Diplomats - What's the Point?

A typical diplomatic effort:
Us: Look, this war is dragging on and on. You can't really win, so why don't you agree to a ceasefire?
Them: Ceasefire? Never! We will destroy you all!
...
Us: We've burned down your capital. Why not agree to a ceasefire, since you seem to be losing the war?
Them: Ceasefire? Never! We will destroy you all!
...
Us: Okay, we're about to attack your last city. How about agreeing to a ceasefire now? Your city isn't worth much to us...
Them: Ceasefire? Never! We will destroy you all!
...
Us: Okay, we've sacked all your cities and burned down your palace. We're about to cut your head off. Ready to be reasonable?
Them: Never! I will destroy you all!

Once you've got all your trade rights, is there any point in having diplomats?

Forced Diplomacy + Playing on Medium or Hard Campaign difficulty COULD help.

RTW diplomacy sucks, nothing to see here, move along.

Well, a settlement/stack is much more difficult to bribe with a diplomat in it, so they do something good by themselves (besides trade rights), at least. Force diplomacy, as said, gives them a little more use as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking

Well, a settlement/stack is much more difficult to bribe with a diplomat in it, so they do something good by themselves (besides trade rights), at least. Force diplomacy, as said, gives them a little more use as well.

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yes, having them in your armies is a great idea.

Also, I cannot play without forced diplomacy anymore, seeing as how I'm a primarily defensive player.

Ah but it can be quite an entertaining game in and of itself to try and get some reasonable diplomacy going. It, of course, helps if you do not play on VH and have some cash to spare on a regular basis... ~;)

The AI becomes alot smarter with diplomay as long as you dont share a border. The moment your color touches theirs a rabid bloodlust comes over them and they must wipe out your provinces one by one until theirs an ocean or a nation between you.

Yet for all that I (or the AI?) managed to keep an alliance with the Sweboz for roughly 55 years or so as the Casse. 500 Mnai tribute a turn, sweetened the diplomacy between us a good deal of course... When in fact about half of my empire bordered them. About 60 years for the Aedui alliance -without tribute, that one!

Yes, that might happen, if war never started; but once it starts, every war has to be a goddamn Great Patriotic War, as suggested by the "TW" in the game's title.:no:

Medium difficulty AI diplomacy is comparably ok; at least the AI seems to have some kind of minimum concept of reason in it. Don't expect any Machiavellian schemes though.
Also, you've got to take into account, that after each load, the AI diplomacy concept is basically reset. Because of that, the AI will sometimes break off sieges etc. After each load, I give my allies a small pecuniary present. Doesn't have to be much, the good intention counts. ~;) If you do that and do it on a more or less regular base, your allies will be more faithful to a certain extent. Thus I was able to maintain my alliance with Rome for quite some time as Carthage. However, as they decided to start the Punic War (by moving more and more troops to southern Italy while still being at war with the Gauls in the North), this little measure of maintainig good will was only delaying the inevitable.
I used this same method as Baktria on the Pahlava as well. They broke off the alliance with me, when Seleukeia started the war against me, but broke the one with Seleukeia shortly after and reallied with me. They're concerned with exterminating the Saka for now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PenguinLobster

The AI becomes alot smarter with diplomay as long as you dont share a border. The moment your color touches theirs a rabid bloodlust comes over them and they must wipe out your provinces one by one until theirs an ocean or a nation between you.

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Does anyone know if a landbridge counts as sharing a border for the purposes of diplomacy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morte66

Does anyone know if a landbridge counts as sharing a border for the purposes of diplomacy?

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I believe it does. Though it may not count as a likely attack route (all things being relative), as the AI prefers to attack provinces with roads connecting them.

Alliances, trade rights, map info, you can keep getting map info as your allied territories expand, so this is useful

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elmetiacos

A typical diplomatic effort:
Us: Look, this war is dragging on and on. You can't really win, so why don't you agree to a ceasefire?
Them: Ceasefire? Never! We will destroy you all!
...
Us: We've burned down your capital. Why not agree to a ceasefire, since you seem to be losing the war?
Them: Ceasefire? Never! We will destroy you all!
...
Us: Okay, we're about to attack your last city. How about agreeing to a ceasefire now? Your city isn't worth much to us...
Them: Ceasefire? Never! We will destroy you all!
...
Us: Okay, we've sacked all your cities and burned down your palace. We're about to cut your head off. Ready to be reasonable?
Them: Never! I will destroy you all!

Once you've got all your trade rights, is there any point in having diplomats?

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno

ARTHUR:
You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Knight.
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in my court at Camelot.
You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?
[silence]
You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.

BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.

ARTHUR:
What?

BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.

ARTHUR:
I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight, but I must cross this bridge.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Then you shall die.

ARTHUR:
I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!

BLACK KNIGHT:
I move for no man.

ARTHUR:
So be it!

ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT fighting:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]

ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.

BLACK KNIGHT:
'Tis but a scratch.

ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm's off!

BLACK KNIGHT:
No, it isn't.

ARTHUR:
Well, what's that, then?

BLACK KNIGHT:
I've had worse.

ARTHUR:
You liar!

BLACK KNIGHT:
Come on, you pansy!
Huyah!
Hiyaah!
Aaaaaaaah!
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]

ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--

BLACK KNIGHT kicking ARTHUR:
Hah!
Come on, then.

ARTHUR:
What?

BLACK KNIGHT:
Have at you!
[kick]

ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh, had enough, eh?

ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Yes, I have.

ARTHUR:
Look!

BLACK KNIGHT:
'Tis but a flesh wound.
[kick]

ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!

ARTHUR:
Look, I'll have your leg.
[is kicked]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:
Right. I'll do you for that!

ARTHUR:
You'll what?

BLACK KNIGHT:
Come here!

ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?

BLACK KNIGHT:
I'm invincible!

ARTHUR:
You're a looney.

BLACK KNIGHT:
The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]

ARTHUR:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
Come, Patsy.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

speaking of which:

1-how do you force diplomacy? (I want detailed instructions)
2-the black knight is on something-and I'd like to have some...:laugh4: :laugh4:

lol pezhetairoi :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

1-how do you force diplomacy? (I want detailed instructions)

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Check out this thread here. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=80763

That was a great clip and very appropriate. :laugh4:

Don't be too hasty to judge. The problem that the AI has is to have bloodlust when the borders touch, but a way to ensure peace is to offer a small tribute of 100mnai for 100 turns. Then they won't break the peace, but to get them to accept it is hard as they always seem reluctant to accept gifts?! And of course you have to do it before they declare war.

If you want serious diplomacy, make sure that there is no land border, or make the alliance, etc.. before you reach a border with them.

For instance, I was the SPQR and had 2 full stacks in sicily just to take Messana and agreed a peace with Carthage, who only declared way because of the script, whereby they handed Lilbeo to me, and then put their army on a ship and sailed to africa.
That would never happen if I already had messana!

Oh Monty Python, you guys are crazy. :)

About diplomats, although they aren't always the most useful I found a very important function for them-power balance.

Given the nature of the yellow death, I always send 4-5 diplomats to the region, and give myself 500000 mnai. Whenever the Ptolemies start to expand above Taurus, I get suspicious and bribe every single army, and whatever is left is disbanded. Under strict self-imposed rules, I never use the money for myself.

After around 70 years, I have finally managed to reach some sort of political equilibrium, but only after a series of trial and errors. Strengthing Pontus and Armenia, and giving the AS time to build armies which do not head to damn India, made battle around Levant alot more common. At the moment the War between Ptolemies and AS is stuck around Damascus as armies wrestle each other for control(the region has experience 5-6 famous battles).

Also I have finally managed to make the Saka expand into Sarmatian lands, and the Baktrians and Pahlav to expand into their historical conquests.(Normally baktria tends to own everything, or sometimes at very odd situation get owned very early).

Although some might consider this sort of playing very wearing, I have to do it for story and historical purposes. At the moment the AI needs only to place a FM into a newly conquered city to have it not rebel, which makes expansion really quick.

You'll even notice that right at the end, the Black Knight even makes a reference to the Ptolemaioi. It was so apt I couldn't but include it :D

I do that with diplomats too. It's the only use I make of them, and also forced diplomacy. I mean, sure it's strange that the player sets the rules for the diplomacy ingame, but it's a fact that we players possibly have a much clearer and fairer idea of diplomatic interaction than the AI could possible have.

Diplomats are required for bribing enemy settlements and armies and family members away from them.

With exception to the rebels, I think one key is to remain at peace as long as possible and keep your factional wars very short.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pezhetairoi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno

ARTHUR:
You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Knight.
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in my court at Camelot.
You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?
[silence]
You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.

BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.

ARTHUR:
What?

BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.

ARTHUR:
I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight, but I must cross this bridge.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Then you shall die.

ARTHUR:
I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!

BLACK KNIGHT:
I move for no man.

ARTHUR:
So be it!

ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT fighting:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]

ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.

BLACK KNIGHT:
'Tis but a scratch.

ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm's off!

BLACK KNIGHT:
No, it isn't.

ARTHUR:
Well, what's that, then?

BLACK KNIGHT:
I've had worse.

ARTHUR:
You liar!

BLACK KNIGHT:
Come on, you pansy!
Huyah!
Hiyaah!
Aaaaaaaah!
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]

ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--

BLACK KNIGHT kicking ARTHUR:
Hah!
Come on, then.

ARTHUR:
What?

BLACK KNIGHT:
Have at you!
[kick]

ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh, had enough, eh?

ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Yes, I have.

ARTHUR:
Look!

BLACK KNIGHT:
'Tis but a flesh wound.
[kick]

ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!

ARTHUR:
Look, I'll have your leg.
[is kicked]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:
Right. I'll do you for that!

ARTHUR:
You'll what?

BLACK KNIGHT:
Come here!

ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?

BLACK KNIGHT:
I'm invincible!

ARTHUR:
You're a looney.

BLACK KNIGHT:
The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]

ARTHUR:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
Come, Patsy.

BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

---

That sums up RTW diplomacy.

I recall one instance from my 0.81 Mak campaign and one from my 1.0 Carthie campaign were I managed to get a peace treaty after a war of several rounds, including battles.

The first was Maks vs. Ptollies and the peace afterward lasted for about 2 or 3 years. I forgot a single FM in a fort directly on their border in the middle of nowhere. I think they attacked me again because they just couldn't resist.

The second instance was Carthies vs. Sweboz. I had all of southern Gaul to Helvetia. After a few very big battles, and lots of aborted sieges of Aventicos and another fort, I offered them 10,000 mnai and the unbelievable happened: They really accepted. But this happened only 3 turns ago, so I have no idea how long it will last...:grin: