biggest tactical blunder---Cavalry

[Josephus Maximus Soter]

no matter what faction, no matter what type of cavalry unit, i cant use cavalry without my cavalry units dying and causing no major damage to any type of enemy unit, besides archers :-/. the cavalry units ar weaker than those of regular rtw. How do i use cavalry units? against which units are they most effective? i need help! i used to love cavalry until they got massacred by almost any infantry based unit. this may seem like a noob question but it would really help me out if i got some tactical advice. I know that cavalry have strong charges, but wen they charge they kill 2 or 3 units, and then get massacred. i try to pull them out of the massacre but it never works in my favor....:help:

[anubis88]

Try to charge at their backs or the side of a unit. You should also check that you charge your cavalry from not to close to the enemy, becouse if u do, the cavalry won't lower their spears, and you won't create any charge damage. And the charge damage is by far the largest.

Try playing a few costum battles with horses with large spears(hetairoi, podromoi,) so you can actually see when they lower their spears

[overweightninja]

It depends on the cavalry, some of the Eastern Catas can quite happily wade headfirst into heavy infantry units and come out victorious.
To use cavalry to their best (or at all with some of the weaker units) you need to make sure theyre in the right place. Here is what I do with 95% of armies/factions:
Depending on the faction/army, I deploy my cavalry units on either one or both flanks, behind the infantry but still at the sides.
Until the main battle lines are engaged, they are reserved solely for anti-cavalry/skirmisher tactics, so running down missile troops and returning or guarding the infantry from enemy flanking moves.
When the battle lines are more or less engaged, I move my cav forward around the side of the enemy, and as far behind it as I can. Line them up at the rear (or at a push the flank) of the enemy, let them settle down and read as "ready" (if you have time of course), and then just let them rip. If the enemy doesn't break straight away and/or you won't be able to break them quickly in a melee, withdraw, realign and charge again. Repeat until done.
Anyway to summarise: Use your infantry for long melees, use cavalry for guarding your line and flanking.
Hope that helps
Cheers

EDIT Pay attention to Anubis too, you're cavalry (or any unit for that matter) will perform much better if it can perform a "proper" charge. The distance should be taken account of as well as giving them enough time to reach "ready".

[anubis88]

EDIT Pay attention to Anubis too.

Wow, thanks.:whip:

[stupac]

Like the others said, I always stop shock calvary before making a charge. Either order them behind enemy lines and wait for them to get in position and stop (wait for triangle to disappear) or you can hit backspace to stop them, that will usually allow them to lower their spears. I think they mostly fixed this in M2TW, at least I've had better luck with it, though a few times my knights wouldn't level their lances.

[Maximus Aurelius]

Cavalry units are perhaps most useful if you are playing as one of the successor
states. The hammer and anvil tactic will destroy your enemy!:smash:

[alatar]

Indeed, a cavarly wing of say 4 units will rout most units if they hit the rear.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

The impact of your cavalry charges is also severely reduced if they are too tired. Fresh is better.

[s0meguy]

Forget it, EB has made cavalry totally useless, since pulling back and charging again is very impractical, it doesn't work in RTW. I do keep 1 or 2 cavalry units in my army because they're handy for killing routing units.

[Hax]

Oh yeah?

Well, cavalry was quite impractical to use as staying power in melee, if a cavalry unit lost their momentum, they could easily be in big trouble.

So I don't know what cavalry you are using (Hippakontistai) but the medium-heavy cavalry (Prodromoi - Hetairoi) will easily do the trick.

[Obelics]

Forget it, EB has made cavalry totally useless, since pulling back and charging again is very impractical, it doesn't work in RTW. I do keep 1 or 2 cavalry units in my army because they're handy for killing routing units.

well, i can devastate an engaged enemy even with roman camillian equites (that are not proper a great cavalry)... and this even inside town walls.. . so i cant understand what's your problem, cavalry useless in EB? mah that is the first time i hear this... If you can make Gaesatae to fly just with camillian Equites, just try to imagine what a powerfull hammers are the Pahlava Kataphract...

Dont forget to stop them, watch if they are in order, also assure a good distance from the target and then order the Charge. Always do that with the ALT+right click, this will allow to switch to secondary weapon, and if you have some good cavalry with armour piercing secondary weapon, you can see how much they can stand in melee...

[s0meguy]

Thing is, in EB the cavalry combat focuses on charging, running off, charging again, and makes just throwing them in there and letting them fight less useful. It could even work, if it werent for the fact that the unit stops charging the moment that the first member of the unit hits the enemy unit. So charging is broken I think.

[anubis88]

Thing is, in EB the cavalry combat focuses on charging, running off, charging again, and makes just throwing them in there and letting them fight less useful. It could even work, if it werent for the fact that the unit stops charging the moment that the first member of the unit hits the enemy unit. So charging is broken I think.
Well that never happened to me... are you sure they ran long enough?

[Obelics]

Thing is, in EB the cavalry combat focuses on charging, running off, charging again, and makes just throwing them in there and letting them fight less useful. It could even work, if it werent for the fact that the unit stops charging the moment that the first member of the unit hits the enemy unit. So charging is broken I think.

that's not true 100%, charge, if well done, can completely broke the enemy, so there is not need for a second one. If it not happens, sure the enemy will rout soon. The enemy must be engaged, wait they are getting tired by your infantry, and strike.

the cavalry dont stop to charge after the first man has hit the enemy, look at the enemy men when charged, you will see the number of men will decrease rapidly after the charge.

Again give a look to the unit cards in your EB folder, find a cavalry unit that has Armour Piersing as Secondary weapon, and look how much domnage it can do even in a prolonged melee.

[s0meguy]

Its a hardcoded RTW bug... Odd that you didn't notice it.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

do not charge the first unit but the unit behind it .. that way you can cause mass rout much faster ..
also .. do not use just 1 unit of cavalry but form them in to a wing .. like it has been said before .. attack with them enemys rear or weakest unit and soon the enemy will brake ~:)

[Tristuskhan]

I think the bug occurs when a soldier from the enemy unit gets far behind his formation during the fight. It's just like when you are chasing routers: your horses can keep whirling their lances in the air for long.

In a charge, even if the little bugger is immediately killed, momentum is lost when the horses hit the main enemy formation. And if the bugger holds, it's even worse.
But I seldom experience that kind of issue.

[Obelics]

bah, who knows, i think could be just a legend.
What i can say is that if i charge with good cavalry, i can see the enemy rapidly decreasy of 30, 40 men in a few second, and then they broke.

if you charge a not compacted enemy, then the charge will be a failure, also dont charge if you see there is some men of the enemy unit who is completely out of formation, and far from the rest of its unit, this can happen when you charge in the rear of phalanx, cause often happen that a pair of phalanxmen start to fight far away of their unit.

But if you see a well compacted target, engaged in the front and so pretty exposed in the rear, that's the moment to charge....

EDIT: Tristuskhan was faster than me to answer

[s0meguy]

uh you can just rout any unit by charging it with a cavalry unit? Apart from the fact that I tried the charge thing, ok maybe witht he wrong cav but it was totally ineffective anyway (also tried attacking them from the back when they were fighting my infantry, just flanking them with other infantry seems more effective to me, only its a bit slower but the enemy usually doesnt react if its in a fight and gets outflanked) , if it were possible, the EB team prolly wouldn't allow it as that would make the game too easy if you can just destroy a unit with 1 charge.

[Tristuskhan]

EDIT: Tristuskhan was faster than me to answer

As fast as the wind over the Wasteland:sweatdrop:

My advice, if you're fast enough with the mouse, is to keep a two-second delay between every charging cavalry unit. The cumulative effect of successive charges can break even Thorakitai Argyraspidai.

PS: as far as you play Pahlava!

[Obelics]

uh you can just rout any unit by charging it with a cavalry unit? Apart from the fact that I tried the charge thing, ok maybe witht he wrong cav but it was totally ineffective anyway, if it were possible, the EB team prolly wouldn't allow it as that would make the game too easy if you can just destroy a unit with 1 charge.

it's not that straight, you have:

(supposed you are playing with a non eastern faction)

1) keep your cavalry in the reserve and fresh
2) engage battle with infantry
3) wait, or manouvre your infantry to sourround some of the enemy if you like
4) now profit of the kaos to move your cavalry in the back of the front line.
5) find a weak spot in the enemy rear, usually an engaged and tired enemy.
6) align your cavalry to the right position
7) charge

Exception:

a)If enemy have some good cavalry you have to rout its cavalry first.
b)if the enemy have a great general (i.e. command stars), assure to kill him before to employ tha cavalry in the charge, cause the enemy army got a great moral bost with generals. If the general is engaged with your infantry it is easy to kill closing him with cavalry.

and not, i cant rout every enemy with cavalry, depend on the cavalry, on the terrain, on the enemy, on the battle etc. But i can assure if you do things well, cavalry is the decisive unit for your army.
Also keep the cavalry away from trees and bush. Also look in the Unit cards if it have great penalties in snow etc.

EDIT:

As fast as the wind over the Wasteland:sweatdrop:!
why every time some one quotes that infamous team, i feel like a trahitor, like Jude:embarassed: ...

[The Persian Cataphract]

Obviously we had to nerf down the dynamics of cavalry combat; In Vanilla, you could use cataphracts for any role, with the notable exceptions elephantry and horse-archers. I could use cataphracts almost senselessly, even against the front of pikemen. It's insane. We obviously can't have that.

Of course, we do realize that our horsemen are slighty... Well, I don't want to say weak, but they lack the factor of disruption (Which is a matter of mass, not attack or lethality, or even armour for that matter). All I can say is that we are working on some sort of stat-tweaking, but otherwise, we are quite satisfied with our cavalry. You must know when to use horsemen and of which discipline and class they must be of. You do not choose Romans, Germanics or the Celtic factions (Including Getai, though they have more tactical flexibility) for equestrian prowess; For this, you must at least look at the Iberians, Macedonia or Carthaginians, or Ptolemaic Egypt. If you want to use horsemen more predominantly, Pontus and the Seleucids have a very respectable roster of horsemen. The Sarmatians takes all of that another notch. Finally, you have what I'd like to call "The Fantastic Four"; Bactria, Armenia, Saka and the Parthians. If you want almost impervious horsemen who are willing to take you even to Oz, and by that maul even the toughest infantry, those are the factions you ought to look at.

I am sorry, but not once have I ever had any problems with a unit such as the Grivpanvar, or the Hetairoi Kataphraktoi. Of course, you must expect some casualty; This isn't Vanilla where you could use golden chevron horsemen and rip through any infantry with zero losses. Against light infantry, you will perhaps at most lose five men from such high elite regiments, used correctly. It stings the perfectionist gamer within me; The historian within me shouts out of delight. Cavalry is supposed to be decisive force, ready for deployment when the time is ready, not to be squandered away as grunts to win the battles for you. You leave this either to a solid infantry core, or horse-archers.

[The_Mark]

Well said.

And, in case anyone hasn't mentioned it, do not use the wedge formation for cavalry (unless you're rolling on BI), as it really doesn't work well. You can use it to, well, wedge between two units, but don't charge with it; IIRC wedge is what causes the charge to stop when the tip cavalryman contacts with the enemy.

[Lovejoy]

I find the cav well balanced in EB. If used correctly they are devestating. I dont know what bug S0meguy is talking about, but the charges work great. If not... your not good enough!

I believe the EB-team balanced the cav with this "bug" in-mind, so they made the charge extra strong. I remember ppl at the RTR-forums talking about it, but I thought this "bug" was fixed in the 1.5 engine?

Anyway:

Cav is great, they are battle winners, but it takes some practice. I never go anywhere without some good cav in my back.

EDIT:
The Persian Cataphract: Well spoken!

[Sdragon]

I find cavalry feel just right. Devastating charges and reasonable melee for the heavies and mediums. Every type fits its roll. Only types I'm not happy with are the uber general bodyguards of death. The later ones of Bactria and Parthia chew through elites from the front. These factions don't base their army off how good its men are, its how many family members they have. Just out of curiosity what modding would I need to do to reduce the number of men in generals units?

[konny]

The secret behind successfull cavalry combat is timing:

- Do not charge againts fresh and eager units. Even swordfighter or skirmirshers will cut down your shining horsemen when they don't have anything better to do; spearmen in this situation won't even notice that there was also cavalry present in the general melee.

- Wait until the enemy is shaken and tired. The losses by the charge (preferable from a dircetion different from the front) will usualy break the enemy unit on the spot. Even worse: the moment they start routing your cavalry is allready amongst them, and by this a unit of Hippeis or Eqvites can shredder a unit of Spartiates by the loss of not more than three or four horsemen.

[Watchman]

I've gotten perfectly good flank-charge mileage out of the rather humble Celtic light horse. Heck, in my experience even something as patently cruddy as Hippakontistai can do reasonably well when you don't have anything better at hand...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I am a total maniac on cavalry. I do never use less than 25% of my unit slots for cavalry. I recently even tried to force me to use less because I felt a certain lack of infantry... cavalry is absolutely gorgeous, perfect, valuable and I hate it when they take losses. And I hate myself when they take losses because normally losses occur when the enemy has routed but regrouped some several hundred yards away from the main infantry body, and I am normally much too lazy to move on again with my tired infantry because it would take ages doing so. So I use my cavalry let them lose some 10 - 20%. It's a shame I know.~:0 ~:( :shrug:


Good cavalry use:

https://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1806/chaaaaaargeca202vchrdw3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Tellos Athenaios]

Cavalry is, IMO, one of the easiest 'class' of units to understand and use well. All types have pretty straightforward dynamics, and the strengths and weaknesses are known beforehand. Hardly any surprise; and hardly and surprise and experience calvalry commander can use all-cavalry armies to actually win devastating victories. Under nearly all circumstances (the notable exceptions being sallying...)

One of my favourite units has become the Hippakontistai. People always complain about them to worth absolutely jack; but I find they fit the bill just perfectly and give a far better account of themselves you'd reasonably expect from the price and (visible) stats...

[overweightninja]

Centurio, what a lovely illustration of the point :2thumbsup:

[Disciple of Tacitus]

@ Josephus Maximus Soter. Everyone here has offered some good advise. Cull it for useful info and put it to use. We all want you to become a cav fan. It does - however - take some practice and a little getting use to. I was a huge cav-fan from previous versions. I agree that the cav is perhaps not as powerful as before, but now it is more realistic - which is a credit to the EB team.
With a bit of practice, you will find a cav unit that "fits" you. the Watchman has put the Celtic light horse to good use. Tellos enjoys the Hippakontistai (@ Tellos - kudos to you, sir.) I have become a fan of the Campaian (sp) cavalry. Apply what you have learnt here and give it some time.

[pezhetairoi]

I am a fan of the Brihentin, myself. I always train them if I'm a faction that can, and always keep 4 units as my cavalry wing in my fullstacks, even as far away as Asia Minor where the logistics of transferring reinforcements is a b*tch. Not overheavy, but fast even in comparison to light cavalry, and good in melee.

Cavalry, as everyone has already said before, is a brilliant thing. I once routed a Makedonian fullstack of pikes, Galatians and pheraspidai with four units of inexperienced Equites Extraordinarii when they made a huge blunder of coming onto the battlefield piecemeal. The mass rout worked brilliantly in my favour. And never once did my cavalry ever end up charging headlong into pikes. I won completely with flank and rear actions, withdrawing just before the pikes came down. And I also killed 3 family members including the leader into the bargain. Even if my units did start at 100 and end with 20+ to 30 men, that is still, i daresay, a pretty darn good achievement.

It's not about how weak they are, it's how good your control of them is. Mobility is seriously a HUGE asset to have, and using it well will completely nonpluss your AI enemy, and even some of your less energetic MP opponents too.

Cavalry is all about affecting morale. The impact they have upon charging is really only secondary. If the enemy comes on as a whole, simply engage one flank, then overwhelm it from the rear with outflanking cavalry, then roll it up. The piecemeal effect wins here. If the enemy is disjointed, well, you have already read my story above. If you rout the first units right, you can even rout enemy units just by charging at them, not making contact.

So please, use cavalry. They are not the main impulse of the battle; these are not the French chivalry at Crecy. They are the finishing blow.

[Watchman]

Heck, the last time I tried a KH campaign I very swiftly realized I suddenly really, really yearned after something, anything on horseback. Even Hippakontistai and Hippies for starters. Trying to dance around the Mac pikes with just hoplites - not exactly the fastest infantry around - was that big a pain.

[pezhetairoi]

Heck, with KH that's a given.

But even in that context, hoping for hippakontistai is...well, don't price yourself out of the market ^_^ Hippakontistai are really quite pathetic unless you -really- manage to keep them out of -all- melee, cavalry, and missile engagements, in a sterilised environment where they can hurl their akons or whatever it is without getting anything hurled back or charging back at them... That's just IMHO, of course.

As Makedones I quickly realised that they weren't worth having, and I just blitzed Greece while desperately building my Hippeis Thessalikoi barracks. Best medium cavalry around, the Thessalikoi. Lonchophoroi come a close second.

[Watchman]

Oh yes, they're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of EB horsemen all right. :laugh4: The point was more that even they are better than no truly mobile troops at all.

[NEver]

Charge, retreat, charge again. Very effective. If you can pincer them and have two cavalry charging the flanks and then running thorugh eachother and alternating between flanks you can pwn.

[konny]

Oh yes, they're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of EB horsemen all right. :laugh4: The point was more that even they are better than no truly mobile troops at all.

Yes, that is a serious problem when playing one of the factions with footguards. Of course, Hippakontistai are not meant for fighting, they are there to cut down routers and catch and hold running skirmishers until the real soldiers appear on the scene.

It is even worse with the Sweboz: your only cavalry is prohibitive expensive and requires a level 4 barracks - not that it is worth the price. Anyways, it takes a long time before you'll see the first in your Germanic armies, what allows to improve your technics in battue when you have to catch light cavalry with heavy infantry.

[pezhetairoi]

But the Germanic infantry run devilishly fast, I'll grant you that.

And are you talking about the Ridanz, or the Marhathegnoz?

[konny]

And are you talking about the Ridanz, or the Marhathegnoz?

Ridnaz. Average light cavalry for the prize of Numidian Nobles, Campanians and the like.

Marhathegnoz would be Brihentin for the price of Hetairoi, available some turns after the AI has reached the Marian reforms.

[pezhetairoi]

True. Make do, I guess. Sweboz are rather poorly armoured, and even their Herthaganautoz are just Neitos with a smaller unit size. Poor in that respect. But compare the high attack power of their warbands! But yes, they'd die against a civilised foe, though the Dugunthiz under my control as the Arverni did put in some sterling service.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

I cringe at the thought of playing a cav-weak faction. But have found Rome great fun, so I guess that statement is qualified. I must admit that I have to be truly inspired to play a cav-weak faction. Having not looked at the KH roster, I am guessing from your statements, Pez and Konny, that I would be cringing - alot - if I picked them for my next faction?

[pezhetairoi]

No, you wouldn't cringe. They do have Lonchophoroi, which are good enough for most purposes and have AP, and are rather widely available. Xystophoroi, their best, admittedly are only equal to the Hippeis Thessalikoi, but hey, the Thessalikoi are pretty good as it goes. So you wouldn't cringe. Anybody who can survive on Equites Romani and Extraordinarii (who actually aren't that shabby) can survive on Lonchophoroi.

[General Appo]

Stupidest thing I´ve ever done was attacking Sauromatae as Sweboz. Thier HA´s are impossible to catch, and even when out of arrows they still have the skirmish mode on, so just avoid my troops until the timer runs out or I tire and quit. Even the little cavalry I managed to scratch up couldn´t catch them, and when they did they got ganged up by HA´s and insta-routed before the infantry could catch up. I only managed to take out those bastards after ignoring all thier armies and just going for the towns. Even HA´s are forced to melee when your holding their town square. That was kinda cheating though, as the nomads didn´t really care if you burnt their towns, at least not enough to give up.

[The Wandering Scholar]

IMO your infantry should out number theirs so you can envelop their infantry, upgrade your missile units as often as possible so you can dispose of theirs quickly and now we get to cav.. high quality cav is very important, it should be able to neutralise the threat of theirs then by this time your missiles have significantly weakened theirs, mop up their missile then aid your infantry who have got their infantry surrounded.. :beam:

[konny]

I cringe at the thought of playing a cav-weak faction. But have found Rome great fun, so I guess that statement is qualified. I must admit that I have to be truly inspired to play a cav-weak faction. Having not looked at the KH roster, I am guessing from your statements, Pez and Konny, that I would be cringing - alot - if I picked them for my next faction?

KH can recruite basically the same cavalry than any other Hellenic faction inculding Prodomoi, Thessalians and the like. The difference is with the bodyguards: You do not have elite cavalry but elite infantry for free with your FMs. That is a serious advantage in the early game when armies are small and militia is the rule, but becomes problematic in the later game when your enemies are able to raise elite infantry themselves while you have to pay for the (more expensive) elite cavalry.

With the Sweboz it's quite easy: The bodyguards are the backbone of your army, what is all infantry. Recruiting your factional cavalry is pointless, so you'll have to conquer Celtic settlements to get Leuce Epos (or hire mercs). Usually you are to poor to recruite elites, so you will be happy to have your elite foot-guards for free - what requires you to draft your governors from your settlements, what in return enforces the economic problem. Playing the Sweboz is in fact different to any "civilized" or even other "barbarian" factions.