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CountArach
02-28-2008, 11:26
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2175506.htm

When Fidel Castro resigned last week it was amusedly remarked in a number of newspapers that the CIA had tried to kill him 26 times.

Poisoned wet-suits, exploding cigars, a beautiful female spy who would inject him with cyanide while he post-coitally snored, were amiably, cheerfully listed as though assassination were an almost jocular, humorous, harmless thing that Fidel shouldn't be too upset by.

No newspaper said killing foreign leaders was against the law, and trying to kill Castro was a horrible thing; as horrible, say, as killing Che Guevara or Benazir Bhutto or Ramos Horta. And no published letter to the editor grumbled about this. And nobody I know said how strange this was.

But let us imagine that John F. Kennedy were still alive, and on his 90th birthday last year The Age jovially noted that he’d done pretty well to survive 26 attempts on his life by Cuban beauties with hypodermics, poisoned bottles of French champagne, poisoned condoms, exploding Cuban cigars and the like, all arranged by Fidel Castro's secret service.

If we'd read that we wouldn't be amused at all. We'd be wondering why America had not, in reprisal, invaded Cuba and overthrown the evil, murderous dictator Fidel Castro, put him in leg-irons in Guantanamo and after a military tribunal trial of this "enemy combatant" lethally injected him.

This contrasting scenario shows that even in our minds America, and America alone, is licensed to kill.

Their license to kill has been evident for some time.

The three million shot, bombed and Agent-Oranged Vietnamese are not much held against them, the 800,000 Cambodians, the 500,000 Iraqis – or was it only 300,000? – nor the 3,000 Chileans they helped "disappear", nor Salvador Allende whom they helped drive to suicide, nor Che Guevara whom their accomplices found in the jungle and tortured to death.

Americans are licensed to kill

It's a fact of life we have stoically, jokingly, shruggingly come to accept. They are our overlords and they have permission.

One of their private companies, Blackwater, can kill anyone, anywhere, any time; any innocent woman or child or old person in any country, just so long as they "follow the correct procedures", follow "the rules of engagement". Just so long as they say "Stop! Go back!" in English and fire a warning shot above the car-driving housewife they then, with her children, blow to pieces.

Americans are licensed to kill, and the six million or so, once you count in Korea, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Libya, Somalia, Lebanon, Serbia, Palestine, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Grenada, Haiti and Mexico they have assisted into oblivion, devastating their 50 million relatives, enraging their 16 million male cousins into thoughts of jihad and revolution, we should not compare, apparently, to the 100,000 Fidel Castro killed. Fidel Castro is a bad man. Fidel Castro deserves to die for those 100,000 killed over 50 years.

George Bush by contrast deserves to be forgiven for the 500,000 he killed – or was it only 300,000? – in five years because it was an honest mistake. He really thought there were weapons there, weapons buried in the sand, atomic bombs and things, so those 500,000 deaths and their 6 million devastated relatives are all right; those deaths are forgivable. He meant well.

Where does this attitude come from? Where does this belief come from? Why do we believe it?

Americans are licensed to torture too. They are only doing it, as the fine film Rendition shows, to save lives. So that makes torture all right, forgivable, justifiable, necessary even.

This attitude and this belief, which parallels al-Qaeda's (our cause is just and we must therefore, if need be, die for it, certainly mass-murder for it) and Ariel Sharon's and Mao Tse Tung's and Hirohito's and Pol Pot's and Hitler's, comes in part from Americans' disbelief in death, in the fact of death.

Most of them believe, about 78 per cent in the latest polls, because their churches teach them this is so, that death is only a small event in an ongoing life that lasts forever.

So if you kill someone, you're not inconveniencing him very much. If he's good, he'll go on to heaven. If he's bad, he'll get the eternal, screaming hellfire he deserves.

So if a helicopter gunship takes out a family of 21, grandmother, aunts, children, babies, and it turns out it was the wrong family, that's okay too. They're living somewhere else now, maybe in a good place. They should thank us.

Are Americans barbarians?

Oh yes. But don't tell them so. If you do they'll hunt you down to Bora Bora, and blow up the mountain you're in.

Their attitude to torture is different and derives, I think, from the 300 years they kept slaves, and the 80 more years they recalled the slave era fondly, weeping in Gone With The Wind for the good old days.

A slave you could rape, mutilate, whip, chain up, separate from his family, castrate if he looked at your wife the wrong way. You could impregnate his wife and sell your own subsequent bastard son for $20 because slaves were lesser beings, they were like working mules or bullocks, you could do anything you liked with them. You could whip them red raw. You could twist their genitals and watch them scream.

So it's not to hard, I think, for a culture with 300 years of slavery at its back, 300 years of unpaid labour that helped it to its present enormous wealth, to find Guantanamo acceptable, to find Abu Ghraib forgiveable, or water-boarding, or electrified testicles or sleep-deprivation by loud noise and bright unceasing lights, or snarling dogs, or dung-smeared Korans, or vile false news like Mamdouh Habib got, that his wife and children were dead.

For these, too, these heathen Arabs and Afghans, are lesser beings, dogs you can kick, mice you can experiment on, the way slaves were.

In becoming more like America, we should be careful not to become more like them in the matter of mass murder and torture.

Or perhaps you disagree.

And we should begin, if we can, to withdraw from them, by whatever international-legal means we can, and whatever pressure of international disapproval, by whatever editorials and articles and speeches in parliament we can write or utter, their license to kill.

Or perhaps you disagree.
An interesting opinion piece that I thought deserved to be shared. It does raise the interesting question of why America, in so many people's eyes, is considered to be the only country to whom International Law does not seem to apply.

So, discuss.

Mooks
02-28-2008, 11:50
Am I mistaken, or was it not only america that owned slaves?

:book:

I think people find the assasionation attempts on Castro funny becasue it reminds them of James Bond.

Conradus
02-28-2008, 11:56
Most other nations didn't fight over the right to hold slaves though.

Quirinus
02-28-2008, 12:36
Fascinating, actually. It doesn't neccesarily have to apply only to the US of A. Hypocrisy transcends cultures and borders.

Though I think the article lost a lot of steam when it tried to attack the Americans' slave-owning past. I mean, dude....... that was, like, what? One and a half centuries ago? Let's not forget that the US fought a war over that, and then emancipated the slaves. Social progress since the aforementioned Civil War has not been negligible.

Fragony
02-28-2008, 12:51
What a piece of crap.

Geoffrey S
02-28-2008, 12:56
What a piece of crap indeed.

Quirinus
02-28-2008, 13:05
Haha, not entirely crap.... I thought the first two parts of the article was pretty valid. It only fell apart in the third part.

Husar
02-28-2008, 13:24
It's entirely completely true, just look at our American orgahs, they're all smelling evil barbarians and if Tosa wasn't a dutch admin, we europeans would have to be cavity-searched before posting and be tortured instead of getting warning points etc. :clown:

Yes, the article had a point about Castro but I too see politics in a comicky way often because if you always see reality is as it is then you could be tempted to send yourself to heaven before the americans can even attempt it. But then life, when you ignore politics, can be quite nice. ~;)

Gregoshi
02-28-2008, 15:51
It does raise the interesting question of why America, in so many people's eyes, is considered to be the only country to whom International Law does not seem to apply.
It's not just International Law. Our own laws apply to everyone but "me". Speed limits, traffic signs/signals on the road are for the other guy - who has no clue how to drive...

InsaneApache
02-28-2008, 15:52
I'm going to tell my mom about this. :sweatdrop:

KukriKhan
02-28-2008, 15:53
Why do we believe it?

Bob Ellis never answers his own question (except to say America is boss of the world), instead spewing a jeremiad, speculating on why americans believe what they believe.

In Ellis-world, apparently, americans believe what their Puritan-era religions tell them to believe, in lock-step. The guys posting above have taken on the slave thingee.

Laughable. And a waste of bandwidth on abc.au's part.

Geoffrey S
02-28-2008, 16:03
Just as he accuses the US of believing it has a license to kill, he himself appears to believe he has a license to use high-handed rhetoric in harsh accusations of an entire nation and yet to view himself as a representative of the rest of the world.

Hypocrit? You betcha.

LittleGrizzly
02-28-2008, 16:12
It's not just International Law. Our own laws apply to everyone but "me". Speed limits, traffic signs/signals on the road are for the other guy - who has no clue how to drive...

I think this is a reason alot of people don't mind thier own countrys breaking international law, i mean castro was generally seen as a bad guy in USA so why would its citisens care if there were attempted murders on him.

I think the main point of the article is the inherent hypocriscy in USA foriegn policy, USA ignores (or eloquently avoids) international law when it stops them from doing something,but if they want to get something done then they are only to happy to use international law to beat the enemy over the head with.

International law should apply to everyone equally but as is the case as you take it down to a smaller scale, the rich and powerful can flout rules aslong as there isn't someone more powerful to enforce them.

Strike For The South
02-28-2008, 22:01
The civil war wasn't about slavery. No one cared about the slaves save a lunatic fring. Read up on yalls history:wall:

Marshal Murat
02-28-2008, 22:11
Before y'all throw yourselves into Wikipedia, I'll say this.

The Civil War was about state's rights in the context of the United States. Before the Civil War, there are a view that the United States took precedence over state rights. When South Carolina tried to adjust her tariffs to enhance her economic position, the Pennsylvanians slapped it down because it threatened their industries.
Many U.S. soldiers soldiers were fighting to preserve the United States as an entity, rather than abolish slavery. CSA soldiers were fighting to prevent an expansion of federal power. The North won, and the party in control (Republicans) were anti-slavery or moderate anti-slavery, and thus the Reconstruction.

I think it reveals the double standard in America, but it also reveals a key part of the American mind-set. We've read about our presidents being shot, killed, kidnapped, drugged, harassed, abused, and brainwashed in fiction for years. Now, we simply could care less.

CountArach
02-28-2008, 22:34
Haha, not entirely crap.... I thought the first two parts of the article was pretty valid. It only fell apart in the third part.
Yeah I won't deny that the ending was entirely BS.

I think the main point of the article is the inherent hypocriscy in USA foriegn policy, USA ignores (or eloquently avoids) international law when it stops them from doing something,but if they want to get something done then they are only to happy to use international law to beat the enemy over the head with.
Spot on.

Vladimir
02-29-2008, 03:34
It's because those people are ignorant (http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Shield-Mitrokhin-Archive-History/dp/0465003109/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204252400&sr=8-1).

CrossLOPER
02-29-2008, 04:50
It's because those people are ignorant (http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Shield-Mitrokhin-Archive-History/dp/0465003109/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204252400&sr=8-1).
Why the system no longer functions as it does.

KukriKhan
02-29-2008, 06:00
Yeah I won't deny that the ending was entirely BS.


I think the main point of the article is the inherent hypocriscy in USA foriegn policy, USA ignores (or eloquently avoids) international law when it stops them from doing something,but if they want to get something done then they are only to happy to use international law to beat the enemy over the head with.

Spot on.

Let me ask ya'll this*:

If "America: License to Kill" is a fact,

and hey, count me as the first Yank in line to say Li'lG's observation looks accurate to me too

who gives that 'license'? And who, then, can revoke that license, and why hasn't it been done?

The US is one of more than 193 nations on earth. 300 Million out of 7 Billion people.

I repeat Mister Ellis' question:


Why do we believe it?

What hobbles the rest of the world, or even just the western world... what prevents that world from stopping such a horrible evil's continuing to have its way?

Complacency? Fear of retribution?

I mean even the radical Islamic 'community' has found the wherewithall to mount a formidable opposition to america's alleged hegemony/disregard for cultural and (Islamic) legal sensitivities.

Anything else seems to this observer to fall flat as annoying but ineffectual sniping from the flanks. Self-important screeds of an impotently frustrated wanna-be powerbroker.

*I had a few beers before posting this, so apologize for any offense given. None was intended.

ajaxfetish
02-29-2008, 09:58
The part I find interesting in the slavery section is where he says "300 years of unpaid labour that helped it to its present enormous wealth." If my history classes were of any value, slavery did very little to move America towards its present enormous wealth, but was an outdated system superseded by the industrial power more prevalent in the north. If anything, slavery was holding the south back economically.

But the more important issue I have is this: why is it illegal by international law to assassinate a national leader if one feels what they are doing is unjust, yet it is legal to go to war with their nation and kill thousands of their citizens, including civilians and conscripted soldiers, in order to bring down that individual's unjust regime? Wouldn't it make more sense to directly attack those responsible for atrocities and the like than to indirectly attack them by killing innocents they control? If they're really such a bad guy, how much do you think they care about the average Joe soldier who is dying for them, especially if they have an escape plan for just before it all comes crashing down?

Ajax

CountArach
02-29-2008, 11:03
But the more important issue I have is this: why is it illegal by international law to assassinate a national leader if one feels what they are doing is unjust, yet it is legal to go to war with their nation and kill thousands of their citizens, including civilians and conscripted soldiers, in order to bring down that individual's unjust regime? Wouldn't it make more sense to directly attack those responsible for atrocities and the like than to indirectly attack them by killing innocents they control? If they're really such a bad guy, how much do you think they care about the average Joe soldier who is dying for them, especially if they have an escape plan for just before it all comes crashing down?

Ajax
Actually neither of those situations are legal. The second one is considered by the UN to be an unwarranted breach of a Nation's Sovereignty.

ajaxfetish
02-29-2008, 11:10
Actually neither of those situations are legal. The second one is considered by the UN to be an unwarranted breach of a Nation's Sovereignty.
I apologize for making the statement so generally. I assume there are situations where the UN would recognize invasion of another nation as justified. Is this incorrect? If so, and the reasons were caused by the actions of the nation's leader, is it more just to target that leader or their citizens?

Ajax

HoreTore
02-29-2008, 11:11
But the more important issue I have is this: why is it illegal by international law to assassinate a national leader if one feels what they are doing is unjust, yet it is legal to go to war with their nation and kill thousands of their citizens, including civilians and conscripted soldiers, in order to bring down that individual's unjust regime?

Because that's not legal either, perhaps?

EDIT: saw your last post; basically, there is no legal way to invade someone. The only wars permitted are defensive wars.

ajaxfetish
02-29-2008, 11:30
Because that's not legal either, perhaps?

EDIT: saw your last post; basically, there is no legal way to invade someone. The only wars permitted are defensive wars.
Well, that's interesting. What, I wonder, justifies placing national sovereignty as the highest international virtue? Does that mean that, for a situation like Darfur, economic sanctions are the biggest stick the international community can legally wave? Now I'm having trouble respecting the international law this whole thing's about in the first place.

Ajax

Fragony
02-29-2008, 11:32
Because that's not legal either, perhaps?

EDIT: saw your last post; basically, there is no legal way to invade someone. The only wars permitted are defensive wars.

That would mean allowing aggresive ones.

Tribesman
02-29-2008, 13:08
Does that mean that, for a situation like Darfur, economic sanctions are the biggest stick the international community can legally wave?
Well that situation doesn't really fit , Khartoum can reasonably claim that it is an internal domestic matter so international legality isn't appropriate or alternatively it can claim that it is the victim of a war of agression by Uganda Ethiopia and Chad and international legality should be on its side .

Quirinus
02-29-2008, 14:01
The civil war wasn't about slavery. No one cared about the slaves save a lunatic fring. Read up on yalls history:wall:

Social progress since the aforementioned Civil War has not been negligible.
I also said that. ~:)


What hobbles the rest of the world, or even just the western world... what prevents that world from stopping such a horrible evil's continuing to have its way?

Complacency? Fear of retribution?

I mean even the radical Islamic 'community' has found the wherewithall to mount a formidable opposition to america's alleged hegemony/disregard for cultural and (Islamic) legal sensitivities.
I believe it's because the USA is the only superpower on the planet. An alternative to thumbing your noses ineffectually is violence. Let's face it, American cultural and political hegemony is overwhelming.

Veho Nex
03-02-2008, 05:26
Most other nations didn't fight over the right to hold slaves though.

But thats cause other countries had no problems with it. But when you come to 'the land of the free':cheerleader: :elephant:

then you have issues...

But Rome, Egypt, Greece,... the list goes on and on all had slaves, not just blacks, but whites and yellows and greens if they existed...

Conradus
03-02-2008, 11:45
Are you actually comparing 19th century USA with Rome, Greece and Egypt from the 1st millenia (BC)?

Gregoshi
03-02-2008, 19:51
Are you actually comparing 19th century USA with Rome, Greece and Egypt from the 1st millenia (BC)?
What is a few thousand years between friends? ~:pat: