Just Another Complainer Doing His Duty

being new to the eb experience, i had a hard time playing this mod recently as smaller factions (getai, epirus, macedonia, greeks). so recently i attempted a carthaginian campaign on easy/medium. all was going well, financially and militarily until shortly after the siege of capua. after taking it, i found i could not keep public order in check. it was virtually stuck at 40% with a full army in it, decent governor, and low tax rate. now capua is a large city (10k) with plenty of public order buildings, but the unrest is insane. after rioting threatens to destroy my army bit by bit, i move most of my stack out of the city. sure enough the city revolts back to back roman rule and spawns 12 units inside it :wall: wtf???

so what choice do i have, let a city destroy my army until it decides to calm down or maybe i should just exterminate all major cities i conquer? these choices are retarded. meanwhile the ai factions receive so much "under the table" money, they can afford to lose all their major cities and lose every battle but still be healthy enough to keep recruiting huge armies to do endless battle with me that will slowly but surely wear me down.

like i said, this is a big bitch fest. but is there seriously anyone else out there that sees the unrealistic manner in which the campaign is portrayed? because there is a lack of intelligence and tactical skill on the part of the ai, the challenge factor should not be replaced with money bonuses, morale bonuses, and spontaneous spawning of large numbers of units.

while we are on the topic of spontaneous spawning. about the same time as the revolt of capua, an eleutheroi army spawned in southern italy. and there wasn't even any eleutheroi city there anymore. these armies should at least appear in or near eleutheroi cities.

also, units available and requirements need to be viewable in game. at this point, its virtually a guessing game whether i can recruit a certain unit under a certain government with a certain level of barracks. i've wasted so much money building several levels of barracks for foreign natives or factional barracks all to find out nothing or next to nothing is recruitable with that government. or even to find out there isn't even any suitable recruits in that region period. i've seen the recruitment viewer and its pretty good, but a lot more helpful for people with two computers in the same room.

now for all those who are about to post just to hate on me, don't even bother. i'm only interested in seeing how to deal with the city revolt issue and what everyone thinks about the ai and the bonuses they receive.

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Originally Posted by Danzifuge

being new to the eb experience, i had a hard time playing this mod recently as smaller factions (getai, epirus, macedonia, greeks). so recently i attempted a carthaginian campaign on easy/medium. all was going well, financially and militarily until shortly after the siege of capua. after taking it, i found i could not keep public order in check. it was virtually stuck at 40% with a full army in it, decent governor, and low tax rate. now capua is a large city (10k) with plenty of public order buildings, but the unrest is insane. after rioting threatens to destroy my army bit by bit, i move most of my stack out of the city. sure enough the city revolts back to back roman rule and spawns 12 units inside it :wall: wtf???

so what choice do i have, let a city destroy my army until it decides to calm down or maybe i should just exterminate all major cities i conquer? these choices are retarded. meanwhile the ai factions receive so much "under the table" money, they can afford to lose all their major cities and lose every battle but still be healthy enough to keep recruiting huge armies to do endless battle with me that will slowly but surely wear me down.

while we are on the topic of spontaneous spawning. about the same time as the revolt of capua, an eleutheroi army spawned in southern italy. and there wasn't even any eleutheroi city there anymore. these armies should at least appear in or near eleutheroi cities.

also, units available and requirements need to be viewable in game. at this point, its virtually a guessing game whether i can recruit a certain unit under a certain government with a certain level of barracks. i've wasted so much money building several levels of barracks for foreign natives or factional barracks all to find out nothing or next to nothing is recruitable with that government. or even to find out there isn't even any suitable recruits in that region period. i've seen the recruitment viewer and its pretty good, but a lot more helpful for people with two computers in the same room.

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in reverse order:
- yes, the recruitment viewer is helpful, but as you say, there is no way of knowing once you're in game - experience being the best guide. i recommend keeping an eye on what governments you install in any given province, as they affect which units you can recruit most swiftly.

- eleutheroi armies can spawn anyway, especially if a faction owned province is large - they represent an army of brigands/rebels sometimes, so not necessarily a "free people" army like satres' up in the alps or so.

- public order is sometimes adversely affected by the number of troops in a city. you must remember as well (and here i'm a little shaky as to whether this has an effect) that you are carthies conquering roman cities, so that should have a negative impact on public order. I recommend either destroying some of things in the city that make it "roman" or trying out installing a client ruler - giving back the city supposed independence.

my two pennies.

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- yes, the recruitment viewer is helpful, but as you say, there is no way of knowing once you're in game

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Alt + Tab is your friend. It will minimize your RTW and let you use RV.
It can take some time (or only few seconds ) to minimize and bring RTW back (depending on how much RAM you have and if you use "-ne" RTW command line switch ).
So if you plan to attack province X,Y,Z its best to minimize, check out your choices in RV and make your mind so you only have to do it once.

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Originally Posted by LorDBulA

Alt + Tab is your friend. It will minimize your RTW and let you use RV.
It can take some time (or only few seconds ) to minimize and bring RTW back (depending on how much RAM you have and if you use "-ne" RTW command line switch ).
So if you plan to attack province X,Y,Z its best to minimize, check out your choices in RV and make your mind so you only have to do it once.

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i was aware of this, but for me, might kill the game, so fragile is it when running (my puter is a strange beast), but yeah....you're exactly right, it's possible to have it open behind the game.

Kill all the women´s and rape all the mens.















































Sorry kill all the mens and rape the womans. :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

Take women,
Kill city,
Rape men
... no that's not quite right

ahem
Take city,
Kill men,
Rape women,

that's it.


https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/...0318848rd0.jpg

Me I'm a bit of a planner, so when it comes to recruitment for a faction I have planned most of it out before I even start a campaign using the RV. With all the provinces, governments, and barrack levels, written down on a note pad in advance.

Durring a long campaign, I take a good look at the map before save and quitting for the night, and make sure to check out the RV, before I fire up the next day. Easy, but I used to waste alot of time and money before making this simple effort.

As for city revolts, as the Romans I took the first 2 Karthastan...? cities on the left side of N/Africa, both were completely in the red @ 0% happiness after being exterimated, both had full stacks with decent governers. So I pulled out after destroying most buildings I didn't need, thinking I will have to retake if they rebel. I destroyed the old govements and built the client ones (the IVth types).

After the 1st turn there was a minor revolt, but by the second turn when the Client ruler appeared unrest was stable @ 75%. So a dodgy situation can be bought around quickly, oh and I always chuck a spy in to help out.

If you do not enjoy the challenge that EB poses, I suggest you try any of the myriad other mods out there. As for rebellions, just destroy foreign barracks upon taking cities and the spawned force will be easy to cope with.

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Originally Posted by Danzifuge

being new to the eb experience, i had a hard time playing this mod recently as smaller factions (getai, epirus, macedonia, greeks). so recently i attempted a carthaginian campaign on easy/medium. all was going well, financially and militarily until shortly after the siege of capua. after taking it, i found i could not keep public order in check. it was virtually stuck at 40% with a full army in it, decent governor, and low tax rate. now capua is a large city (10k) with plenty of public order buildings, but the unrest is insane. after rioting threatens to destroy my army bit by bit, i move most of my stack out of the city. sure enough the city revolts back to back roman rule and spawns 12 units inside it :wall: wtf???

so what choice do i have, let a city destroy my army until it decides to calm down or maybe i should just exterminate all major cities i conquer? these choices are retarded. meanwhile the ai factions receive so much "under the table" money, they can afford to lose all their major cities and lose every battle but still be healthy enough to keep recruiting huge armies to do endless battle with me that will slowly but surely wear me down.

like i said, this is a big bitch fest. but is there seriously anyone else out there that sees the unrealistic manner in which the campaign is portrayed? because there is a lack of intelligence and tactical skill on the part of the ai, the challenge factor should not be replaced with money bonuses, morale bonuses, and spontaneous spawning of large numbers of units.

while we are on the topic of spontaneous spawning. about the same time as the revolt of capua, an eleutheroi army spawned in southern italy. and there wasn't even any eleutheroi city there anymore. these armies should at least appear in or near eleutheroi cities.

also, units available and requirements need to be viewable in game. at this point, its virtually a guessing game whether i can recruit a certain unit under a certain government with a certain level of barracks. i've wasted so much money building several levels of barracks for foreign natives or factional barracks all to find out nothing or next to nothing is recruitable with that government. or even to find out there isn't even any suitable recruits in that region period. i've seen the recruitment viewer and its pretty good, but a lot more helpful for people with two computers in the same room.

now for all those who are about to post just to hate on me, don't even bother. i'm only interested in seeing how to deal with the city revolt issue and what everyone thinks about the ai and the bonuses they receive.

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:beam: 1st Welcome to EB!

Now... lets get down to the needy greety :yes:

1- Yes Getai, Aedui/Arverni, Saka, etc all small fations have tought time. This is were u brain will start to kick in, as u have to become resourceful and use ur troops and inital little $$ effectively. Remember this is NOT RTW, it is much more challenging but with a few turns of playing and thinking :book: you will be able to beat the AI. Trust me, I pulled of a succesful KH VH/VH fatige off campain, and some other guy pulled off a complete campain at VH/VH with Saka.
--my sugestions, tighten your belt, think , then fight :boxing: . IF u get beat bad, or have difficulties ask questions we will help u out with strategic and tactical knowledge.

2- As u already know, the AI gets $$ not just because of battlefiled incompetence but because of its managerial incompetence as well. IF the AI is to be subject to the same playing condidtions the human player is, most factions will never grow.

3- Like Bovi said, destroy the enemy MIC so when it rebels is just a few troops.

4- Yes unrest is a B**ch! However in your case it is due to several issues.
--a- Large population and many Roman buildings (ex: governors house)
--b- Roman spies inside of the city.
--c- Squalor is hardcoded.
--e- That city IS NOT of ur culture, so ur taking a small penalty (due to the roman buildings, once u make the city a Cathagenian town the revolt will be done with).
----My sugestion like everyone else is to put that city to the sword. Hannibal would have. :yes: And make a garrison of cheap many cheap units like Akontistae (sp) and Roarii.
------BTW the AI is subject to the SAME revolting issue as u are so... u can't really complain there. :whip:

5- Recruitment viewer is AWESOME. However due to the large complexity of the game it is hard to know what ur gonna get and what u won't get in a regional MIC. My suggestions are:
--Review the Recruitment areas aroung ur Carthege and ur areas of conquest before the start of the game.:book:
--Ask people here. :help: !!
--Play and expireince will teach you. It did to me, it did to all of us. (even to the modders themselves, its a huge game man, a lot of historical details)

6-On my opinion the bonuses are fine, the AI is really dumb. Trust me, give it a few turns and you will get the hang of it. The only Issue is Diplomacy and thats hardcoded. However the Diplomacy mod helps.

my2cents

.......any additional questions

For one province factions, attack! You need provinces to make money. Also queue your army and roads/farms at the start of the game.

A fine way to check out in-game what a province can and cannot recruit: quicksave, add_money, process_cq (city name), rinse and repeat, quickload once done.

So I am the "someone" mentioned by NeoSpartan as having completed VH/VH with Saka Rauka. Here's my :2cents: to give you.

First thing first. EB is a HUGE jump in difficulty from RTW. If you can't adjust to the leap then try something else first for a while like RTR.

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Originally Posted by Danzifuge

being new to the eb experience, i had a hard time playing this mod recently as smaller factions (getai, epirus, macedonia, greeks). so recently i attempted a carthaginian campaign on easy/medium. all was going well, financially and militarily until shortly after the siege of capua. after taking it, i found i could not keep public order in check. it was virtually stuck at 40% with a full army in it, decent governor, and low tax rate. now capua is a large city (10k) with plenty of public order buildings, but the unrest is insane. after rioting threatens to destroy my army bit by bit, i move most of my stack out of the city. sure enough the city revolts back to back roman rule and spawns 12 units inside it :wall: wtf???

so what choice do i have, let a city destroy my army until it decides to calm down or maybe i should just exterminate all major cities i conquer? these choices are retarded. meanwhile the ai factions receive so much "under the table" money, they can afford to lose all their major cities and lose every battle but still be healthy enough to keep recruiting huge armies to do endless battle with me that will slowly but surely wear me down.

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Unfortunately by my experience, any AI province over 6k population not of your culture need to be exterminated, which basically means every one not of your culture. Besides it's good money.

And if the AI don't get "under the table" money, the campaign would be WAY too easy. When I put a spy in an AI city, I have very seldom see its income in the positive.

Like always: You have brains, the AI has money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danzifuge

like i said, this is a big bitch fest. but is there seriously anyone else out there that sees the unrealistic manner in which the campaign is portrayed? because there is a lack of intelligence and tactical skill on the part of the ai, the challenge factor should not be replaced with money bonuses, morale bonuses, and spontaneous spawning of large numbers of units.

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Unfortunately this is the best way to make the game difficult due to AI stupidity. Yes the campaign is not accurate, but show me one that is. Remember, the AI is hardcoded.

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Originally Posted by Danzifuge

while we are on the topic of spontaneous spawning. about the same time as the revolt of capua, an eleutheroi army spawned in southern italy. and there wasn't even any eleutheroi city there anymore. these armies should at least appear in or near eleutheroi cities.

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I don't remember the spawning rebels in RTW Vanilla following this rule.

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Originally Posted by Danzifuge

also, units available and requirements need to be viewable in game. at this point, its virtually a guessing game whether i can recruit a certain unit under a certain government with a certain level of barracks. i've wasted so much money building several levels of barracks for foreign natives or factional barracks all to find out nothing or next to nothing is recruitable with that government. or even to find out there isn't even any suitable recruits in that region period. i've seen the recruitment viewer and its pretty good, but a lot more helpful for people with two computers in the same room..

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Call up the building description. If it doesn't list any units, that building won't give you any unit. Maybe a higher one will. But remember, the closer you are to your homeland the more troops of your faction you can build with normal barracks, while the further away the more regional troops. So the closer you are to home the more you should focus on your own factional barrack and the further away the more regional. Remember to match government type.

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Originally Posted by Danzifuge

now for all those who are about to post just to hate on me, don't even bother. i'm only interested in seeing how to deal with the city revolt issue and what everyone thinks about the ai and the bonuses they receive.

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1) Exterminate 2) Destroy all needless buildings 3) Build up your own public order buildings 4) Low taxes 5) Recruit garrison skirmishers as needed

And the AI is hardcoded. I think its retarded but nothing the EB team can do about that.
The bonuses are good because it make the game hard. I for one like a challenge and that's why I played Saka Rauka VH/VH as my FIRST faction of EB 1.0 (Since I plowed through RTW: Vanilla as REBELS and also found Numidia too easy). The challenge has been fun.

Remember you need to focus on money buildings when you can, beat the AI with minimum casualties, don't waste money building needless buildings and troops (unless you have a huge empire and lots of cash to waste) specialize settlements, wait patiently to save up money for important buildings like mines, look for strategic provinces and locations, and NOT to expand too fast.

At least it's still a game and not a nightmare like doing it in real life.

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Originally Posted by Parallel Pain

..........

1) Exterminate 2) Destroy all needless buildings 3) Build up your own public order buildings 4) Low taxes 5) Recruit garrison skirmishers as needed

.......
Remember you need to focus on money buildings when you can, beat the AI with minimum casualties, don't waste money building needless buildings and troops (unless you have a huge empire and lots of cash to waste) specialize settlements, wait patiently to save up money for important buildings like mines, look for strategic provinces and locations, and NOT to expand too fast.

.....

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X2 :book:

In EB, large cities not of your culture should always be enslaved or exterminated. The people hate you because your culture is different from theirs, bribing them with low taxes isn't going to be as effective.

If you want an historical 'explanation' for this, then for Carthage taking Capua, for instance, the Carthagians must hunt down and enslave or kill not only all the Romans in the city (who won't be loyal) but all local Italian inhabitants with Roman sympathies (a very large section of the population since Capua has been under Roman control for a very long time.

If you have problems with unrest, don't be surprised by Elutheroi armies springing up in the affected province. It's called rebellion!

And if a city actually successfully revolts out of your rule back to its former faction, the people are going to be feeling very patriotic indeed, so lots of volunteers for the army including retired veterans. That explains the large stacks of troops that appear in such cities.

I try to bring a stack (+ attrition spares!) of cheap & numerous militia/skirmishers & a good manager family member to substitute into an unhappy city like that.
Thats in addition to destroying enemy structures, putting tax on low & throwing a good spy or two in.

Often due to time/money/population constraints, this isn't possible but its definitely worthwhile keeping the garrison full of high numbers of guys & swapping out those experienced/expensive units for cheap ones.

I'm pretty sure that infiltrating an enemy city before attacking is supposed to help a city to not hate you so much after you take it but haven't really tested this.
Along similar lines, having spies in there after taking it may help speed up the citizens accepting your rule.
They at least can hunt out any enemy spies that may be resident.

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Originally Posted by Poulp'

Take women,
Kill city,
Rape men
... no that's not quite right

ahem
Take city,
Kill men,
Rape women,

that's it.


https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/...0318848rd0.jpg

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This is true my fine sir.

Well, beware the culture penalty from having different culture building in conquered cities.
If the game si still too hard, you may edit some buildings, so the further reduce population growth (which prevents future problems) while increasing public order (law or happiness, it is up to you).

its basically my own fault, the city reverting back to the romans. i had left the city mostly ungarrisoned due the unpleasant killing of my troops every turn. 100 soldiers a turn is a big drain.

thanks for all the advice, everyone. i had no idea there was a culture penalty for buildings. and to think i was actually repairing the governors villa. so i'm assuming i need to destroy the current govt and build my own, right?

Assume???????

How dare u leave the Roman governor and all his inmoral burocrats in charge of that city?!!!! :furious3:

U need to make that a Proper Carthagenian city! if u don't... the Gauls will :whip:

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Originally Posted by NeoSpartan

Assume???????

How dare u leave the Roman governor and all his inmoral burocrats in charge of that city?!!!! :furious3:

U need to make that a Proper Carthagenian city! if u don't... the Gauls will :whip:

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so... regional govt is bad? also, my governors are becoming horrible womanizers. every other turn it adds 5% to unrest. can i counter this? btw rome conquered 263 bc.

also, not seeing a cultural penalty difference when i destroy roman buildings. it seems to be set at 50% all the time.

The most notorious buildings are governors' buildings and temples. A few other buildings (such as markets) also add 5% to unrest.

In case of temples, the best thing you can do is to build them up if it has a large law (+happiness, but law is a bit better as it reduces corruption) bonus. Else you may more or less be forced to wait until you have the chance to tear it down, and replace it with a more suitable temple.

In general, the temple gives more boni than penalties, so beware.

stuck at rome. i've killed 20k roman soldiers. but sure enough after every battle they build another 20 unit stack. i'm sick of these money bonuses and i'm gonna just have to delete the whole section in the script. i don't give a shit if it makes em a bunch of pussies. the feasibility that an army that size could be raised in one turn on a consistent basis when they're left with three subpar cities and blockaded ports is bullshit. hannibal never held any cities and just ravaged the countryside so rome still had a fighting chance to recruit.

i swear to god every battle is evenly matched with about 3k soldiers on each side. i kill about 5/6 of their men while only taking 1/6 casualties on average. then the very next turn what do i see? another full stack that wasn't there before. this is fuckin nuts :furious3:

What year is it?

I'm sure they're just bringing up reinforcements from other fronts (as happens when I fought the Ptolemy and Seleucids)

After all even if they have all the money in the world one settlement can only make one unit per term. If they don't have 20 settlement they can't make 20 units a term. Even if they do they can't gather them all together to form an army the very next term.

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Originally Posted by Parallel Pain

What year is it?

I'm sure they're just bringing up reinforcements from other fronts (as happens when I fought the Ptolemy and Seleucids)

After all even if they have all the money in the world one settlement can only make one unit per term. If they don't have 20 settlement they can't make 20 units a term. Even if they do they can't gather them all together to form an army the very next term.

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263 b.c. its a single front, unless they enjoy scouting (but not attacking) gaul with several 20 stack armies. they have only three cities (ariminium, etrurian city, and mediolanum) i cant convince the averni to attack them, even though they were previously at war with them.

you're right, now that i think about it. they can't build more than three units, but to think they seriously should be able to afford that many reinforcements prior and during my invasion is insane. and the fact they didnt send but one of these armies at me at one time is just plain stupid.

Maybe they are getting mercenaries? In that case this source of troops should dry out pretty quickly with this recruitment rate.

I have a similar problem in my Hai campaign. The Ptollies love attacking me, so I took Alexandreia (and the Levant). It did not stop them from attacking me, turn after turn. So I took Paraiton and Memphis. Now it is only once every 2 turns.

Half of the time the armies were merc-based. And they were coming from every direction, but upon closer inspection, they simply abandoned their other fronts (Kart-Hadast, Saba).

I did a check on the faction scroll, and they were swimming in the money. So I sent out some assassins for some sabotage actions. Couple of years down the line, they are nearly bankrupt.

I simply can't be bothered to conquer all the way to Meroe and Axum.

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Originally Posted by Danzifuge

stuck at rome. i've killed 20k roman soldiers. but sure enough after every battle they build another 20 unit stack. i'm sick of these money bonuses and i'm gonna just have to delete the whole section in the script. i don't give a shit if it makes em a bunch of pussies. the feasibility that an army that size could be raised in one turn on a consistent basis when they're left with three subpar cities and blockaded ports is bullshit. hannibal never held any cities and just ravaged the countryside so rome still had a fighting chance to recruit.

i swear to god every battle is evenly matched with about 3k soldiers on each side. i kill about 5/6 of their men while only taking 1/6 casualties on average. then the very next turn what do i see? another full stack that wasn't there before. this is fuckin nuts :furious3:

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Ahhh.... come on now. Its mercs!

yes its a B! and yes its not fiar. But come on! 3 Towns!!!!

Dude get a 1full stack, 1/2 stack, and 1/2 stack of crappy units. The full stack fights and takes over cities, the 1/2 stack replenishes lost men, and the 1/2 stack of crappy units come to the cities to garrison them.

Your 1 full stack never stops moving!

Now get on it! And don't take many casualties!

.........

On a related subject.
The only people who "need" the money script are people who play a "Sim City EB" type game.
--That is they stay put where they are and build up their cities. And they expand very rarely.

Hey that's me!

Well I go like hit hard. Mmmmm, ok stablize situation for XX years depending on how long it takes. Build up build up.

Then BAM 3~7 new provinces mine!

Ok back to stablizing the situation.

At least that's how I played in Saka Rauka. Whenever I went on the offensive my enemies no matter which faction don't know what hit them.

So I fit that criteria. I stay where I am and build up anywhere between 1 year to 10 years or more (since my victory condition required me to save up money anyway).
And I don't expand often.

Of course when I do the size of my empire grow by lots at the end of my expansion campaign.

nononononononononono Parallel you ARE NOT an "EB sim city" gamer.

EB sim city expands very little, or very slowly, or expands to a few areas. Also EB sim city stays longer chilling and building cities. He occasionaly fights, but he uses the $$ script because he doesn't want the AI to spam full stacks at him every turn.
(just read the older threads of .81x when they complained about the Sweboz/Aedui/Arveri spamming with stack after stack. That is where the $$ script came from. I told to attack and take over their enemies land, but that was not their goal so.... they created the $$ scrip to continue their style of play) ($$ script is also used by strict roleplaying guys)


Expanding, holding off to stabilize/build up the new towns, and then expand again is normal play in VH/VH. Thanks in large part to the MIC system.