Hojo\'s Mojo

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Jimminy Crickets!

I read the posts- i KNEW Hojo was out there - - i knew he would be waiting as i slowly expanded towards the middle of Nihon (i am playing Green Shimazu Clan).

So... i took the .org's advice, built a few ports, got troop production up. Even went against the Moro Daimyo and Yellow Daimyo with the intent of turning them Ronin to create a buffer... (it worked - red and yellow are now ronin).

Also, kept a steady look at the map of all the provinces to see where Hojo was; and even helped the Blue clan stay strong by hitting three of Hojo's isolated Provinces. The first 2 of 3 went down without a fight...

BUT!! nothing could have prepared me for my first Real Hojo Experience (which i just had last night). Holy cow - it was the biggest battle i have ever been in. ELEVEN hundred (1,100) of my guys vs. like 900 Hojo Fanatics... i am not sure how many actually are allowed to fight in a battle - but that is how many guys i put in there.

The Hojo were socked into the trees on a hill - -i advanced in good order (taking mega-casualties at the cost of keeping my army in position). Needless to say, after throwing in ALL my reservers, i finally got his Hojo Daimyo to turn tail and flee.

Hurray for the Green Clan! Oh -- -whats that? I would have to make his Super Honor Daimyo rout three more times in order to actually win the battle? MAN, dont those guys ever just give up.

Casulties: 450 for me and about 660 for him.

Good thing i have a Ronin Buffer between us, and that Blue Clan is still alive. I have some serious rethinking to do.

That Hojo has some major bad Mojo.

P.S. An enemy ninja just killed my second best general. I need to buy my own Ninjas to catch him, right?

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// Black
// "Did we win?"

[This message has been edited by BlackWatch McKenna (edited 04-27-2001).]

[This message has been edited by BlackWatch McKenna (edited 04-27-2001).]

[Obake]

Heh heh heh!

Blackwatch you poor unwitting fool! You are only playing right into the hands of Hojo. You think that was Mojo you saw...? You ain't seen nuttin' yet!

Wait till you are comfortably ensconced in what you consider a defensible position and then watch as Hojo attacks you MONTH after MONTH after MONTH with in excess of 4-5000 troops against your paltry band of 1000. You may win EVERY battle, but in the end you will lose, because for every battle you win, your army will decrease in size until there is nothing you can do except retreat!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Your only hope is to kill the Daimyo and ALL of his heirs before he kills you! And from the sounds of it, that is already on the way.

Good luck.........you'll need it!

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Obake

I warned you, but did you listen? Ohh, no...it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it?

[ShaiHulud]

Time for the BAD news, now... it gets worse! hehe

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[candidgamera]

Try having about 2000 to defend with and getting attacked every season with attacks that grow from 2-3000 in increments of about 2K to just shy of 20K (think there is an upper limit) over 6 years, and then they stopped! Made a rank 2 general into a rank 5 (shortly went on to 6 in another series of similar attacks).

Yamashiro province as Imagawa verses Hojo, Hard setting.

BWM:
Your Shimazu strategy is what's worked for me too - think Imagawa is better positioned to take Kyshu first though - has the good provinces.

(Must admit didn't play iron man here, but still think I'd have prevailed).

[Laertes]

ISTR that Erado San once posted a screenshot of a *REALLY* *REALLY* big Horde that practically filled a decent-sized province with not-exactly-empty pawns...

*shudder*

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He is justly served; It is a poison temper'd by himself.

[Minagawa Daimon]

speaking of mojo's....look at mini-me right now, living the life of a pimp http://www.ballericons.com/icon/4796.gif




[This message has been edited by Minagawa Daimon (edited 04-27-2001).]

[candidgamera]

Neighbor Laertes:
Think I saw the same one: its probably 20-30K
Have run into this in most of my completed campaigns to date - as Shimazu, now Imagawa as above. Seems like they always end up in middle there in one of several provinces:
Omi, Harima, or thereabouts.

[Alastair]

That's nothing. I once had one that was 33,000.

[henryh]

Trick is not to keep moving when you can of course, don't waste time building perfect dojos make sure that you build as many troops as possible and wipe out every body in Japan. The games I've lost or given up on are the ones where I wait around improving my provinces or waiting for gunpowder and not being devoted to the attack.

[solypsist]

we really should think about opening up a new Forum for exclusive discussion of the Hojo Horde phenom, since this seems to pop up every week..

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Blue Horde Alert:

Remember that my plan was to hop from Noto to Sado then into Dewa? Well - i got into Dewa and met the Hojo Horde again. Every Hojo unit on the field shot arrows (all SA and CA). I waited till it was raining hard...

I finally pushed them out of Dewa plains and into their castle (very very costly battle for me). Then i promptly left the province when my supposed Blue Ally jumped me there.

I think i have crippled Hojo at the expense of creating the Blue Horde ...

Reporting Live, from somewhere in Fuedal Nihon, I remain, BWM.



[This message has been edited by BlackWatch McKenna (edited 04-28-2001).]

[InterestingTimes]

What I find most annoying about hordes is when you can win every battle that you fight but if your troop production is just slightly under you losses and you are waiting for that extra dojo. You have to wait for the dojo and worry that your losses would be to great. ARGH!

[Devil's Advocate]

The trick is to wait for the patch.

[Tenchimuyo]

Or simply use koku cheats or geishas. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

[Steeleye]

Dunno about you boyz too, but once I get a onehundredthousandman horde in some central province, I tend to loose interest - sure, someone will come on saying the great satisfaction they get from surrounding the horde and taking down their production centres before routing the main muchos, but quite frankly, why bother? After repeating the same battle 15 times defending the same province I'm usually getting v.bored.

And that's not what I want - I want the variety and excitement of the knive-edge during the beginning and mid-game, when you have different battles each season and its make-or-break on the strategy front. One easy way around the whole end-game inevitability thing would be to allow you to change the victory conditions, so that once you have the emperor and say three fifths of Japan, you win.

What d'yer reckon?

Kyodaispan

[BlackWatch McKenna]

On the board game, you win if you get 40 of 60 provinces.

As for me, i have re-re-restarted the Green Clan again. This time, i have plenty of Shinobi guys to keep those enemy ninjas away from my oh-so-powerful Taishos.

Sure, he is only a level 3 Ashigaru Spearman taisho, but he is still my 2nd best general...

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// Black
// "Did we win?"

[borisus]

If you want to avoid the horde,just play fast,attack from turn 1 and never stop.
it works for me,and i never have to fight the stupid GH.
but if you do this you don't get much fun,if you like to see a unit with LA LW LM forget about it.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif oh i miss my super nagi so much http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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"A WISE MAN ONCE SAID,LETS KICK THAIR ASS!"

[Bodhiharma]

Interesting,

I'm quite the newbie to the game....but umm, I'm playing as the blue clan (sorry I forgot the name, I haven't played in a week or two! LOL!) and I immediately crushed him. He's already gone...though I did have a TERRIBLE time attacking the one province with the stupid bridge attack...me sucks at the bridge attack.

Anyway, as you can tell I'm a newbie, because I don't even know the damn lingo and proper terms...needless to say I whooped him quite easily! WOOHOO! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif hehe

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Honour And Pride
--Bodhiharma Daidoji

[CaPeFeAr]

i have seen the hojo horde many times along with hords from most all of the clans. the one that is truly frightning is the usuagi horde. 16 units of sa attacking season after season is quite fustrating. i find it easy to rout odas and hojos million spearmen but the darn sa always shoot my guys up good. while renforcing your fighting army faster than the horde kills them is the key it is very hard to do against a giant horde of archers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

[candidgamera]

Cape:

That's where YC or HC are great - even just 2-3 units do wonders. Get on the flank of that big line of archers - oh yeah. Like to put YC almost online 2-3 ranks deep once pursuit starts too, more engaged cav, and more kills.

[Devil's Advocate]

Cape that's exactly the point. It's not a Hojo hoarde, its a design cheat that allows any AI clan to form a hoarde, the one you face usually depends on where you start on the board.

Playing as Shimazu - green for you newbies, I came across an Oda hoarde many, many times.

Steeleye - "why bother?" Exactly. I'm not playing until its patched. Having bought the game a year ago I can't believe it's still not fixed.

As I've always said though, when its fixed STW will be a great game.

I don't believe its fixable though. Hence we keep waiting without official word.

[CaPeFeAr]

yes yc is great but i seem to lose almost all of them each battle http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif and the horde slowly dwendles me down......the only solution i know of is to keep attacking and never defend. no wonder i dont play caimpain any more....

[edRonin]

Quote Originally posted by Devil's Advocate:
I don't believe its fixable though. Hence we keep waiting without official word.[/QUOTE]

Devil, the horde is very fixable. The main reason that the horde exists is the cheating that the AI is allowed to do at the higher difficulty levels. The ability to produce troops while the AI Daimyo has negative koku directly leads to the horde. You and I need to have a budget and produce troops only when we can afford them. The AI can blindly pump out troops every season and in every province that has troops producing dojos. Thats how the horde is created. Plus the AI does not have to pay for unit maintanence which can be quite expensive in the middle and late game.

The reason the AI is allowed to cheat is to provide a challenge in the late game. I personally don't mind the Horde because I like the challenge and enjoy defeating it. Hopefully they can improve the strategic AI so that they can remove these advantages and have a challenging late game without resorting to the horde.


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All your base are belong to us

[Devil's Advocate]

That's my point ed. We know why the horde exists, those of us who bought the game on release came across this after a few day's playing and we said "what the hell?" That and "where's the full rulebook?"

With respect though you've contradicted yourself. You say its easy to fix and then state that hopefully they can come up with an enhanced strategic AI.

So where's the easy fix? Its the lack of solid AI that resulted in this simplisitc cheat.

I'm playing Europa Universalis right now and it cheats but not in such a blatant manner. It's AI routine tweaks are very subtle.

Facing an unlimited AI in a build and conquer game such as STW is not a battle of strategic wits. Its counter Sun Tzu.

Do I want STW fixed yes. Do I want to play STW yes. I want official confirmation that STW is fixed 12 months after buying the game. Hence my scepticism.

PS: Sorry to belabour the point but one other thing you've stated isn't correct. The AI horde isn't meant to be a "late game" equaliser nor a "higher difficulty level" occurence.

It effects the "normal" difficulty level and if one is playing Shimazu for example, will be there before the Christians start door knocking in the form of Mori, Oda, or Hojo depending on your path of advance.

[This message has been edited by Devil's Advocate (edited 05-01-2001).]

[InterestingTimes]

I donno, I have a feeling that most of you think this is wussified. But anyways on expert, I always try to find out who is the horde pretty early in the game. Usually there's some other clan inbetween. I ally with the bugger then GEISHA!!!! him to death. Usually about 4 geisha's about 10 seasons. Poof! His horde becomes my horde. Well some of it anyways, depends on luck, I think.

Another good way to avoid the horde is to hide from it. On normal I don't think the AI learns. In Shinano there are loads of trees,
I pop 2 units into the trees and hide there for the whole day. Most of my army is safe a province away. However on expert the AI will ALWAYS find me unless there is very very very heavy fog .

[henryh]

Do you know what always bothers me about the HOJO hoard? It is always HOJO in all the games I've played It is only HOJO who creates that horde I'd like to see ODA hordes and TAKEDA hordes. But it never happens. I wish their was some kind of arbitrary skill differences and personality differences between the clans. I would simply love the game more if the AI daimyo went for more crazy risky attacks on occasion against other AIs. Especially Takeda who could theoretically stich HOJO up at Mushashi in the first turn But Takeda doesn't because AIs don't like leaving territories open. But I always see the same pattern emerging IE there is always lots of contention over Shinano which weakens the other 3 eastern clans. At the expense of HOJOs relative growth. Whenever I play any of the eastern clans its always the far east real estate which interests me most. Not Shinano !!

[solypsist]

actually it's only really a Hojo horde if you play one of the clan further to the west (Shimazu the green or Mori the red).
trya game as the Hojo, and you'll soon see that a "horde" appears somehwere every time. It's a matter of the AI keeping up with the human player; it would be less of a challenge to become powerful but still fight against small clans at your leisure. So the computer picks a clan and makes them your equal. The only thing is, the Hojo seems to be the only one who gets the "deficit spending" thing.

[Devil's Advocate]

The day I saw Oda in horde status I gave up.
All that effort that's gone into STW making it unique is still spolied for me by this nagging design decision.

Let EA/DT say now if its been fixed or explain why gamers should accept it as part of the game engine. If the explanation is sound, I'll accept it. Let's just get an announcement though.

Those who've bought the game only in the last 6 months or so, don't know the in-joke of "3 more weeks". 3 more weeks for patch 1, 3 more weeks for patch 2. This latest "3 weeks" has now lasted 5 months.

Original purchasers of this game have waited very loyally and patiently. Regulars here know that they can add 120+ (170?) posts to my name from the old forum. We deserve better.

[edRonin]

Devil, I think you misunderstood a couple of the points I was making. You are correct that the Horde can happen at easy and normal difficulties. If you are getting the horde at those level you are either getting unlucky and enemy Daimyos are dying off too quickly and leaving their lands to other Daimyos (which is what I imagine happened to you in that Shimazu campaign). Or you are not being aggressive enough and conquering as quickly as you need to in order to avoid the horde. If you are a newbie it is also possible that you are still learning how to fight the tactical battle and therefore aren't conquering fast enough.

The cheats I referred that guarentee a horde at the hard an expert level are the negative koku spending and no unit maintenance cheats. I have never played a game at expert without facing some sort of horde. Where after a few campaigns on normal I could generally avoid a horde. Thats because I got alot better at the tactical battles and got more aggressive strategically.

My point on their being an easy fix is that if they removed these cheats on the hard and expert levels the chances of a horde a greatly reduced. Hojo horde essentially gone problem fixed right? But the late game would be no challenge at all. My point about an improved strategic AI is that if they remove the horde they would need something else to provide a challenge in the late game. They can essentially get rid of the horde pretty easily but providing another late game challenge is a little tougher.

The Hojo horde is difficult for the newbie to handle. Hopefully that is not discouraging new players. The horde is beatable. Look at some the strategies to beating it in these forums. Practice them and in time you will not be fazed by it.

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All your base are belong to us

[Steeleye]

Your point that the end game wouldn't be a challenge without hordes falls nicely into my original one - that if they changed the victory conditions, then you wouldn't have the whole 'end-game' thing anyway. Once you've conquered a sizable majority of Japan, its daft that you should have to slog it out for decades with a ridiculous size army.

Once you have got into the position of conquering most of the provinces, then you have already won the strategic game in my thinking, as you have outclassed the other clans. Kicking the horde hasn't got very much to do with the strategic side of the game in my opinion.

On an aside, if a clan(s) were faced with a hugely dominant enemy (eg:- you), would they really carry on vying for the shogunate until they were utterly destroyed? I doubt even Bushido would neccesitate that they fight to the last man, especially once there was an obvious winner.

kyodaispan

[Devil's Advocate]

Steeleye you're spot on. Total conquest is a poor design decision, most gamers give up once they've conquered 4/5 of lands and rarely conquer all Ronin provinces.

Ed, I'm sorry but you're incorrect again. To quote you:

"The cheats I referred that guarentee a horde at the hard an expert level are the negative koku spending and no unit maintenance cheats."

Let me repeat again: This is ***not*** a higher difficulty level cheat. This is the ***same*** cheat that effects the AI from Easy to Expert difficulty levels. It is a game design mechanic ingrained into the game's code. Can I be clearer?

This was officially confirmed in July 2000 by Dreamtime. Hence the officially promised effort to try to rid it from the Mongol Expansion Pack.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

The "horde fix" promised for version 1.13 presumably involves balancing out the negative spending / maintenance cheat, and possibly improving the strategic AI to compensate.

In any case, it has been confirmed (see the expansion forum (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Mongol+Invasion+-+Expansion+Pack&number=7)) that the Warlord Edition makes it possible to set the game to end once you've conquered 40 of the 60 provinces (or, alternatively, eliminated all the enemy daimyô).

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"The unhappiest of all unhappy states is the republic or principality which cannot accept peace and cannot tolerate war."
- Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli

[Steeleye]

Cool! A reason for buying the expansion in itself....

Kyodaispan

[Dunhill]

I think more work will have to be done on the AI to help relax the need for hordes to make play more challenging.