den, would be terrible for his carreer after all.
Interesting legal case. From what I know of laws, there should be a trial for this woman, but of course (assuming your description is correct, which is hard to validate without a link) it would be a scandal if it ended with anything else but her going free and the judge deeming it to be self-defense.
However, by the same laws, those who came with the death threats to her should also go to trial. And if they get anything but a lengthy punishment for illegal threats, it's a scandal by the laws of most European countries.
--
Who are the "usual suspects", by the way?
Rodion Romanovich
02-21-2008, 20:03
It seems Babelfish did work:
The public prosecutor has required no less than THIRTY months cell against Germaine C. THIRTY months because she squeezed to death veelplegend, tasjesrovend, assaulting kloodtzakje in 2005, accidentally in obscurity. Gevalletje ' clearred state netjes '. But according to justice violence was ' disproportioneel '. Incomprehensiblely and to explain. Ms is three years from dato a mental wreck as a result of the action of Ali ell Bejjati and the threats of its 40 still in life is rovers. Incomprehensiblely also because Germaine the same public prosecutor at least six months work saved and the complete judicial system, reclassification and social service barrels to man hours by pressing the stalk male with its nose has saved on the facts. Pay attention, however, it goes for a requirement, the judge pronounces sentence over two weeks. There is therefore still hope * kuch *...
Rodion Romanovich
02-21-2008, 20:06
It seems Babelfish did work:
Interesting, it's half-readable even though there's some Dutch woorden in there :wink: ...
Well, why didn't her layer claim she was temporarily lost mental control at the time? It's odd how an unprovoked killer can claim that, but someone in a very scary robbery victim situation can't...
Seems the law is pretty messed up in Dutch-land... again ~:(
Rodion Romanovich
02-21-2008, 20:09
Oh common.
Out of interest, how would you define the group "usual suspects"?
KukriKhan
02-21-2008, 20:12
Google is your friend. Story in English (http://lawandorderroybean.blogspot.com/2007/07/woman-who-killed-purse-snatcher-faces.html).
Out of interest, how would you define the group "usual suspects"?
Those that simply don't belong here? They rob grannies and hiss at dutch girls screw them, we have chinese, hindus, everything, we don't need the islam to channel our dark side. Fed up, tired, extremily cynical and very very angry.
Rodion Romanovich
02-21-2008, 20:20
Those that simply don't belong here? They rob grannies and hiss at dutch girls screw them, we have chinese, hindus, everything, we don't need the islam to channel our dark side. Fed up, tired, extremily cynical and very very angry.
Ok, I was hoping you would say "those that are receiving special positive treatment for no reason whatsoever", but this answer of yours is quite good too. I was just a little annoyed about the word "pillar" in your post above which makes a subtle association to "muslim", which isn't the causality in this case. The causality is obviously that they are allowed to immigrate in too large numbers even when they don't need it, and receive special positive treatment and stand above the law in a sense, due to PC people thinking it's racism to NOT let all immigrants stand above the law.
Also out of curiosity, are there no political parties in the Netherlands who are against massive unchecked immigration and special positive treatment for immigrants?
Or, is it only Denmark and Austria who dare take a stance against the segregation problems and resolve them in a morally correct and peaceful way (by having equality before the law for all, and not increasing segregation by faster immigration than the country can handle) rather than either causing chaos (French riots) or letting go and waiting for more segregation problems to build up (Dutch situation, it seems?)?
Edit: tbh I think Denmark will be one of the countries with least segregation problems if they have the guts to continue to stand up against the problem, whereas those that let go too much, and have too much PC policies, will be the countries most likely to see massive racial violence in a few decades from now.
Ser Clegane
02-21-2008, 20:21
Looking at the version Kukri posted, I think the prosecution is entirely justified.
This is hardly self-defense...
Tribesman
02-21-2008, 20:32
What is the penalty for causing death through reckless driving in Holland .
She is clearly guilty of that charge .
In fact she would be guilty of causing death through dangerous driving too .
Now there will be some mitigating factors which should be shown in her sentencing , but there can be no doubt that she is guilty .
Also out of curiosity, are there no political parties in the Netherlands who are against massive unchecked immigration and special positive treatment for immigrants?
Oh, the netherlands is going to be an interesting place the next months.
In fact she would be guilty of causing death through dangerous driving too .
Yes, hence proportionality
Looking at the version Kukri posted, I think the prosecution is entirely justified.
This is hardly self-defense...
We don't have that here.
HoreTore
02-21-2008, 20:37
Fortunately, we don't have castle laws here anymore...
If she intended to kill him because he stole, it's clearly murder.
If it happened accidentally, then it's manslaughter or release.
HoreTore
02-21-2008, 20:40
What is the penalty for causing death through reckless driving in Holland .
She is clearly guilty of that charge .
In fact she would be guilty of causing death through dangerous driving too .
Now there will be some mitigating factors which should be shown in her sentencing , but there can be no doubt that she is guilty .
....Unless she can prove to be criminally insane/temporary insanity/whatever-the-english-term-is-you-know-what-I-mean
Uesugi Kenshin
02-21-2008, 22:13
From that article that Kukri posted it definitely looks like the woman should have just called the cops, rather than chasing her scooter-riding robbers and killing one of them. I think it's entirely justifiable that she be charged.
Self-defense is understandable, but this wasn't self-defense. The perps were fleeing the scene and weren't threatening her or anything. She should have just called the cops, canceled any credit cards or checks she may have had in her purse and gone on with her life...
....Unless she can prove to be criminally insane/temporary insanity/whatever-the-english-term-is-you-know-what-I-mean
temporary insanity over a stolen purse??:dizzy2:
it´s not like she was in fear for her life or anything.
Papewaio
02-21-2008, 23:24
You guys are missing the point. A woman, reverse driving fast enough to run down a scooter. That must be a first. :inquisitive: :clown:
=][=
On a more serious note, killing someone to retrieve a purse is disproportionate.
I doubt she will get as much time as if she ran down someone who cut her off in traffic. But I don't think capital punishment should be in the realms of the individual.
Goofball
02-22-2008, 00:30
Seems like a case of murder, at worst, or involuntary manslaughter, at best, to me. Throw the book at her and let a jury decide.
Northnovas
02-22-2008, 00:52
El Bejjati had been convicted before of purse theft and was awaiting trial on armed robbery charges when he died.
I guess it doesn't matter what country you live but a classic case of the justice sytem failing to protect society. How did he make bail with a serious charge of armed robbery and having a criminal record for theft? Hopefully she will not be made an example in her sentencing if found guilty.
Really a sad situation all around.
Wasn't her intention too kill him, was an accident, so no murder or manslaughter. She has been in hiding for 3 years and is about to have a nervous breakdown because of all the threats. Now she has to go to jail for 2,5 years. Had the little prick been in jail where he belonged he would still be alive, if he wasn't a thief he would still be alive. He is not the victim here. Good riddance.
Ser Clegane
02-22-2008, 09:10
Wasn't her intention too kill him, was an accident, so no murder or manslaughter.
From the article:
The national broadcaster, NOS news, reported that the woman had told police she wanted only to "bump" the scooter.
If she really had the intention to "bump" him, this was certainly not an "accident"
According to this Wikipedia-article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter#Involuntary_manslaughter)it could well qualify as "involuntary manslaughter".
There should of course be mitigating circumstances, i.e. the fact that after the theft she was naturally quite upset.
While this helps to explain her action, it should not excuse it.
(that the thief perhaps should not have been walking free at that point of time in the first place cannot be an excuse either)
Personally I think this should have gone to court much sooner - before her going into hiding for three years.
There should of course be mitigating circumstances, i.e. the fact that after the theft she was naturally quite upset.
While this helps to explain her action, it should not excuse it.
I think it does, the robber being dead is somewhat harsh but it suits me just fine , and it wasn't the first time she got robbed, north-african youths are a real plague in Amsterdam, especially for women and the elder. She should be released at once there is only one victim here.
HoreTore
02-22-2008, 11:10
I think it does, the robber being dead is somewhat harsh but it suits me just fine , and it wasn't the first time she got robbed, north-african youths are a real plague in Amsterdam, especially for women and the elder. She should be released at once there is only one victim here.
No. A man got killed. What her "intention" was when she ran her car into the scooter doesn't matter at all. What matters is the result. For example, if I punch you, and I just intend you to hurt a little, but I accidentally hit you in just that spot causing you to die from it, then I'm a murderer. Plain and simple. She hit the scooter, and the man died. So she's a murderer.
Accept responsibility for what you do, etc etc
Ser Clegane
02-22-2008, 11:16
For example, if I punch you, and I just intend you to hurt a little, but I accidentally hit you in just that spot causing you to die from it, then I'm a murderer.
Actually you are not a murderer in this case as it was not your intention to kill.
HoreTore
02-22-2008, 11:19
Actually you are not a murderer in this case as it was not your intention to kill.
That doesn't matter when the result ended in a kill.
At least that's how it works in our law system. For example, if a pedestrian suddenly jumps into the street where I'm driving, and I hit and kill him, then I'll be charged(and convicted of) with manslaughter.
In my country, manslaughter is not the same as murder.
NFor example, if I punch you, and I just intend you to hurt a little, but I accidentally hit you in just that spot causing you to die from it, then I'm a murderer. Plain and simple.
That doesn't make you a murderer, it makes me unlucky and kinda dead. If there is no intention it can not be murder/manslaughter, I don't believe dutch law has such a thing such as involuntary manslaughter.
HoreTore
02-22-2008, 11:36
That doesn't make you a murderer, it makes me unlucky and kinda dead. If there is no intention it can not be murder/manslaughter, I don't believe dutch law has such a thing such as involuntary manslaughter.
It's murder because I have to consider the eventual consequences of my actions. I should/have to know that if I hit you, there is a chance you will die. Just like she should have known that if she bumped that scooter with her car, there was a chance that the guy would die.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
02-22-2008, 12:00
You have to prove Mens Rea, guilty mind. If she intended to kill she is a murderer, otherwise it's manslaughter. Over here if someone jumps infront of your car and you haven't been drinking you are usually aquitted.
Be a bit lighter on HoreTore, in his law system everything may count as murder but then murderers aren't thrown into a dark pit for the rest of their lives, they reside on a nice comfy island, get all sorts of free activities and are released after few years to become useful members of soviety, if you see that in relation to, for example the United States or Saudi Arabia, I'd rather be guilty of multiple murders in Norway than manslaughter in the US or SA. :sweatdrop:
Louis VI the Fat
02-22-2008, 12:55
The woman, identified as Germaine C., 45, was in her car when the teenager, identified as Ali el Bejjati, grabbed her purse from the back seat and then hopped on a scooter driven by a friend, prosecutors said Friday.
The woman chased them with her car in reverse and hit the scooter, pinning the thief against a tree. He died on the spot. His accomplice fled on foot.
El Bejjati had been convicted before of purse theft and was awaiting trial on armed robbery charges when he died. Well good riddance.
Sorry, foul mood plus I am all too familiar with this sort of worthless scum roaming the cities on their scooters. If I had a say in it I would make Fragony minister of their 'integration'.
Pannonian
02-22-2008, 12:58
Be a bit lighter on HoreTore, in his law system everything may count as murder but then murderers aren't thrown into a dark pit for the rest of their lives, they reside on a nice comfy island, get all sorts of free activities and are released after few years to become useful members of soviety
You mean they're subjected to political indoctrination as well? What if they wish to become free market capitalists?
You mean they're subjected to political indoctrination as well? What if they wish to become free market capitalists?
:laugh4:
A typo I overlooked but I think I'll keep it now. :2thumbsup:
Adrian II
02-22-2008, 14:54
Well good riddance.Agreed. But that is not the way justice should served.
The woman apparently committed manslaughter, although in her case there are many mitigating circumstances.
The real scandal is that part of the Moroccan community in Amsterdam is coming to the defense of this young man whose death was the crowning achievement of a career in crime. The lady has been the victim of a genuine man-hunt by Moroccan criminals and virtually no official spokesperson for the local Moroccan community has openly declared against it.
Fragony is right that Mayor Job Cohen should step down and be replaced by someone who no longer treats some of these so-called community leaders as respectable partners in any sort of dialogue. The irony is that there are national and local politicians of Moroccan origin who have far better ideas about how to deal with the relatively small, but very annoying group of Moroccan repeat offenders.
Marmouch is a good man, the maroccan community should be happy to have him.
KukriKhan
02-22-2008, 15:27
https://jimcee.homestead.com/hellFrover.jpghttps://jimcee.homestead.com/pigFly.jpg
and
Fragony is right...
Kukri needs a nap, before the end-times arrive.
:laugh4:
Rodion Romanovich
02-22-2008, 15:36
temporary insanity over a stolen purse??:dizzy2:
it´s not like she was in fear for her life or anything.
You never know, say if you lose some important keycards, credit cards, someone else's credit cards/keycards etc, it can make you really nervous. Plus, the very experience of being victim of a crime can give you a shock even if it's a small crime, making you fear you're completely unprotected against all crime, suddenly feeling like you're under death threat even though it was just a robbery etc. Especially when the crime is unprovoked, i.e. from a total stranger. It's a quite natural reaction to fear for your life after a robbery, and think a bit irrationally. It should certainly be a strong mitigating factor in this case, no matter the outcome of the discussion of intent etc.
Louis VI the Fat
02-22-2008, 15:41
The real scandal is that part of the Moroccan community in Amsterdam is coming to the defense of this young man whose death was the crowning achievement of a career in crime. The lady has been the victim of a genuine man-hunt by Moroccan criminals and virtually no official spokesperson for the local Moroccan community has openly declared against it. Maybe she can apply for French citizenship and protection? Like Hirsi Ali (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080210/wl_afp/francenetherlandsislamrights_080210221734)? :candle:
PARIS (AFP) - Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-born former Dutch deputy threatened with death for her outspoken criticism of Islam, sought European protection and possible French citizenship at the start of a visit to Paris on Sunday.
French star philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy has spearheaded a campaign for Hirsi Ali to receive honorary French citizenship -- and financial aid to cover her security costs -- and Sunday night saw several hundred sympathisers attend a support meeting in the French capital.
"I hope that the initiative of the French intellectuals will be honoured, and that my security problem will be resolved, and for that to happen I have to have the French nationality," 38-year-old Hirsi Ali told AFP in an interview.
Payback for Descartes. :wink3:
https://jimcee.homestead.com/hellFrover.jpghttps://jimcee.homestead.com/pigFly.jpg
and
Kukri needs a nap, before the end-times arrive.
:laugh4:
Hey AdrianII and I agree more then we disagree (well I think at least, being a dutch social-democrat doesn't necesarily mean you are pipesmoking pinko-intellectual, it are just a few million that ruin it for AdrianII)
Maybe she can apply for French citizenship and protection? Like Hirsi Ali?
She is protected here but not in the US (with which I disagree), France isn't going to do that either. But you can have her, looks like France is going to be the example to follow with Sarkozy on top, so she is more usefull over there then here. Heard she is quite the darling of the left, being progressive here means being without doubt about a ultra-conservative movement so kudo's there.
Innocentius
02-22-2008, 15:49
, it are just a few million that ruin it for AdrianII)
Wow, that's quite difficult to interpret...
And on the subject I think this whole thing is ridiculous. She should go free, end of story.
LittleGrizzly
02-22-2008, 16:37
There should be some small punishment, though by the sounds of it she has had enough of a punishment already, but the law is the law and there is a very good reason its illegal to take matters into your own hands, from the sounds of it there was an intention to hurt the robber rather than kill him so as an accidental death with plenty of mitigating circumstances i think the legal equivilent of a slap on the wrists will do.
CrossLOPER
02-22-2008, 16:46
According the the article that is in English, the charge is fully justifiable. She bulldozed a kid with her car.
Wow, that's quite difficult to interpret...
Not going to rub his balls without giving them a playfull squeeze.
Conradus
02-22-2008, 22:57
Wow, that's quite difficult to interpret...
And on the subject I think this whole thing is ridiculous. She should go free, end of story.
The death of a person should never be ridiculous. I believe that this woman should be punished, all be it lightly, because in a way she was obviously 'forced'. But that doesn't change the fact that she killed somebody (who might have been a bastard, but there are reasons for laws)
Innocentius
02-22-2008, 23:38
The death of a person should never be ridiculous
, but it always is.
Geoffrey S
02-22-2008, 23:46
Two sides to this in my opinion:
1. She consciously made the decision to reverse in an attempt to hit the guy on the scooter. Cries of 'murder' are clearly out of all proportion, but it was a conscious decision of dangerous driving with intent to harm, regardless of the consequences. Certainly the punishment should be light, since there are without doubt plenty of mitigating circumstances, but it should be made clear that her actions were illegal.
2. As far as I'm concerned the guy got what he deserved and I find it quite appalling that some have seen this case as an attack on their community. They're in complete denial that this idiot was an out of control thug, and cannot fathom why they want him as some kind of martyr. Can't see why their presence in court is tolerated either.
All this has just shown is the ineptness of the Dutch judicial system in such cases and the inability of politicians to separate the incident from mass hysteria and links to running political issues. Worthless performance all round.
Louis VI the Fat
02-22-2008, 23:53
That would sum it up I think, Geoffrey. :bow:
Seamus Fermanagh
02-23-2008, 06:26
I think she has a right to defend her property and to use violence to do so.
In her position, I would not have attacked at that juncture. Too much risk to self and others (perp's life not included) for too little property.
As a Christian, I should have more sympathy for the young thug who went squishy....but I'm not feeling it.
Rats.
Need to do some more rosaries.
Kralizec
02-24-2008, 15:27
Maybe she can apply for French citizenship and protection? Like Hirsi Ali (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080210/wl_afp/francenetherlandsislamrights_080210221734)? :candle:
AFAIK the French government has already made it clear that they wouldn't fund her security if she moved back to America again. Cheapskates :no:
Ja'chyra
02-25-2008, 08:36
Find her guilty of causing death by reckless driving, because she is surely guilty of it, and give her 2 years probation due to the stress she's already had to suffer.
The thief is no loss to society and, quite frankly, got what he deserved. It doesn't matter if the bag had £10 million or a lipstick in it, it was hers and she should be able to stop people taking it or even go get it back if she's brave enough.
As for the death threats and the harrassment, find out who done it and kick them out of the country and if any more of their community complain about that in an improper manner kick them out as well
Integration and tolerance should be for those who deserve it.
Ja'chyra - Future minister of immigration and common sense.
Just when I am growing softer you guys start radicalising, that's just great I just don't belong.
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