European Union

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I saw one of Nigel Farage's videos on YouTube due to a link in the Backroom Video Thread. While I've been pretty neutral on the EU before, hearing an actual counter-opinion on this issue for once has, I believe, opened my eyes a little more to what the European Union is. To be honest, I think I've lost a little respect for Angela Merkel as well - though not enough to vote SPD, Green, or FDP, of course.

So what do you think? Watch the videos for some interesting thoughts.

Nigel Farage on Tony Blair (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=grLmZGlzBW8&feature=related)

Chicken Run (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=grLmZGlzBW8&feature=related)

President's "Power Grab" (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=QVeMBNB0cII&feature=user)

EDIT: I might as well state my opinion, as well as adding another video. While Germany is the most powerful member of the EU, I still think I'm against it to a certain extent, because:

1) We siphon off money to poorer nations in the EU.
2) The EU, as shown by the video below, seems "a little" corrupt.
3) I like the idea of nationalism - not nationalistic militarism, or nationalistic intolerance, but nationalism in the sense each nation must preserve it's own borders, culture, and sovereignty.

Who's Who in the EU (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=YWSYMpuCFaQ)

[InsaneApache]

if you persist down this path you will be portrayed as 'swivel eyed' and 'a headbanger'. Cease and desist fithwith.

This message has been brought to you curtesy of the EU. You will obey.

[JAG]

Headbanger!

[Husar]

Yes, that video was interesting, but then it's not like other governments are a lot better, or in other words, the EU government consists of members of our governments etc blabla and in the end we just vote for this or that stupid idiotic new law/tax/younameit, whether it's on a local level, national level or EU level.
The good thing is that a few of the laws are actually not bad(just guessing, the good one prolly don't make it into the press).
But seriously, how often does someone who is elected actually solve the problems at hand in an effective, lasting or otherwise "good" way? :inquisitive:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Edited OP.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

My position, added to the OP:


1) We siphon off money to poorer nations in the EU.
2) The EU, as seen by the video below, seems "a little" corrupt.
3) I like the idea of nationalism - not nationalistic militarism, or nationalistic intolerance, but nationalism in the sense each nation must preserve it's own borders, culture, and sovereignty.

So, what do you think? Is the EU a corrupt, undemocratic mass, or not?

[Ice]

My position, added to the OP:


Numbers 1 and 2 are why I like limiting the scope of our federal government.

Anyways I don't really have an opinion about the EU considering it doesn't really affect my sovereignty and every day life, but I do think a United Europe is in the best interest of Europeans, although I would be wary of an EU with too much power.

[Fragony]

How very populistic of you to have doubts. Can't you see it's all for the better? EU roxxors and we all know what happened to the jews.

hmmm doesn't quite work when I do it...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Anyways I don't really have an opinion about the EU considering it doesn't really affect my sovereignty and every day life, but I do think a United Europe is in the best interest of Europeans, although I would be wary of an EU with too much power.

A United Europe is the whole reason the sovereignty argument comes up. A single-country EU takes away the sovereignty of it's components - I do not want Germany to become a state of the EU, albiet the most powerful one.

Sovereignty and a United Europe cannot coexist.

Why do you say it is in our best interests? The individual countries of Europe are already powerful, especially Germany and France.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

if you persist down this path you will be portrayed as 'swivel eyed' and 'a headbanger'. Cease and desist fithwith.

This message has been brought to you curtesy of the EU. You will obey.

As an Englishman (I presume), what's you opinion on the EU?

[Marshal Murat]

I think it'll be more in favor of a Europe United, rather than a United Europe. The many nations have different cultural components, languages, and have a history of killing each other. To be fair, it's worked so far, but that's because the EU has some power, but not enough to threaten any one nation.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I think it'll be more in favor of a Europe United, rather than a United Europe. The many nations have different cultural components, languages, and have a history of killing each other. To be fair, it's worked so far, but that's because the EU has some power, but not enough to threaten any one nation.

But with the Lisbon Treaty, for example, the power of the EU can increase drastically (watch the videos). Europe worked just fine before the EU, did it not?

[Marshal Murat]

Well, that's the interesting part. Conventional thinking would say that uniting forces would improve everyone's chances. NATO, UN, coalitions, confederacies. This is another step on the road to globalisms. However, the EU may be driving global unity rather than following it.

In my thinking, everyone's okay with the trade agreements, but unwilling to surrender their sovereignty or really try to become 'European'.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Well, that's the interesting part. Conventional thinking would say that uniting forces would improve everyone's chances. NATO, UN, coalitions, confederacies. This is another step on the road to globalisms. However, the EU may be driving global unity rather than following it.

Quite. However, there is the philosophy that if everyone is equally rich, then everyone becomes poor.

That being said, the EU is trying to force the unity of Europe, instead of letting it either go at it's own pace, or not happen at all.


In my thinking, everyone's okay with the trade agreements, but unwilling to surrender their sovereignty or really try to become 'European'.

That is essentially the entire issue. Free trade and travel among EU citizens is something I have no problem with (until illegal immigration rears it's ugly head), and, indeed, is what the nations originally signed on to. However, the EU is gradually wearing away our sovereignty, and, as you can see above, is not exactly taking the most democratic measures in doing so.

[Ice]

Why do you say it is in our best interests? The individual countries of Europe are already powerful, especially Germany and France.

There is strength in numbers, unless you enjoy being a patsy under NATO.


A United Europe is the whole reason the sovereignty argument comes up. A single-country EU takes away the sovereignty of it's components - I do not want Germany to become a state of the EU, albiet the most powerful one.

Hence my comment of an EU with too much power.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

There is strength in numbers, unless you enjoy being a patsy under NATO.

Yes, but I'd prefer being a little less strong than losing my sovereignty. I mean, Germany's already the most powerful country in the EU, so why would I complain otherwise?

Also, Germany is the second or third strongest nation in NATO, definitely behind America, and possibly behind Britain. NATO also does not threaten our sovereignty.

[Caerfanan]

Yes, but I'd prefer being a little less strong than losing my sovereignty. I mean, Germany's already the most powerful country in the EU, so why would I complain otherwise?

And then, some guy from Bavaria should definitely start to think that people from the East Part of Germany are Siphoning their Money.... And that Germany takes its sovereignty.

But wait a moment, those from Fustenfeldbruck.. Aren't they taking money (and sovereignty) from Munich?

If I go back to my country, I really think that a long time ago, some "conservative, what for anyway people" were saying, in several Regions, that "France" was abusing their sovereignty, etc, etc....

So when speaking of "nation" you should speak in temrms of history as well. As you are German and I French, what about Alsace/Elsatz. It's been german, french, german...

You are now "protecting" some limits that were rejected before.

My opinion on that subject is that having corrupted chiefs is bad, but does not mean that we don't need one. And that to avoid to have people grumbling that some bureaucrat from the "region capital/country capital/continent capital" shouldn't decide for them, we should have good local "governments": say , a city responsible for it's roads, a region for its airport, etc, etc... Maybe with some "solidarity" between people. So as to avoid to have poor regions / Rich regions having arguments. (think of belgium)

So a strong European Union is something we need. An to our american friends, please: why being wary of a strong Europe?

[ajaxfetish]

An to our american friends, please: why being wary of a strong Europe?
I think most of those American's expressing doubt are also wary of a strong America, in the sense of a strong federal government. The idea is that the more local a government is, the more accurately it follows the will of its members (considering the deficiencies of some local governments, that may be debatable, but a local government would certainly be easier to change or overthrow if its citizens got sufficiently riled up), so governments higher in the hierarchy should be as comparatively weak as is reasonably possible.

Ajax

[InsaneApache]

As an Englishman (I presume), what's you opinion on the EU?

I've made my position clear on this issue several times over the last 6 years or so, however to recap....

The EU is being driven by a political elite that cares not one jot for democracy or transparency. Untruths, corruption, overregulation and gerrymandring occur on an unprecedented scale.

Time after time referendums have been held that directly counter the elites preferred route. Single currency, Nice treaty, EU constitution ad infinitum have all been put to referenda and have all been rejected by the electorate. Only for the elite to ignore or more perversely hold referendum after referendum until the voter give the 'right' answer.

A good example is when the UK joined the 'Common Market'. I thought this was a splendid idea, free movement and trade within the zone. We were told in 1975 when we had our referendum that this is all it would be. A free trading bloc. This was patently not true. The EEC became the EC, which then morphed into the EU. This is not what we were asked to vote on, it was a lie.

It's a bit like a political party putting a promise in it's manifesto (http://www.iwantareferendum.com/involved.aspx) and then when elected reneging on its commitment......oh wait....

I rest my case.

[Fragony]

If that wasn't enough,

http://www.amazon.com/Eurabia-Euro-Arab-Axis-Bat-YeOr/dp/083864077X

^-essential reading

ah http://books.google.nl/books?id=hfK9SqHSaccC&dq=eurabia+the+%22euro+arab%22+axis&pg=PP1&ots=bmZAp02YRf&sig=8uLxHusToUFwoSC0hBQkVn18bx4&hl=nl&prev=http://www.google.nl/search?q=Eurabia:+The+Euro-Arab+Axis&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B2GGFB_nlNL242&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPA10,M1

[JR-]

EDIT: I might as well state my opinion, as well as adding another video. While Germany is the most powerful member of the EU, I still think I'm against it to a certain extent, because:

1) We siphon off money to poorer nations in the EU.
2) The EU, as seen by the video below, seems "a little" corrupt.
3) I like the idea of nationalism - not nationalistic militarism, or nationalistic intolerance, but nationalism in the sense each nation must preserve it's own borders, culture, and sovereignty.

haha, i have been of this view for a long time now. :)

[Upxl]

The EU is being driven by a political elite that cares not one jot for democracy or transparency. Untruths, corruption, overregulation and gerrymandring occur on an unprecedented scale.

that’s politics,
There all a bunch of money sucking ,bigheaded *****
Learn to live with it or get in the there and fix it!


Time after time referendums have been held that directly counter the elites preferred route. Single currency, Nice treaty, EU constitution ad infinitum have all been put to referenda and have all been rejected by the electorate. Only for the elite to ignore or more perversely hold referendum after referendum until the voter give the 'right' answer.

Although I'm a firm believer in democracy, referendums are totally moronic on this scale and shouldn't even been held.
The masses are stupid and very influential.
To much factors involved that can influence the outcome.
from present day politics in ones own country to did or did you not stump your toe on the way to the bathroom this morning?!
Besides to cast a vote like that one,one has to be firmly informed in the why's and why not’s .I seriously very much doubt that even 50 % of the people had any idea what they where voting pro or contra for.


A good example is when the UK joined the 'Common Market'. I thought this was a splendid idea, free movement and trade within the zone. We were told in 1975 when we had our referendum that this is all it would be. A free trading bloc. This was patently not true. The EEC became the EC, which then morphed into the EU. This is not what we were asked to vote on, it was a lie.

Face the facts
you cant expect to have a voice in the world when going against upcoming power blocks like China or India.
Then you have reviving and starting in showing its teeth again Russia.
You got to have money and muscle to do that with a huge population to back it up.
Even the UK some day must wake up and see that the empire of past is gone!
Although everyone still cherishes a great amount of respect towards the uk and some scraps still remain, (this will not last forever) it really is gone!
You want to be a small piece of zilch and listen to and playing by the big boy's rules fine,i don’t!

Pixel is loosing his patience, i apologize.

It’s far from perfect, nothing is but it’s a fine idea and I’ll say it again: If all these variations of cultures can prove being able in working towards a same goal a same direction it’s the only provide evidence mankind has in not blowing itself up into thousands of smithereens.

I’m pro EU in case you where still pondering that one Evil_Maniac. :yes:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

And then, some guy from Bavaria should definitely start to think that people from the East Part of Germany are Siphoning their Money.... And that Germany takes its sovereignty.

Eastern Germany is a drain on the West, but, nonetheless, they are German, and deserve aid.

There is a small faction that thinks Bavaria deserves sovereignty, but Bavarians are German. They have had the opportunity to split, and haven't. That example doesn't ring.



So when speaking of "nation" you should speak in temrms of history as well. As you are German and I French, what about Alsace/Elsatz. It's been german, french, german...

You want my frank answer? It's been German for longer. However, I believe that the populace of that region should be given a referendum and the right to choose between Germany, France, and being an autonomous state, if they so desire.


You are now "protecting" some limits that were rejected before.

How?


Maybe with some "solidarity" between people. So as to avoid to have poor regions / Rich regions having arguments. (think of belgium)

That's how it's always worked. It is my personal belief that everyone cannot be rich or equal in terms of money, land, etc. We don't need to be united - all we'll achieve then is strong seperatist factions, like those that already exist in Spain, Kosovo, and Quebec.

Europe, in the last fifty years, has been stable. This has preserved our cultural identities, our sovereignty as a nation, our right to choose our own laws, and our right to keep our own money if we so choose.

The EU has no right to do this for us, anymore than the UN has the right to rule the world.

Unity is not necessarily the best thing.

We do not need a strong European Union - we need, at most, a European discussion forum, and European cooperation - not unity.

[Ignoramus]

The EU will never work, for the simple fact that Europe is one of the most diverse continents in terms of culture, language, and tradition. What's more, the EU is based on a common "European idea". There is no common European idea. Europeans don't think of themselves as Europeans, they think of themselves as British, Germans, Croatians, Russians etc.

[InsaneApache]

@ Upxl The arguments you put forward do not justify the rush to turn Europe into a country. Indeed they only reinforce my position that Europe should be a trading bloc no more. You're just arguing against yourself.

As for the 'people' being too stupid to decide they're own fate, you don't happen to be left wing do you? :sweatdrop:

[Conradus]

Europe worked just fine before the EU, did it not?

You're not forgetting those 15 centuries of bloodshed are you?

[Viking]

I doubt the EU is to blame for the long lasting peace. :clown:

[Fragony]

Oh I guess they have scared the beejezus out of me over nothing then.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The EU will never work, for the simple fact that Europe is one of the most diverse continents in terms of culture, language, and tradition. What's more, the EU is based on a common "European idea". There is no common European idea. Europeans don't think of themselves as Europeans, they think of themselves as British, Germans, Croatians, Russians etc.

Ignoramus hit the nail on the head with this one.


You're not forgetting those 15 centuries of bloodshed are you?

Of course not, but it happened everywhere at one point, now didn't it? War was considered acceptable diplomacy, and the EU had nothing to do with Europe now being at peace. That is my point.

[Upxl]

Upxl The arguments you put forward do not justify the rush to turn Europe into a country. Indeed they only reinforce my position that Europe should be a trading bloc no more. You're just arguing against yourself.
Yes, a nice clever remark to make Insane.
I bow at your wisdom and insight.:bow:


As for the 'people' being too stupid to decide they're own fate, you don't happen to be left wing do you?
History has proven my statement to be true.
The future will do nothing less and i aint no commi if that’s what your asking.


The EU will never work, for the simple fact that Europe is one of the most diverse continents in terms of culture, language, and tradition.
Bullocks bullocks bullocks.
Look a little bit further and you see that our cultures are not that different.
I’ve been almost to every single country in Europe and I’ve also been to many places beyond its borders.
You want to know what a different culture is?…India is a different culture my friend ,Japan, China Africa, S-America,… those are different cultures!
Look a little bit further and you’ll see that our differences are really minute.
Besides as far as I’m concerned this is no argument.
Were all still humans, that should be more then sufficient.

Language, as I said I’ve been to almost every country in the EU and I got bye pretty fine.
Not ones had to get my dictionary out, after a while I stopped bothering buying one.
Reason? ENGLISH mate!
What does it matter really, those different languages you can get bye everywhere nowadays certainly in Europe with English.
And this will only improve.

Tradition,… for goodness sake, seriously? .
I have a tradition of urinating in the bushes in my street when I come home from a drinking night,that doesn’t mean I’ll go knocking on my neighbours doors and order them to follow my example.
They and I don’t care.


What's more, the EU is based on a common "European idea". There is no common European idea.

Want an idea I’ll give you an Idea...
No wait, i guess peace would be a way too simpel and naïve thing to say.
Nonetheless my answer is at least as ridiculous as your statement.


Europeans don't think of themselves as Europeans, they think of themselves as British, Germans, Croatians, Russians etc.

Speak for yourself.
I’m European first, Belgian second.
And I know I’m not alone in this.
Besides;“we made Europa now we must make Europeans.” A very clever man said this.
Only a matter of time anyway

I really am sorry for being this aggressive :shame:

[Conradus]

Of course not, but it happened everywhere at one point, now didn't it? War was considered acceptable diplomacy, and the EU had nothing to do with Europe now being at peace. That is my point.

And it's still happening all over the world, but not in Europe these last 50 years.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

History has proven my statement to be true.
The future will do nothing less and i aint no commi if that’s what your asking.

That stems from the vast majority of the people being uninformed about the EU, a status which the EU encourages.



You want to know what a different culture is?…India is a different culture my friend ,Japan, China Africa, S-America,… those are different cultures!
Look a little bit further and you’ll see that our differences are really minute.
Besides as far as I’m concerned this is no argument.

We are ALL different cultures within Europe. We have different languages, different cuisines, different traditions, different everything. Go to France and tell a Frenchman he's now a German, and vice versa. What will the reaction be?


Were all still humans, that should be more then sufficient.
Does that mean the world should be united into a single government?


Language, as I said I’ve been to almost every country in the EU and I got bye pretty fine.
That's because English is taught everywhere. That's not a reason for unity, unless you want the UK, Canada, or America to rule the world?


Tradition,… for goodness sake, seriously? .
I have a tradition of urinating in the bushes in my street when I come home from a drinking night,that doesn’t mean I’ll go knocking on my neighbours doors and order them to follow my example.

Yes, seriously. We all have our own traditions, our own customs, and our own beliefs. Tradition is important to the world - I mean real tradition, and culture, things passed down through the generations, not what you do when you're drunk.



Want an idea I’ll give you an Idea...
No wait, i guess peace would be a way too simpel and naïve thing to say.
Nonetheless my answer is at least as ridiculous as your statement.

Europe has been at peace for over fifty years, the vast majority of that without the EU. We do not need the EU.


Speak for yourself.
I’m European first, Belgian second.
And I know I’m not alone in this.
Besides;“we made Europa now we must make Europeans.” A very clever man said this.

I am German first, Prussian second, Bavarian third, and European fourth - that would be if I believed a such thing as a standard "European" culture existed, which it doesn't.

We are all different nations, and to be effective, we need to be governed differently. One central government will not be good for all the nations.

[Fragony]

Would I am dutch and the netherlands is a country in europe, and that's it. Feel much closer to america/canada then any european nation; feel more at home there we have much more in common.

[Viking]

Besides;“we made Europa now we must make Europeans.” A very clever man said this.


No no, we are all homo sapiens habitating Earth with silly customs varying from one geographical location to another. :clown:

[Sarmatian]

We are ALL different cultures within Europe. We have different languages, different cuisines, different traditions, different everything. Go to France and tell a Frenchman he's now a German, and vice versa. What will the reaction be?


Well, don't you have different cuisines, different traditions, different religions and different dialects in Germany?

I mean, every single European country is based on greco-roman culture. In the end, we all have the same ideals and same cultural values and the same way of life.

The only real difference between European nations is language...

[Viking]

Well, don't you have different cuisines, different traditions, different religions and different dialects in Germany?

A very valid point. But what does a more mixed culture really matter anyway; I enjoy pizza and noodles and welcome them both as new members to my culture. :clown:



Go to France and tell a Frenchman he's now a German, and vice versa. What will the reaction be?

All Europeans are already Europeans, that analogy is not valid.

[Caerfanan]

We are ALL different cultures within Europe. We have different languages, different cuisines, different traditions, different everything. Go to France and tell a Frenchman he's now a German, and vice versa. What will the reaction be?
Well my first reaction would be to say that it's a stupid statement... So because, for instance, Germany is a country which include many things, Berliners are now Munichers and vice-versa? That's odd. I mean, I'm french, I I don't consder myself automatically from every single part of France... Why would this be different about Europe?

What's probably granted though is that you would probably be the guy who would have strugled against the creation of a unified germany by saying something like Bavaria isn't Prussia, different cultures, etc...


I am German first, Prussian second, Bavarian third, and European fourth - that would be if I believed a such thing as a standard "European" culture existed, which it doesn't.
That's odd, again... But explainable: big structure where you were born first, sub-structures of aforementioned big structure, were you lived or where your parents are from, second, then any structure which would appear after your coming in the age of realising stuff...

In my opinion EU is about building something. and not only on selfish interests... Which is a hard thing to do when everyone first grabs the cover to pull it to oneself...

[InsaneApache]

Well, don't you have different cuisines, different traditions, different religions and different dialects in Germany?

I mean, every single European country is based on greco-roman culture. In the end, we all have the same ideals and same cultural values and the same way of life.

The only real difference between European nations is language...

err.......no it's not.

Where did you get that one from? :inquisitive:


In the end, we all have the same ideals and same cultural values and the same way of life.

Again, not true, where did you get that one from? :inquisitive:

[Vladimir]

err.......no it's not.

Where did you get that one from? :inquisitive:



Again, not true, where did you get that one from? :inquisitive:


It's called Mirror Imaging.

[InsaneApache]

Never heard of it. Must be a Greco-Roman thingy then. :laugh4:

[Sigurd]

IMO the largest argument against a unified Europe is its sense or understanding of security.
I would claim there is no common European comprehension of security or the need for security. Some of the world’s top conflicts of interests runs trough Europe.

Just take sources of energy.
Mediterranean Europe is completely dependant of North African and Middle Eastern sources of energy while North Europe gets their energy from Norway and Russia.
France is nearly self-contained when it comes to energy while Great Britain imports much fossil energy for their production of electricity. Norway delivers 1/3 of the gas Germany consumes.
There are divisions within EU each time the individual nation’s interests are threatened. Just take the Iraq war. There weren’t exactly a single purpose from the European nations. You could basically take a quick look at where the different nations got their energy to predict their stand in said conflict.

[Husar]

Aren't all these differences exactly why it's good to have a common open table to discuss things instead of the secret diplomacy we had before we started banging eachothers heads in twice? :inquisitive:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What's probably granted though is that you would probably be the guy who would have strugled against the creation of a unified germany by saying something like Bavaria isn't Prussia, different cultures, etc...

I probably would have been, were I not a mix of the two. Being more Prussian than Bavarian, on the other hand, I probably would have supported unity in that case. However, that was a very different time. Also, the Germanic peoples are much closer to each other in culture, food, and language than the Poles or French are to Germany.


In my opinion EU is about building something. and not only on selfish interests... Which is a hard thing to do when everyone first grabs the cover to pull it to oneself...

The EU is corrupt, it siphons away our money that we should be spending to revitalize East Germany, and I dislike it's bullheadedness in achieving European unity.


Here's a question for you:

America and Canada are probably much more similar in culture than Germany, Poland, and France (I know some Canadians will object, but I can explain my reasoning). Why don't they unite?


InsaneApache also made two good points just above.

[JR-]

I have no bond of shared culture or history with the continent, therefore i do not trust them to make decisions in my name.

I am British > Anglosphere > Commonwealth > English > NATO > Nothing.

I trust Britain to act in my name, and i would trust the Anglosphere to act likewise, the EU doesn't even figure on this short list.

I consider european nations to be ineffective by and large. France i consider effective but i don't trust them to act in Britains interest, why should they?

[Sarmatian]

err.......no it's not.

Where did you get that one from? :inquisitive:

Logic... Shakespeare didn't write about Boudicea, he wrote about Julius Caesar and Augustus.

Modern british state organization has more in common with ancient Rome than celtic or german tribal organizations.

Legal system in entire Europe is based on Roman law, albeit less in Britain then other European states.

Even language has a great deal of words that are either greek roman in origin...

Are you saying that modern British culture has more in common with Celtic culture than greco-roman?

I'm not saying that every little thing is the same, culture was adapted, but essentialy, it is the same.

[InsaneApache]

Logic... Shakespeare didn't write about Boudicea, he wrote about Julius Caesar and Augustus.

He also wrote Hamlet, about Denmark, so what's your point?


Modern british state organization has more in common with ancient Rome than celtic or german tribal organizations.

Nope, where do you get your information? The modern UK is nothing like Rome. We are not a republic, (well we were for about 5 years), we are a parliamentary constitutional monarchy.


Legal system in entire Europe is based on Roman law, albeit less in Britain then other European states.

Napoleon possibly on the mainland but no where near in the UK. Our legal system is more like the American one, now there's a surprise!


Even language has a great deal of words that are either greek roman in origin...

Not English old bean, not English. :toff:


Are you saying that modern British culture has more in common with Celtic culture than greco-roman?

British culture includes Celtic culture, ever heard of Scots, Welsh and Irish?


I'm not saying that every little thing is the same, culture was adapted, but essentialy, it is the same.

I think we can safely say that UK culture is distinct in almost every respect from that of continental europe.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Not English old bean, not English. :toff:


That's the only one I'd have to disagree on. Latin and Greek influences are common in the English language, though not quite as common as in the Romance Languages.

[InsaneApache]

That's the only one I'd have to disagree on. Latin and Greek influences are common in the English language, though not quite as common as in the Romance Languages.

Well they were 'added' later on. The root of English is not Latin or Greek.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Well they were 'added' later on. The root of English is not Latin or Greek.

Ah, I misunderstood your point - I presumed you were talking about the state of modern English as a whole, not it's origins.

[Sarmatian]

He also wrote Hamlet, about Denmark, so what's your point?



Nope, where do you get your information? The modern UK is nothing like Rome. We are not a republic, (well we were for about 5 years), we are a parliamentary constitutional monarchy.



Napoleon possibly on the mainland but no where near in the UK. Our legal system is more like the American one, now there's a surprise!



Not English old bean, not English. :toff:



British culture includes Celtic culture, ever heard of Scots, Welsh and Irish?



I think we can safely say that UK culture is distinct in almost every respect from that of continental europe.

Granted, England has always been something else. I don't want to argue about how much exactly greco-roman influence there was on british culture (I still think more than celtic, but it doesn't matter). Suffice to say that it did have a lot of influence. When I said greek and latin words I meant modern english. But ok, I'll rephrase what I said.

Most countries in Europe are basd on greco-roman culture. OK, now?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Most countries in Europe are basd on greco-roman culture. OK, now?

How Greco-Roman would you say Germany, Poland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark are? If you want a union based on that, maybe the new subdivided EU would appear to be something like this:

https://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9465/neweufs0.png

[Viking]

Oh, I am sure NATO is such a horrible idea, the cultures of the nations involved are too different from each other. :no:

[InsaneApache]

and your point being?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Oh, I am sure NATO is such a horrible idea, the cultures of the nations involved are too different from each other. :no:

NATO is a military alliance, not something that is rapidly on the road to becoming a nation - they're two very different things.

[Conradus]

How Greco-Roman would you say Germany, Poland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark are? If you want a union based on that, maybe the new subdivided EU would appear to be something like this:

https://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9465/neweufs0.png

We Flemish don't have a greco-roman culture:shocked2:

[Viking]

and your point being?

NATO is a military alliance, not something that is rapidly on the road to becoming a nation - they're two very different things.

A political alliance it is. Point being nation banding together to be stronger than they are alone, a logical step. Alone, few if any European nations have any mention wothy impact on the world. If Europe became a nation with alot of different culture within, then so what. It is a nation that would have something to say, rather than a continent getting squeezed by the conflict between the US and Russia, because the countries does not want to unite. There are though, those who like stay weak, huh?

[InsaneApache]

Apart from England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, The Netherlands, Flemish Belgium and Austria, what have the Greco-Romans ever done for us? :laugh4: :oops: :egypt:

[Sarmatian]

Ok, guys, I think I am being misunderstood here, and it is my fault. I try to explain a complicated issue with just a few sentences. Ok, let's go from the beggining. Few thousand years ago, in Europe, people lived usually in tribes, sometimes part of a bigger confederation of tribes, some of them nomad, some of them sedentery, usually living in houses made of earth and wood and so on so forth. Their thought usually didn't go much further then "What I am going to eat today". They worshipped trees, rivers, sky, listened to their medicine men/shamans/witch doctors/druids and lived happily ever after.

At the same time some other guys who called themselves Hellens, started to question things around them and to burden themselves with abstract, not just material stuff. They developed alphabet, poetry, literature, mathematics, geography, history, medicine, philosophy, sculpting etc... all the things we take for granted today, which were virtually unknown at the time. They had brilliant men among them who wrote books about state and state organization, what's a citizen supposed to do, what is state supposed to do, what should be obligations of both. They created organized centers of learning, for that knowledge to be passed on. They built magnificent buildings from lasting materials using their knowledge. In short, they were totally on another level from other people in Europe (mind you, I am only talking about Europe, not Asia or Africa).

Then another warring people, Romans rose up and conquered Hellens. Although they were conquerors, they adopted almost everything from the Greeks in terms of culture, science and religion. Actually they did more than just adopt, they adapted it and added to it. They were ingenious people in their own right, so we have complex state structure, codified law on a scale never seen before, new building methods, road networks, irrigation systems, plumbing (what have the romans ever done for us?) etc... After that they conquered bigger part of Europe and spread that cultural mix to areas they've conquered. Somewhere so effectively that they completely erased traces of other cultural influence like in territory of modern France or Spain. But, nothing lasts forever and western part of the Roman Empire fell to the barbarians. That coupled with the influence of the Church assured that most of christian europe fell in what is known as the dark ages. Dark ages are a step back from enlightening ideas and values of the classical era. But then again, nothing lasts forever...

In the XIV century, first in Italy, bright and educated people started advocating returning to those ancient values and ideas. That was period was called the renesaince, and it saw resurgance of them. But this time, it wasn't limited to an area controlled by a single empire. No, it spread like wildfire all over Europe, from Italy to Netherlands and England and even further, influencing brightest minds of that time to start a cultural revolution on a scale never seen before. That revolution was based almost exclusively on the teachings, ideas, art, culture etc... of ancient Greeks and Romans, and in a way asserted dominance of those ideas and values all over Europe much more than roman conquests have done. After that, bright minds took that even further constantly improving and building on it untill we reach modern age today. And in that way Greco-Roman culture, teachings and values are the basis of Western civilization. So, I wasn't saying that all nations are somehow direct descendents from Greeks or Romans, that there is no other culture in Europe, that that culture didn't mix and wasn't influenced by local culture/customs/traditions, but in the end, it was the greek philosopher not celtic druid that laid the foundations of the Western civilizations, in which we include all modern European nations. And in that sense I said "All European countries are based on greco-roman culture".

This is what I was trying to say, thanks for bearing with me...

[Vladimir]

A political alliance it is. Point being nation banding together to be stronger than they are alone, a logical step. Alone, few if any European nations have any mention wothy impact on the world. If Europe became a nation with alot of different culture within, then so what. It is a nation that would have something to say, rather than a continent getting squeezed by the conflict between the US and Russia, because the countries does not want to unite. There are though, those who like stay weak, huh?

You're not still stuck on the '80s are you? Europe isn't in a conflict between the US and Russia but between Europe and Russia. Who knows, maybe you'll crack the fusion power nut and save us all. A united Europe poses a great danger to Russia.

[Viking]

You're not still stuck on the '80s are you? Europe isn't in a conflict between the US and Russia but between Europe and Russia. Who knows, maybe you'll crack the fusion power nut and save us all. A united Europe poses a great danger to Russia.

Hmm, what was the conflict regarding the missile shield about now again? Who is it that constantly thumb down the US resolutions in the security council, and vice versa? It is not Russia, because the US loves their ruski comrades and vice versa. :2thumbsup:

Yes, Putin & co is not fond of democracy, so their interest are in conflict with Europe; but Europe has no use for a US rocket shield, thus we are stuck between.

[Vladimir]

Hmm, what was the conflict regarding the missile shield about now again? Who is it that constantly thumb down the US resolutions in the security council, and vice versa? It is not Russia, because the US loves their ruski comrades and vice versa. :2thumbsup:

Yes, Putin & co is not fond of democracy, so their interest are in conflict with Europe; but Europe has no use for a US rocket shield, thus we are stuck between.

:rolleyes: The same conflict you people (http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2244756.ece) are having.

So you speak for Europe now? Or Norway does? We = Norway = YOU /= Europe.

Do you really think this has anything to do with democracy? You are stuck in the Cold War.

Read up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_dividend).

[Viking]

:rolleyes: The same conflict you people (http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2244756.ece) are having.

There are many different conflicts; but the U.S.' interests typically differ from the European.


Do you really think this has anything to do with democracy?

Yes, how many real democratic nations do Russia support? Democracy could ruin Putin's great plans; he would maybe not have enough support in the people. By plans I do not mean action; I mean what he achieves in his dreams at night. :2thumbsup:



You are stuck in the Cold War.

Try again. Russia was only a wet dream and a silenced past at the time.

[Vladimir]

There are many different conflicts; but the U.S.' interests typically differ from the European.

Yes, how many real democratic nations do Russia support? Democracy could ruin Putin's great plans; he would maybe not have enough support in the people. By plans I do not mean action; I mean what he achieves in his dreams at night. :2thumbsup:

Try again. Russia was only a wet dream and a silenced past at the time.

If you do a comparison I'm sure you'll find that the US and Europe have a greater percentage of similar interests than each has with other regions. The differences vary greatly from state to state.

Putin loves democracy! If he can control it. It's not a competition between forms of government more but traditional old-school power games. I think Europe (to exclude Norway) is fairly safe from Russian aggression. After all, who would buy their fuel?

I don't quite understand your last sentence but the only things that are making Russia wet are oil and gas.

[Viking]

If you do a comparison I'm sure you'll find that the US and Europe have a greater percentage of similar interests than each has with other regions. The differences vary greatly from state to state.

Most European states have different interests, depending on how near Russia they are. The US is on the other side of the pond; the interests differs even more and they need to be put in a much more global context.


Putin loves democracy! If he can control it. It's not a competition between forms of government more but traditional old-school power games. I think Europe (to exclude Norway) is fairly safe from Russian aggression. After all, who would buy their fuel?

As it is today, every European nation is safe for Russian aggression; Russia just like showing of their might, like the recent increase in Russian aerial activity in the Barents Sea.
By the way, Saddam Hussein liked his democracy too.


I don't quite understand your last sentence but the only things that are making Russia wet are oil and gas.

Well I can give you a hint: Russia did not exist. Yet. :2thumbsup:

[Vladimir]

Well I can give you a hint: Russia did not exist. Yet. :2thumbsup:

Russia has been around for a very long time. Part of which can still be considered a part of Europe.

[Viking]

Russia has been around for a very long time. Part of which can still be considered a part of Europe.

Yes, but the two major participants in the Cold War were the US and the Soviet Union. Russia was having a break. :daisy:

[Sarmatian]

Well, only an idiot can expect that country as big and as powerful as Russia stand on the sidelines of the world politics forever. They had their problems, with the revolution, corruption, transition but now they are slowly getting up and it is perfectly normal that they want a say in almost all issues.

Personally, I think that EU should try to bring Russia closer instead of pushing it away. Pushing away the country that is the richest in resources in the world, when the world is on a brink of an energy crisis is a very bad move...

[Pannonian]

Well, only an idiot can expect that country as big and as powerful as Russia stand on the sidelines of the world politics forever. They had their problems, with the revolution, corruption, transition but now they are slowly getting up and it is perfectly normal that they want a say in almost all issues.

Personally, I think that EU should try to bring Russia closer instead of pushing it away. Pushing away the country that is the richest in resources in the world, when the world is on a brink of an energy crisis is a very bad move...
The problem is that we've realised we're a bit too dependent on Russian resources for our own good, so we're trying to keep them reasonably happy while looking for ways to wean ourselves off Russian gas.

[Vladimir]

Well, only an idiot can expect that country as big and as powerful as Russia stand on the sidelines of the world politics forever. They had their problems, with the revolution, corruption, transition but now they are slowly getting up and it is perfectly normal that they want a say in almost all issues.

Personally, I think that EU should try to bring Russia closer instead of pushing it away. Pushing away the country that is the richest in resources in the world, when the world is on a brink of an energy crisis is a very bad move...

Pushing it away? That's a new one, thank you. :bow:

[Viking]

Personally, I think that EU should try to bring Russia closer instead of pushing it away. Pushing away the country that is the richest in resources in the world, when the world is on a brink of an energy crisis is a very bad move...

Bah, we should put money into science regarding fission of thorium as well as fusion reactors in order to drastically ease reliance upon others.

[Sigurd]

Bah, we should put money into science regarding fission of thorium as well as fusion reactors in order to drastically ease reliance upon others.
You are such a greedy man... :beam:

[Viking]

You are such a greedy man... :beam:

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that we should fission our beloved money. Rather I was pointing out the great need we have for this technology as thorium is plentyful in my backyard. :eyebrows:

[Husar]

Well, here it's a bad idea to build your house on a lot of coal, you will have to sell it to the coal mining company for the common good. You may say this is unfair etc. but when your whole region suddenly gets no power anymore and they say it's because this one guy refused to let them get coal from under his house, resulting in the whole mining having to stop...well...vigilantes? :laugh4:

Also reminds me of those western movies where stupid farmers try to stop the progress of technology by holding onto their cows instead of allowing a railway to be built through their land. :no:

[Sarmatian]

Bah, we should put money into science regarding fission of thorium as well as fusion reactors in order to drastically ease reliance upon others.

And in the meantime, you're going to stay warm by thinking happy thoughts?

[Vladimir]

And in the meantime, you're going to stay warm by thinking happy thoughts?

Vikings don't need heat but for 6 months out of the year.

[Viking]

And in the meantime, you're going to stay warm by thinking happy thoughts?


I'm not going to embrace a country that shows such disrespect for democracy. :inquisitive:


Vikings don't need heat but for 6 months out of the year.

We could need some global warming up here, Al Gore should be our prime enemy methinks.
That said, Norway got all the energy it needs. Even better, it'll still be renewable for the next two billion years or so. ~;)

[Rhyfelwyr]

I hate the EU because I have to study it.

Also I am less full of praise for democracy than everyone else seems to be. Bah maybe that is just me though, watching all this coverage of the US and its electoral activities (from the UK) is enough to make me sick. Not that the EU is democratic. Not that it should be either, you don't need democracy in what is fundamentally an international organisation.