Missile Units & Scutarii

[Spartan198]

Can you give a specific unit missile capability? I only ask because I'm thinking of altering Poeni Infantry to fight like legionaries instead of hoplites,i.e. making them into swordsmen who throw spears then charge in.

Seems a logical concept,considering Carthage's history with Rome,that they'd copy the Legionary fighting style and use it against their enemy.

If not,then is it possible to make "Legionary-style" scutarii a recruitable unit? I tried to give archers to Carthage,but they only appeared as dark peasants (which seems ironic as Numidian archers are described in the files as "carthaginian archers" :inquisitive: )

[Horseman]

Yes all that is possible.

To make Poeni into legion style troops you will need to edit export_descr_unit (edu) and descr_model_battle (dmb)

In edu - you need to remove the phalanx ability and change the stat primary line. Use a Roman Legion unit as a guide. You may also want to beef up their secondary attack a little as this is now what they will always use in close combat. Bits in red are where to make changes.

type carthaginian heavy infantry
dictionary carthaginian_heavy_infantry ; Poeni Infantry
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier carthaginian_heavy_infantry, 40, 0, 1.3
officer carthaginian_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx (delete and dont miss the coma!)
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11, 2, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,1 (the pilum could equally be javelin - check the top of edu to see what the numbers correspond to)
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown ap (prec=use missile weapon before a charge, you dont have to have it ap if you think the carthiginans would use ligher throwing weapons)
stat_sec 5, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1 (Thats base attack and charge bonus (same as stat_pri) charge bonus has to bethe same as in stat_pri)
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 6, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 2, 1, 0, -1
stat_mental 8, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 540, 210, 60, 90, 540
ownership carthage

Now in dmb find the Poeni infantry entry and alter the 1st skeleton from fs_slow_spearman to fs_javelinman. If you look at the Poeni infanty entry in EDU you can see the model you're loking for is the carthaginian_heavy_infantry


When you say that adding the numidian archers you ended up with dark peasants, I assume you meant the unit card?

The dark peasant is the default unit card if there is not one in place.

If you look through the Sciptorium you'll find a tutorial on how to use the x-pac extracter and on how to "make" a unit card. In this case it would be a simple matter to copy the numidian archer unit card and add it to the Carthaginian faction

[Spartan198]

Thanks.
Side question: Could this method theoretically give hoplites the ability to throw "spears" in addition to phalanx?

[Horseman]

I dont think so as you'd need a 3rd weapon, give it a go and see what happens!

It wold be historically correct as many early hoplites also carried light spears for throwing

[Spartan198]

I know hoplites work with the fs_javelin animation,because I have my phalanxes modified for overhand use as opposed to underarm (the thread in the Scriptorium said I had to download new animations for them to thrust their spears,but mine do so without it).

Not that that's necessarily relevant,I just felt like mentioning it...

[Charge]

It should work as spear-throwing non-phalanx spear-infantry..

[Spartan198]

I'll try it out and let you know if it works or not.

[Spartan198]

I tried the legionary changes with "phalanx" intact,with surprising results: Clicking the button to turn it on and off didn't make a phalanx (though the spears were visible in their hands in the start battle screen and while throwing their "pila"),but instead made a virtually impenetrable shield wall that held even Berserker charges back (and I'm not talking about BI's shield wall)!

But on the downside,though,it is a bit clunky because when the formation is active,the unit can't move,hence I needed to turn it off before the unit could move.

Maybe I'll try setting infantry to wedge formation and see if I can make that "300" wedge-phalanx...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Maybe I'll try setting infantry to wedge formation and see if I can make that "300" wedge-phalanx...

I tried that ..
The only thing I got was CTD's .. :furious3:
I think that infantry can not have the wedge formation :no:

[Spartan198]

I tried that ..
The only thing I got was CTD's .. :furious3:
I think that infantry can not have the wedge formation :no:

Yeah,I did too. But it's okay,because I back up every file I alter in both Modded and Original forms. :2thumbsup:

[Horseman]

You can not have both wedge and Phalanx.....you can only have 1 "special ability"

[Spartan198]

You can not have both wedge and Phalanx.....you can only have 1 "special ability"

I hadn't tried to put wedge as a special ability,I tried replacing the square formation with triangle,but it didn't work.

What can I do but try,right?

[Horseman]

Sorry I wan't too clear on that answer.

Specila abillities are things that you activate with a button in the battle such as....

Phalanx
Wedge
Flaming arrows
War Cry
Generals Rally
Teustedo

And afaik you can't have more than 1 of these abilities on a unit

[Quirinus]

I dont think so as you'd need a 3rd weapon, give it a go and see what happens!

It wold be historically correct as many early hoplites also carried light spears for throwing
What about units like the German spear phalanx then, which does not have a short sword as a secondary weapon? Would it be possible to give them the javelin, for instance?

[Spartan198]

What about units like the German spear phalanx then, which does not have a short sword as a secondary weapon? Would it be possible to give them the javelin, for instance?

Do you mean make them fight as legionaries,then?
If so,since I did it with Poeni Infantry,I'm sure it's possible with the German warband. I would assume that you'd make the same changes to them as I did to Poeni,which are outlined in previous posts.

When I want to make changes,I come here to the .Org to find out what exactly to do.

[Spartan198]

Sorry I wan't too clear on that answer.

Specila abillities are things that you activate with a button in the battle such as....

Phalanx
Wedge
Flaming arrows
War Cry
Generals Rally
Teustedo

And afaik you can't have more than 1 of these abilities on a unit

I hadn't tried to put it as a special ability,I changed the unit's square formation to triangle,so as to attempt to make them stand in a triangle formation on the battlefield. Phalanx remained the special ability for the unit chosen to test.

[Squid]

The abilities are hardcoded, there is no "Triangle" formation, you have to use the ones defined by the game (see the top of EDU). In addition one of the formations must allways be either Square or Horde, and you can have at most two formations.

[Spartan198]

It didn't hurt to try.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Can a unit that has "horde" formation also have "phalanx" formation?? :beam:

Like "Macedonian Horde Phalanx Pikemen"??:laugh4:

[Squid]

Yes, a unit can have either one or two formations, and one of the formations a unit has must be Horde or Square, the other (if present) can be whatever you want it to be from the list of formations. Keep in mind if you're doing an rtw mod that bi specific formations won't work.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Now .. I tried to use horde and phalanx formations together ..

What happened is that unit couldn't get out of the phalanx formation :laugh4:

I think the same thing happens if you try to use horde with shield wall or schiltrom formations .. must use them only with square

Me agreers with Squid ... Hard coded it is :inquisitive:

[Quirinus]

Do you mean make them fight as legionaries,then?
If so,since I did it with Poeni Infantry,I'm sure it's possible with the German warband. I would assume that you'd make the same changes to them as I did to Poeni,which are outlined in previous posts.

When I want to make changes,I come here to the .Org to find out what exactly to do.
No, I meant, IIRC, the German spear phalanx doesn't have it as a special ability-- it's just a default ability, ergo there would be one space for a special ability, correct? So if I'm right then it might be able to have phalanx units who throw javelins and then switch back to phalanx formation.

Not a mod person, though, so forgive me if it sounds stupid.

[Spartan198]

No, I meant, IIRC, the German spear phalanx doesn't have it as a special ability-- it's just a default ability, ergo there would be one space for a special ability, correct? So if I'm right then it might be able to have phalanx units who throw javelins and then switch back to phalanx formation.

Oh,I see. You know,I'm not sure. You might ask around here in the Modding forums. If all else fails,start a seperate thread about it. That's what I do.

I'm currently engrossed in Extended Greek Mod and just downloaded Rise of Macedon,so I'm not really spending any time in my vanilla files


Not a mod person, though, so forgive me if it sounds stupid.

I don't see anything stupid about it. I just started becoming a serious modder about two weeks ago,so I'm still a novice myself. Just give yourself a little time to figure your way through the game files and it'll start to become second nature.

Besides,look at all the heat I seem to be getting over my unsuccessful "wedge phalanx" attempt.

"The only stupid questions are the ones that never get asked",is what I always say

[Squid]

No, I meant, IIRC, the German spear phalanx doesn't have it as a special ability-- it's just a default ability, ergo there would be one space for a special ability, correct? So if I'm right then it might be able to have phalanx units who throw javelins and then switch back to phalanx formation.

Not a mod person, though, so forgive me if it sounds stupid.

If you look in EDU, the warband spear german unit has two formations, square and phalanx. As I mentioned earlier every unit must have either square or horde as one of its formations, they may have another, but must have one of those two.

As for a phalanx unit that throws javelins, I don't see why you couldn't have both, they are unrelated in EDU. It mostly depends on the model, does it have a javelin as the primary weapon, if so you should be able to do it.

[Quirinus]

I see! So instead of trying to give phalanx-capable units the javelin, are you saying to give a javelin missile unit the phalanx ability instead? I haven't thought of it this way... :yes:

@SpartanGlory198: Thanks. I might pick up intensive RTW modding myself, when I have lots of free time, seeing as there seems to be a pretty active modding community here.

[Spartan198]

@SpartanGlory198: Thanks. I might pick up intensive RTW modding myself, when I have lots of free time, seeing as there seems to be a pretty active modding community here.

I'll be rooting for you. And if you ever lose your way in the game files,there'll always be someone here on the .Org to bail you out. Everyone's been more than willing to throw me a rope every time I'd think up something to change.