Iraq: Round Two

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I don't think I could've picked much more of a misleading title, but the news is:

Turkey Attacks Iraq (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7260119.stm)


'Dozens dead' in Turkish assault

The ground assault followed an air bombardment

Turkey's army says its ground offensive in northern Iraq has left five soldiers and dozens of Kurdish rebels dead.

Turkey said its ground forces had crossed the border to tackle rebels late on Thursday after an air and artillery bombardment.

PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said the offensive is limited in scale and troops will return as soon as possible.

The UN secretary general and the US have urged Turkey to show restraint in the offensive.

A Turkish army statement said: "It has been understood from preliminary information that the terrorists have suffered heavy losses under long-range weapons fire and air strikes."

A Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) spokesman, Ahmad Danas, earlier said two Turkish troops were killed and eight wounded in fighting.

Neither report can be independently confirmed.

PKK fighters are known to use northern Iraq as a base


Mr Erdogan had told Turks on television: "The target, purpose, size and parameters of this operation are limited.

"Our armed forces will come back in the shortest time possible as soon as they achieve their objectives," he said, insisting that members of the PKK were the sole targets.

Correspondents say the aim is to isolate the organisation and prevent it using northern Iraq as a launch pad for attacks on Turkish soil.

Washington said it had been informed of the incursion in advance and that it had urged the Turks to limit their action to precise targeting of rebel Kurdish targets.

Reports from Turkey on the size of the assault force have varied from 3,000 to 10,000 soldiers.

But senior Iraqi Kurdish sources told the BBC the Turkish side had exaggerated the operation, which they believe to be "very, very limited", and in a remote border area.

'Unusual timing'

Turkey's military said the cross-border ground operation backed by the Air Force was launched at 1900 [1700 GMT on Thursday].
The protection of civilian life on both sides of the border remains the paramount concern
Ban Ki-moon
UN secretary general

Ground attack confusion


Turkey has carried out at least one ground incursion, as well as frequent air and artillery strikes, against suspected PKK targets in Iraq since parliament authorised the army to act in October 2007.

But this operation's timing is unusual as the mountainous border area is still covered with heavy snow, the BBC's Sarah Rainsford reports from Istanbul.

Nor have there been any major PKK attacks inside Turkey for some time, she adds.

More than 30,000 people have been killed since the PKK began fighting for a Kurdish homeland in south-eastern Turkey in 1984.

The US, the EU and Turkey consider the PKK to be a "terrorist" organisation.

President's call

Top Iraqi Kurdish and government officials are saying there has been no crossing at the Habur bridge, the only major land route into Iraq, the BBC's Jim Muir reports from Baghdad.


Kurdistan Democratic Party militants who control the area in question inside northern Iraq say they have not detected any Turkish forces near any of their own lines.

The office of Turkish President Abdullah Gul says the leader phoned his Iraqi counterpart, Jalal Talabani, about the operation on Thursday evening.

Mr Talabani's office confirmed a conversation had taken place during which Mr Gul invited him to visit Ankara officially, and also assured him that any Turkish operations were against the PKK, not against the Iraqi Kurds.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon expressed concern about the situation.

"The protection of civilian life on both sides of the border remains the paramount concern," he said.

[Boyar Son]

They're there just for the Kurd rebels. If the US just manages to keep the Turks to the most minimal cross border attacks would help. But It is up to Iraq to deal with this as US should take no sides and make sure to keep everyone happy without alienating the other (even tho is is difficult).

The US should ask the PKK (assuming they have ties IMO) to get the rebels to stop. And show the situation is being handled with the support of Iraq's gov't (its 1st true test as a nation).

[Tribesman]

But It is up to Iraq to deal with this as US should take no sides and make sure to keep everyone happy without alienating the other (even tho is is difficult).

But surely the US should take sides , after all Turkey is its ally and Turkey is fighting terrorists in the War on Terror .:eyebrows:
Perhaps America should join Turkey in invading Iraq to get rid of them terrorists .

[Boyar Son]

But surely the US should take sides , after all Turkey is its ally and Turkey is fighting terrorists in the War on Terror .:eyebrows:
Perhaps America should join Turkey in invading Iraq to get rid of them terrorists .

Not unless the rebels attacked US or allied soldiers.

[spmetla]

The official Kurdish authority has avoided actual combat with the Turks shown in this incident on Thursday: http://www.kansascity.com/news/world/story/499817.html


Kurdish troops surround Turks in worst confrontation yet in Iraq
By LEILA FADEL and YASSEEN TAHA
McClatchy Newspapers
BAGHDAD | Iraqi Kurdish troops on Thursday encircled Turkish soldiers in northern Iraq and threatened to open fire in the most serious standoff between the two nation’s forces since Turkey threatened late last year to go after guerrillas from the Kurdistan Workers Party sheltering in Iraq.

The standoff began when Turkish troops in tanks and armored vehicles left one of five bases they’ve had in Iraq since 1997 and moved to control two main roads in Dahuk province, Iraqi officials said.

Kurdish soldiers from the peshmerga militia, which is loyal to the Kurdish Regional Government, moved to stop them. For an hour and a half, the two sides faced off before the Turkish soldiers retreated to their base, which is about 27 miles northeast of the city of Dahuk. The peshmerga surrounded the base and remained there late Thursday.

The Turkish troop movement was accompanied by artillery and airstrikes that targeted mountain areas held by rebels from the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, which is known by its initials as the PKK. A spokesman for the peshmerga, Jabar Yawar, said the shelling began at about 11 a.m. and continued past midnight. Two bridges were knocked out over the Great Zab River, he said.

“This is a matter of the sovereignty of Iraq and the unity of Iraq,” said Falah Bakir, the head of the foreign relations department of the regional government. “We hope that there will be no clashes — the Kurdistan Regional Government has done enough to show our goodwill to Turkey.”

Bakir said the regional government has tightened security at checkpoints, airports and hospitals to stop PKK movements, but that the Turkish military has continued its buildup. He called for the Iraqi central government and U.S. military to step in to stop what he called Turkey’s “abnormal movements.”

In Baghdad, Iraqi government officials held tense meetings with American civilian and military officials to stem the crisis in one of the only peaceful areas of Iraq.

“We have to do something,” said a senior Iraqi official, who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue. “We cannot keep quiet and keep digging our heads in the sand.”

The growing tension between Turkey and Iraqi Kurdistan has wedged the United States between two allies. Turkey is a NATO member, and the Iraqi Kurds have been among the biggest supporters of the American presence in Iraq.

But the PKK, which has battled Turkey for decades for an autonomous Kurdish region in southern Turkey, also has broad support in northern Iraq, despite being labeled a terrorist organization by the United States.

There were no PKK casualties from Thursday’s Turkish shelling, said Ahmed Dennis, a spokesman for the group.

Meanwhile, violence hit elsewhere in Iraq. In Diyala province, 24 bodies were found in two graves.

The Iraqi army discovered 15 men buried under a thin layer of dirt about 10 miles north of Baqouba, the province’s capital, U.S. and Iraqi officials said. The corpses appeared to be about 10 days old. Each had been blindfolded, handcuffed and shot, Iraqi police said. Ten of the bodies were Iraqi soldiers.

The second grave also was near Baqouba; a police patrol uncovered the bodies of six men and three women.

Fighting between Shiite Muslim militias and the Iraqi army also broke out in Baqouba. An Iraqi army spokesman said the militias were affiliated with both Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, the country’s most influential political party. It was unclear how many people had been killed in the fighting.





Damnable PKK will likely force the Turks against the Peshmerga and Iraqi Kurdistan. The US and Iraq are undoubtedly treading a thin line between the Kurds and Turkey, one is the 'success story' of the 2003 invasion and the other a long partner and ally that understandably needs to act against the PKK.

[Tribesman]

Not unless the rebels attacked US or allied soldiers.

they have attacked Turkish soldiers , Turkish soldiers are your allies .~:doh:

[Boyar Son]

they have attacked Turkish soldiers , Turkish soldiers are your allies .~:doh:

ooh didnt see that one comin'.

Tukey isnt part of op: iraqi freedom. So its best not to help them fight.

[Tribesman]

Tukey isnt part of op: iraqi freedom. So its best not to help them fight.

But they are Boyar , they honoured the alliance , they are in Baghdad .

So is the US going to honour its alliance and join Turkey in stopping Iraq being a haven for terrorists and a threat to its neighbours by invading Iraq ?

[Brenus]

Recognise Kurdistan Independance, carve a part of Tukish territoritory to give to te new state.
Turkey recognised Kosovo so should accept gracefully the consequence of this for itself.:beam:

[Oleander Ardens]

War usually begins with great promises and happiness - and ends with sorrow. In this moment the turkish goverment has done what the people and the PKK wanted. I just hope that it doesn't end in tragedy...

BTW a united Kurdistan would indeed be best longterm solution. But giving the kurdish regions far more autonomy would be the easiest way to solve this mess.

[Innocentius]

But they are Boyar , they honoured the alliance , they are in Baghdad .

So is the US going to honour its alliance and join Turkey in stopping Iraq being a haven for terrorists and a threat to its neighbours by invading Iraq ?

You don't think there's a slight difference between organizations such as PKK and al-Qaeda? The PKK fights for independence (just like the Americans did back in the 18th century, but we would never call Americans terrorists, right? No, if we're talking about Americans they're freedom fighters) while al-Qaeda fights for... well, none knows exactly, but it involves USA and the degenerated Westworld.

[Fragony]

Turkey has the right to defend itselve, good hunting. The otherwise so vocal peace-movement seems to agree, oh the silence...... I guess only western agression is bad.

[Pannonian]

Turkey has the right to defend itselve, good hunting. The otherwise so vocal peace-movement seems to agree, oh the silence...... I guess only western agression is bad.
You've missed out one aspect of western aggression which makes it bad for us in particular. It costs our taxmoney. If we can go barging around and impose our costs on those we go barging into, it wouldn't be as bad. Although destablisation in that area of the world isn't going to be good, whoever pays for it, since we all pay in the end in the form of higher fuel costs.

Future presidents and prime ministers should get their kicks in strategic backwaters, instead of these important places where only grown ups ought to play. I hear there are terrorists in Tahiti that deserve our undivided attention.

[LeftEyeNine]

Kurdistan gets no ****** territory from Turkey. Full stop. There are 13 millions of them living in Turkey, most of them living in the western part rather than where people claim the Kurds' homeland is.

I don't like them at all. They need to change their feudalist mindsets before asking for something. Even in their so-called independence struggle, PKK is coping with leadership problems. It's not been more than a week since one of the two leadership contenders' -Murat Karayılan- 5 men were poisoned to death by his rival. The event ended up with the killing of 4 men loyal to his rival who were working in the kitchen. When you have a "cause", you need to unite, not fight over who the leader is.

I never and ever believe Kurds deserve independence. There are always landlords among them, who only think about their very selfish benefits who seem to be serving Kurds' political causes. Even in a more liberal environment such as N. Iraq, they have two parties which still fail at agreeing at some terms. They are not united at all.

What's more, if you want freedom, you go for it. No one gives another freedom. We didn't get it that way and we'll not give it that way either. If you're up for a demand of something which belongs to another for the time being, you're up for a fight. And considering the 30.000 people including women and babies murdered by PKK (I can provide photos but they are graphic), it's more of a terrorist organization rather than people fighting for independence. And regarding the condition they are in, they have failed.

However, no one will forget those "lost American weapons" in N. Iraq. US will always be contacting PKK in some way, supporting or helping against them from time to time, always seeming to be "against terrorism". If PKK ends, XYZP will come out, just as PKK did when ASALA had died off (1983-1984). Territorial seperatist plots are being played in this area for nearly a century. Nothing new will happen as long as Turkey can be economically independent someday.

They have a political party in the Turkish parliament (DTP). But it seems this is their "fun". They can't stop acting like terrorists. Things didn't get better since they are in that parliament.

[Tribesman]

You don't think there's a slight difference between organizations such as PKK and al-Qaeda? The PKK fights for independence (just like the Americans did back in the 18th century, but we would never call Americans terrorists, right?
So you can take the vast majority of terrorist groups in the world and declare that they are not terrorists then Innocentius .
BTW since Al-qaida wasn't in Iraq (apart from the American protected Kurdish areas) when Iraq was invaded what has Al-qaida got to do with it ?

[Vladimir]

Nevermind. No poke the badger today.

[Geoffrey S]

Uh-huh. And it's coincidental that this happens just after that whole Kosovo business?

[Ice]

Uh-huh. And it's coincidental that this happens just after that whole Kosovo business?

For the win

[LeftEyeNine]

Uh-huh. And it's coincidental that this happens just after that whole Kosovo business?

The Turkish army had an ongoing aerial campaign for the last 1-2 months.

[Geoffrey S]

The Turkish army had an ongoing aerial campaign for the last 1-2 months.
Somewhat different from sending in the ground troops, much as there'd be quite a bit more upheaval if US troops entered Pakistan rather than the occasional bombing foray currently used. Turkish troops have been massing along the borders for some time now, certainly, but I think the declaration of independence in Kosovo and the US's cautious approval pushed the Turkish government into action.

For what it's worth, I can certainly understand the worries such a precedent sets - but I'm also worried what precedent a US allowance for Turkish troops to stage ground assaults in Iraqi territory will set for people elsewhere. Can't have it both ways forever. It just goes to show how contradictory policies can get even the mightiest of nations into something of a pickle.

[spmetla]

From what I understand they've also been firing artillery over the border for the past few months. Also bear in mind that artillery and air attacks usually require a spotter which would most likely be the various Turkish commando units that have probably been in the region for a really long time.

[Fragony]

Somewhat different from sending in the ground troops,

Turkish ground-troops got ambushed in iraq by kurds two months ago, Turkey doesn't exactly make a secret out of it.

[Komutan]

Turkish ground-troops got ambushed in iraq by kurds two months ago, Turkey doesn't exactly make a secret out of it.

No. That ambush happened inside the borders of Turkey. This incident was what caused Turkey to start attacking PKK bases in Northern Iraq.

[Fragony]

No. That ambush happened inside the borders of Turkey. This incident was what caused Turkey to start attacking PKK bases in Northern Iraq.

My bad. All the more reason to give Turkey some lattitude here imho. We all knew this could happen.

[KukriKhan]

My bad. All the more reason to give Turkey some lattitude here imho. We all knew this could happen.

How about the Iranians (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSBLA43213320080224)? Same latitude given? They've shelled and crossed their border with Iraq, too.

[Fragony]

How about the Iranians (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSBLA43213320080224)? Same latitude given? They've shelled and crossed their border with Iraq, too.

No idea what's going on there, but the PKK is a real threat to Turkey's stability and Turkey has the right to defend itselve. What are they supposed to do, let the PKK do their thing and just wave at them once they hopped the border?

[KukriKhan]

... and Turkey has the right to defend itselve. What are they supposed to do, let the PKK do their thing and just wave at them once they hopped the border?

No argument from me on either point. The failure of Iraq to control its borders is the problem, IMO.

Turkey is obviously fed-up with incursions into their territory, and Iran as well. Syria may feel similarly, though for different reasons (they're housing Iraqi refugees). I'm just saying that the slippery slope begins with looking the other way when Turkey invades. What objection to self-defense incursions by Iraq's neighbors can Iraq, or their occupiers/'protectors' the US-led coalition, have, if they (the neighbors) are fired on by Iraq residents/citizens, or overwhelmed with fleeing refugees?

None, I think. Maybe the solution is to declare the Iraq Kurd areas "The Independent Canton of Kurdistan", tell the Kurds: 'this is all of Kurdistan you get; future land-grab efforts will be seen as invasions and dealt with accordingly.'?

[Fragony]

I'm just saying that the slippery slope begins with looking the other way when Turkey invades.

I think the slippery slope is us saying do what we say, not what we do. We simply cannot condemn Turkey for doing this it would be unfair. The PKK is a much bigger threat to Turkey then Saddam ever was to us, and you can hardly blame Iran or Syria for not desiring a stable Iraq.

[Tribesman]

you can hardly blame Iran or Syria for not desiring a stable Iraq.

Iran and Syria do desire a stable Iraq , its just that they desire it on their terms and as their friends , notice how the Iranian backed militias extended their ceasfire in order to get the international oil investment in their region .

[Fragony]

I don't know makes more sense that they would frustrate them.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

How about the Iranians (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSBLA43213320080224)? Same latitude given? They've shelled and crossed their border with Iraq, too.

To my knowledge, Kurdish forces have also been working against Iranian forces in Northern Iraq on occasion. It seems to me to be just as much Iran's right as Turkey's.

[KukriKhan]

That's what I'm saying, mate. Kurd separatist incursions into neighboring countries can encourage the gobbling up of Iraq into 'greater Turkey', 'greater Iran', 'greater Syria', 'greater Saudi Arabia', and 'greater Kuwait', all in the interests of (or with the excuse of) their own security. All because neither Iraq nor the coalition can or will rein in its residents and secure its border.

Pretty soon = 'Lesser Iraqistan' exists, populated by coalition military subcontractors and Exxon Oil executives. Problem solved?

[LeftEyeNine]

Taking roots from Kukri-sensei 's point, I have to say that we need to extend the Iraqi border towards the plains. Because it's just impossible to control incursions as long as the border follows routes over the mountains.

[Fragony]

To my knowledge, Kurdish forces have also been working against Iranian forces in Northern Iraq on occasion. It seems to me to be just as much Iran's right as Turkey's.

Says who? Seems very very unlikely to me, Turkey is big enough a bird for now, and the PKK would take on Iran? Me = not buying.

[LeftEyeNine]

Says who? Seems very very unlikely to me, Turkey is big enough a bird for now, and the PKK would take on Iran? Me = not buying.

It's PEJAK for the Iranian side of it, not PKK. Although I'm not really knowledgable about the severity of the actions of PEJAK in Iran, the same story more or less goes for Iran as well and therefore Iran may try to evaluate this "chance" as well.

[KukriKhan]

Says who? Seems very very unlikely to me, Turkey is big enough a bird for now, and the PKK would take on Iran? Me = not buying.

Says Reuters in my LINK in post #25 (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSBLA43213320080224) previous page.


Iranian forces have also often clashed in Iraqi border areas with rebels from the Party of Free Life of Kurdistan (PJAK), an offshoot of the PKK and which analysts say has bases in northeastern Iraq from where they operate against Iran.

-edit-

Oops, LEN got it. :)

[Fragony]

Says Reuters in my LINK in post #25 (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSBLA43213320080224) previous page.

Why would Iran take over places that could work against them, in the end whatever governs Iraq will be something that has western interests in mind. They would do better by just making a mess out of it, isn't like they have nothing going on there at home. And the Kurds don't need Iran on top of it, I call bull.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

And the Kurds don't need Iran on top of it, I call bull.

The Kurds claim that they should own the Kurdistan Province in Iran, and are fighting to get it.

[Fragony]

The Kurds claim that they should own the Kurdistan Province in Iran, and are fighting to get it.

If they are so stupid they wouldn't be a thread to anyone but they aren't that stupid. This is to Turkey what Palestina is to Israel, and Turkey nor Israel deserve a statue but common.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If they are so stupid they wouldn't be a thread to anyone but they aren't that stupid.

Kurds are fighting in Northern Iran, and in the border regions. It's as much of an established fact as the Kurdish operations in Turkey have been.

[Innocentius]

So you can take the vast majority of terrorist groups in the world and declare that they are not terrorists then Innocentius .
BTW since Al-qaida wasn't in Iraq (apart from the American protected Kurdish areas) when Iraq was invaded what has Al-qaida got to do with it ?

Yes, pretty much. I just think it's interesting how eager the US is in condemning various militias as terrorists (where the word terrorist is synonym for evil anti-American child-eater) while the USA was founded by such terrorists.

al-Qaeda was just an example. You could replace it with any random terrorist organization if you'd prefer that.

[Tribesman]

Why would Iran take over places that could work against them, in the end whatever governs Iraq will be something that has western interests in mind. They would do better by just making a mess out of it, isn't like they have nothing going on there at home. And the Kurds don't need Iran on top of it, I call bull.

You really shouldn't call bull when you are clearly wrong Frag .
Think about it .
Much of Americas "reliable" information about what to do in Iraq was from a group working for the ******** .
Americas original prefered political leadership for Iraq turned out to have been working for the ******** all along .
The major parties that have done well in elections in Iraq are parties that are backed by the ********.
The major winner in those elections was acually formed by the ******** in **** .
One of the two major Kurdish seperatist parties , the one with more weapons and more troops , is backed by the ******** .
The relatively major player in the South who claims not to be backed by the ******** recieves arms and funding from the ******** and "spiritually" is obliged to follow the ******** Iraqi cleric .

Now go through that and see if those * can fit anything other than Iranian or Iran without turning the statements false .
If you cannot substitute another word then they are clearly true and you shouldn' have called bull .

A I said earlier Iran and Syria do desire a stable Iraq , its just that they desire it on their terms and as their friends

[Fragony]

Or it was a trap, I don't know

[Tribesman]

Or it was a trap, I don't know
It could be , lets see .
What did they get out of it ?

Taliban largely screwed and focused elsewhere...
Saddam gone...
America tied down...
America with a huge and growing debt...
Americas army strained...
Bush looking like the idiot that he is...
International consensus after 9/11 splintered...
Severe doubts over intelligence cliams on WMD development...
An increase in anti-western feeling throughout the region...
A new excuse to clamp down further on dissent at home...
A massive increase in the value of their commodities...
An opening for bigger legal and illegal trade...
Their friends in power in Iraq....
The oppertunity to kill their enemies in Iraq...
Wider regional alliances(including with states who quite frankly hate and distrust the mullahs in Iran)...
A nice training ground for the revolutionary guards and their apprentices....

The list could go on and on .
Perhaps it wasn't a trap, perhaps the Iranians just got really really unbelievably lucky .

[LeftEyeNine]

DING DING DING DING DING ! End of Round Two.


Turkey withdraws troops from northern Iraq

A statement by Turkey’s armed forces General Staff denied any foreign influence on the decision, which came a day after U.S President George W. Bush urged a swift end to offensive.

09:21 ET 29 Şubat 2008 Cuma

ANKARA - Turkey pulled its troops out of northern Iraq on Friday, ending a major offensive against PKK terrorists that Washington feared could spread conflict through the region.

A statement by Turkey’s armed forces General Staff denied any foreign influence on the decision, which came a day after U.S President George W. Bush urged a swift end to offensive.

“There was no question of completely liquidating the
terrorist organisation, but Turkey has shown the organisation
that northern Iraq is not a safe haven for them,” the General
Staff said.

Turkey sent thousands of soldiers into remote, mountainous
northern Iraq on Feb. 21 to crush terrorists of the PKK who use the region as a base for
attacks on Turkish territory.

“It was determined that the aims set at the start of the
operation had been achieved,” the General Staff said in a
statement. “Our units returned to their bases (in Turkey) on the
morning of Feb. 29.”

Announcing the withdrawal ahead of the General Staff, Iraqi
Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari told Reuters in Baghdad that
his government welcomed the move.

Turkey’s political and military leaders had pledged the
operation would continue for as long as necessary but U.S.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates, on a brief trip to Ankara on
Thursday, urged a short and carefully targeted campaign.

Washington, like Ankara and the EU, brands the PKK a
terrorist organisation, and has been supplying intelligence to
the Turkish military on the PKK in Iraq.

PKK WEAKENED
Turkey’s military said it had killed 240 terrorists in the
eight-day ground offensive and suffered the loss of 27 soldiers.

Turkey had said the ground operation, backed by warplanes,
tanks, long-range artillery and attack helicopters, would
continue until PKK bases were erased and the terrorists no longer
posed a threat to Turkey.

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/437542.asp

I guess we'll never be able to exactly know about what USA's role was, if so, during this round.