Some greek names are wrong ( I think)

Well as I said: I think I have reported some mistakes in the greek names
of buildings,units and other.
Especially in the grammar.
Because as they told me many members said that they are greeks
and didn't know at last ancient greek, I'll try to write down as many as I see
because I'm new to this mod.
I'll tell you the same I'm Greek and as all the Greeks I'm taught ancient
greek (hellenistic period - hellenike koine with latin characters).
I'd like any comments refering to this, especially from those
that they have knowledge of ancient greek. (not only standard use of it
but more about the origin of the words).
:yes: :beam: :2thumbsup:

Just to let you know, we're not using Koine. We use Attic instead.

And, erm, where exactly did you report them ?

You know that scene from Die Hard: Vengeance where Bruce Willis is wearing a sign in an unsavoury part of the city saying;

"I hate African-American citizens"?

Well, this would be as funny as that if it were a movie and you weren't really going to be torn up between the EB team and eaten, Georgie!

Ok you said that you use attic..
Do you know which the difference between attic,koine or doric , ionic?
And to say it, I would say that it is pretty wrong to use attic dialect in this
time because the koine was spread through the ancient world.(sorry for the misuse of english language).
I'll try to say an ancient phrase very famous:
"Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ" which dialect is that? And how would be in other dialects?

you think you're an authority by virtue of native-born education? :applause: So, everyone in Greece is a professor then, right? You do know that not everything the government/state tells you is handed down from divine origin, correct?

Not only are there no helpful comments made by you (or did you post somewhere else?) as the subject of the thread states- you expect someone to jump through your hoops so you can perform a self-satisfactory 'test' to prove that you know something you haven't bothered to state yet? wha- wha- WHAT?! :bow: sorry, that's too insane, even for me

PS- no need to apologize for your use of English, it's not bad

What kind of offence is that?
Do you enjoy showing that answering in that way
it is a little pathetic?
In any case no one has any "divine right" but I'd like
this game to be improved. This is not a test for self- satisfaction
or showing that I'm a professor but with that way I want to
show some things can be better...
If you have any more productive comments will be kind of you.
But this answer didn't show any prudence...
I started from this time to collect some names and it will be soon in this
thread. sorry for waiting..:smash: .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Glenn

You know that scene from Die Hard: Vengeance where Bruce Willis is wearing a sign in an unsavoury part of the city saying;

"I hate African-American citizens"?

Well, this would be as funny as that if it were a movie and you weren't really going to be torn up between the EB team and eaten, Georgie!

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how true.... well, i think im just going to sit back and enjoy the show, seeing that i know nothing of the subject.....:sweatdrop:

While it's entirely possible there are mistakes, we will indeed be using transliterations of Attic pronunciations and not koine ones. Thrace has a subscript iota - look it up in any classical dictionary. Koine and modern greeks would not pronounce it, but it is pronounced as an iota in classical greek, therefore we will render it as such. By the latter part of the 2nd century BC, it seems as though the verbalization of the subscript had ceased. Classical iota subscripts are sometimes rendered in inscriptions with iotas themselves. Latin loan words like tragoedus and comoedus reflect the pronunciation also in case some additional evidence is required.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs

Ok you said that you use attic..
Do you know which the difference between attic,koine or doric , ionic?
And to say it, I would say that it is pretty wrong to use attic dialect in this
time because the koine was spread through the ancient world.(sorry for the misuse of english language).
I'll try to say an ancient phrase very famous:
"Η ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ" which dialect is that? And how would be in other dialects?

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Okay, first of all - Koine was not yet there in 272 BC. It develops within our timeframe, and towards the end it gradually replaced Attic as the lingua franca of the 'Hellenic' world. But that was not the case yet in 272 BC, so we don't use Koine. 'sides: Attic is more fun! :beam:

Anyways, we do at times take the liberty to mix in a few other dialects -- though not on the campaign map (yet?) AFAIK. On the battlemap you do get some 'Makedonian', e.g.: Ondres instead of Andres. You might've guessed why&when: the equestrian tradition of the Makedones gets them some 'Makedonian' when cavalry units are called.

Still I wouldn't be surprised if an error was made every now and then, or simply not fixed yet. So feel free to point them out. An EB member may then pick them up and use it to EB's benefit by correcting the mistake, or might argue why it's not a mistake -- I myself am a bit to inactive to do so atm.

yes you have some right about the iota
but the problem is that the game is around 272 BC right?
This time prevails koine. the romans at this time were using dipthoggs
like ai,oi instead of ae,oe which are later. The same happens to the greek.
using attic it would be more likely at the time of 5th Cent. BC.
comoedus,tragoedus were written like this: ΚΟΜΟΙΔΙΑ--> ΚΟΜΩΔΙΑ, ΤΡΑΓΟΙΔΙΑ-->ΤΡΑΓΩΔΙΑ.
In some cases ΟΙ becomes Ω but not every Ω becomes ΟΙ.
I didn't see all the words but e.g. the words ΑΔΗΣ - hades is like that? In the attic should be ΗΑΙΔΕΣ-->ΑΙΔΗΣ-->AΔΗΣ in koine.
Also to say attic,doric and others the elements are so few that
we cannot rely on them so accureately to reproduce the dialects.
There are also professors between universities that they dispute for this reasons. They dispute even for
latin which their evolution was much later.
But the attic dialect also has and other letters which they are not used
what about F and I (as consonant) or Q (yes it is used in classical greek).

And the last thing to mention for now is that of the grammar and syntax.
I think that there are also mistakes to mention later.
Thank you for listening to me.

We start in 272. We set the game up for then. Koine has not "prevailed" by then. We will continue to use the classical forms. The few professors that dispute it are in the vast minority and I'd advise not to try to start arguing against a vast Erasmian conspiracy theory. In the end, I can assure you with the utmost confidence that we are not changing our decision on that. If there is an individual mistake that we have made, we will be happy to look into it, but understand that we are more than happy to include these 272 pronunciations as we have transliterated them.

Well I don't have any intention to see behind
the conspiracy but you may also know that
Alexander obliged the greek to be taught to
anyone within his empire. The need was such that
he made the greek to be changed to a more
easy way to learn. The vowels lost most of
their quantity (literaly), he had put certain stressing marks
to help the learning of the greek among the conquered
people,he had "destroyed" letters like H(consonant),I(consonant),Q,F.
and around 272BC had passed 50 years of this kind of education.

I don't know if you'd like to do changes.
I will continue to refer to any "mistakes" which of them
I think they are.
Maybe in few days I will have exact phrases or words.

Let's focus on the individual phrases etc. for now, ok? It is easier to comment and argue on specific individual cases.

This is tiring, but is not surprising. For years we have had to deal with one particular group telling us this pronunciation/transliteration is wrong - one group out of the whole world. . You think obviously that all changes that occurred from classical Attic to koine happpened overnight. They did not. Many different changes occurred over about four centuries and since our game starts in 272 BC, before the consensus of modern classical philologists say (just about any of) those changes happened, we are not putting them into it. That is the end of that discussion as far as we are concerned.

but i, for one, am having fun seing the EB team puting thier expertise to use... and im learning too!

Read the old threads. This has happened I would guess about 8 or 9 times, maybe more. It was old after the third or fourth one. We have not changed our minds. Consider us stubborn if you will, but we'd rather actually go back to working on the mod than rehash this for the 10th or 11th time.

why dont you put it in the FAQ?

Yeah, put it in the FAQ - but write it in Greek!

Pardon me, Attic!

The only mistake in Greek I have seen in EB is about Zeus' statue in Olympia called "Zoanon" instead of "Xoanon"; well I suppose this comes from the undying habit of most native English speakers to pronounce Greek Ξ (= ks, as in accept)) as they pronounce English X (that is, like z oftentimes), when in fact usually those represent completely different sounds.

Also a few of the Greek personal names that come up look a bit bizzare at times, I am not sure if all of these are attested, but other than that everything is in perfect order.

Still quite unsure what mistakes the original poster is refering to, an example would help.

P.S. You can p.m. me in Greek with them, if you are not too comfortable with English, that is modern Greek...

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Originally Posted by Glenn

Yeah, put it in the FAQ - but write it in Greek!

Pardon me, Attic!

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Here here!

this disscuccion is indeed old-seen many of them (2 or 3); might as well put a "monthly koine greek" page as well (like the monthly lorica segmentata page).

but this gets me wondering: what is the difference between koine and attic? can someone also tell me about doric vs. attic, just as a bonus; I'm trying to learn attic, got the nouns but verbs are confusing. also tackling old persian, germanic, sanskrit, and south arabian (actually looking for specific words); anyone knows where to get info on them?:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: to anyone who will help.

Koine is the evolution of Attic Greek; it features somewhat simplified grammar and syntax and it ends up being pronounced a lot different than Attic. The modern Greek pronunciation is very close if not identical to what the Koine ended up sounding like. The orthography didn't change though and hasn't changed to this day.

Doric Greek and Attic Greek are two dialects of the same language; they are mutually intelligible with some effort, think of the relation like that between Geordi and Cockney English, both evolving from a common ancestral language. If you want specifics of the phonetic correspondences and grammatical variations that would get too technical indeed, if you don't have some knowledge of Attic at least (dunno if you do).

Thanks!

if you know the technicals-send them to di.nof.elis@hotmail.com if you can E-mail. that will come handy-if you know them:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

Thanks!

if you know the technicals-send them to di.nof.elis@hotmail.com if you can E-mail. that will come handy-if you know them:balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

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I will p.m. you in a while with some examples then. :)

Sorry to hi-jack this thread. I'm with Ibrahim and if possible, would like to ask a few questions. general knowledge stuff as I am not so smart. :dizzy2:

1) Attic greek comes from which geographical area? (I know ... attic, but could you locate it on the EB map for reference?) ((i kind of know this answer, but it sets up the other questions))

2) Doric Greek comes from which geographical area?

3) Koine means ... what? And why is the KH faction called thusly. (yes, I just wanted to say "thusly")

I appreciate your :help: ! I don't want to take up any of the EB team's time. As we are all awaiting for 1.1. Well, that is after I get a good KH campaign in on 1.0, and then a Lusotannon campaign, oh yeah, a Sweboz too oh and then a ...


:yes:

1. Attica, the region around Athens.
2. Doric is spoken in many regions, most prominent is the region of Sparta, but Doric colonies are found in Asia minor, Krete, Sicily and probably elsewhere.
3. Koine=Common (feminine gender of adjective koinos). Koinon Hellenon is supposed to be transalated like "Greek Commonwealth" or something (koinon is the neuter of the adjective).

@Ibrahim: pmed you.

For anyone willing to learn about pronounciation of Attic Greek you could start by looking up Keravnos' signature: in there is an awesome link... :book:

Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs, as someone who has seen similiar discussions go down on the forum, you really need to consider referencing actual material to back up your statements if you want the EB team to ever take your request seriously. Find some first rate sources to back up your claims about the timetable and distribution of Koine and Attic Greek. While EB isn't free of mistakes you got to remember that the team over the years have had to put up with lets say some extreme nationalist who have made some rather colorful ideas about ancient greek and that have made very similiar claims to what your saying right now. Best of luck in your research.

p.s. What is up with the format of your post? Makes it hard to read.

By the way, would I be correct in assuming some snobbery leading to conventional Attic being the dominant dialect among elites during the time in which Koine was developing, and thus much of EBs period?

Just wondering - could be an interesting (language) trait if so...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

By the way, would I be correct in assuming some snobbery leading to conventional Attic being the dominant dialect among elites during the time in which Koine was developing, and thus much of EBs period?

Just wondering - could be an interesting (language) trait if so...

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You would be correct to assume something similar for the next 2000 years or so after EB's timeframe actually; up until less than 40 years ago the official Greek language of the modern Greek state was a simplified form of Attic/Koine, called "katharevusa" ("pure language"), used by scholars, state officials and the Church (the Church still uses it for its official documents). Modern Greek is a mixture of the katharevusa (much vocabulary derives from it) and demotic Greek.