FMAA and CMAA.

Something I have been trying to work out by myself but I give up.

FMAA and CMAA, what's the deal with those guys ?

When I first started playing the game, I thought these guy looked cool and used them a lot but ended up in a lot of trouble most of the time. Thus all my armies where made of missile units, spears and cavalry (most of the time that is quite enough to deal with any army managed by the AI). Added some poleamrs in the high period and that was pretty much it.

Then I read somewhere than most armies used in online battles were made of swordmen rather than spearmen. Thought I must have missed something and tried again to use more FMAA and CMAA. I did get sliightly better results than before (not really an achievement) but I still feel that those two units make things more difficult for me since at equal valour:

- they do ok against spear but nothing exceptional. THey make mincemeat out of vanilla spearmen but it takes them quite a while to deal with FS or CS;
- they suffer heavy casulaties against any unit with AP bonuis;
- they get rolled-over by cavalry (except in woods).

Evne though the loose some mobility when placed that way, I almost always use them in two ranks as recommanded in the unit guide ... I thought it has something to do with the weak charge but that does not seem to be than since I found out that in many cases the AI is silly enough to let my FMMA "walk against" its units without ever charging.

Anything I would have missed ?

They are only good in MP because they are cheaper and therefore players can buy more upgrades. With equal valor they are not that much stronger than heavy spears. In SP you will worry more about the upkeep which is different than the initial cost.

If you face spears you can use the wedge formation as that is very good at disrupting spears and will remove the spear rank bonuses.

FMAA are 50/50 v Billmen so apart from the shield that gives added protection against missiles and slightly better v unarmoured targets the Billmen are the best to buy really.

Using 2-3 rank formation is so they can overlap the spear unit and get into the flanks and have more 1v1 fights with no spear rank bonuses.


CBR

Flanking and woods. Never go toe-to-toe and attempt to cleave through troops. Very unrefined.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Never go toe-to-toe and attempt to cleave through troops. Very unrefined.

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Unrefined indeed and it does not work very well either. There are huscarls for that sort of brutal thing.

MAA's are good all round troops. Great vs cavalry in the woods, but equally good at flanking and face to face combat. There's not much a CMAA's can't take on and not do well against. The combination of good attack, defense and armour means that they can give and take well. If you can flank something with them, they will apply pressure like a vise that slowly tightens and crushes the victim with few losses. Don't expect instant results from them though, they lack shock value but act like acid against most units, slowly but surely wearing them away.

The thing to remember when ambushing from the woods - that is emerging from the woods in a charge to surprise and enemy - is that you should click to select the ambushing unit and then once on the enemy unit, any subsequent clicks will negate the surprise attack penalty that is inflicted on the target.

So for example if you had your Ghazis in the woods on engage at will and in wedge formation, you would click once on the target and do nothing more. I believe that double click to run also negates the effect as it counts as a second attack order. The way to have the unit run is to do CTRL+R after you have ordered it to attack. I have massacred pinned units of Kataphraktoi from the rear using Ghazis in this fashion.

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Originally Posted by caravel

The thing to remember when ambushing from the woods - that is emerging from the woods in a charge to surprise and enemy - is that you should click to select the ambushing unit and then once on the enemy unit, any subsequent clicks will negate the surprise attack penalty that is inflicted on the target.

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This is excellent advise, for me at least. I've considered ambushes impossible to pull of, and neglected them in my battles. I always seem to have my units 'found' before the enemy is close enough to charge though...

Well, more on topic: The ability to take damage is in the domain of spears, the ability to give damage on hvy. cav. and certain shock-troops (Ghazi, Vangarians ect ect.) Halbs are even more of a direct compeditor to swords as they are excellent melee units that even get a bonus against cav.
Why do you need swords who can do a little of everything? Because in many situations you'll need the ability to adapt to the situation on the battlefield as it develops. Swordsmen will persevere in most situations, and can act more independently as they have much better morale than halbs and often elite status. So in some ways it is a 'hybrid' unit. These 'invicible' abilities makes the swordsmen quite adept in my eyes, and often well worth the florins.

/KotR

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Originally Posted by Knight of the Rose

This is excellent advise, for me at least. I've considered ambushes impossible to pull of, and neglected them in my battles. I always seem to have my units 'found' before the enemy is close enough to charge though...

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I often find my hidden units are suspiciously targeted by the AI too.

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Originally Posted by Knight of the Rose

Well, more on topic: The ability to take damage is in the domain of spears, the ability to give damage on hvy. cav. and certain shock-troops (Ghazi, Vangarians ect ect.) Halbs are even more of a direct compeditor to swords as they are excellent melee units that even get a bonus against cav.
Why do you need swords who can do a little of everything? Because in many situations you'll need the ability to adapt to the situation on the battlefield as it develops. Swordsmen will persevere in most situations, and can act more independently as they have much better morale than halbs and often elite status. So in some ways it is a 'hybrid' unit. These 'invicible' abilities makes the swordsmen quite adept in my eyes, and often well worth the florins

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I think I under-use CMAA's, I always use them as a reserve unit behind the archer screen.

In my current Danish campaign I've been forced to use woodsmen, vikings and highland clansmen as my main army, with a few odds and ends and two units of spearmen. They are very effective but if I make a mistake they all end up dying...

The art of war, do not play fair.

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Originally Posted by Knight of the Rose

Why do you need swords who can do a little of everything? Because in many situations you'll need the ability to adapt to the situation on the battlefield as it develops. Swordsmen will persevere in most situations, and can act more independently as they have much better morale than halbs and often elite status. So in some ways it is a 'hybrid' unit. These 'invicible' abilities makes the swordsmen quite adept in my eyes, and often well worth the florins.

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You've pretty much hit the nail on the head why I use MAA's as much as I do. They're a solid (if unglamorous) multi-purpose unit, and they often add a much-needed tactical flexibility to my Catholic forces. I always have a few units of these guys in my main army stacks. :yes:

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Originally Posted by caravel

The thing to remember when ambushing from the woods - that is emerging from the woods in a charge to surprise and enemy - is that you should click to select the ambushing unit and then once on the enemy unit, any subsequent clicks will negate the surprise attack penalty that is inflicted on the target.

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Gah! I'd quite honestly forgotten about that. Goodness only knows how many ambushes I've screwed up because I double-clicked on an enemy unit. :wall: Will have to remember that from now on....

I often use Futuwwa and Nizari in ambushes. If you're going to do this you also need to turn off fire at will as they'll give away their position when they loose their arrows.

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Originally Posted by caravel

The thing to remember when ambushing from the woods - that is emerging from the woods in a charge to surprise and enemy - is that you should click to select the ambushing unit and then once on the enemy unit, any subsequent clicks will negate the surprise attack penalty that is inflicted on the target.

So for example if you had your Ghazis in the woods on engage at will and in wedge formation, you would click once on the target and do nothing more. I believe that double click to run also negates the effect as it counts as a second attack order. The way to have the unit run is to do CTRL+R after you have ordered it to attack. I have massacred pinned units of Kataphraktoi from the rear using Ghazis in this fashion.

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I did not know this. Boy, will I be invincible now! :charge:

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Originally Posted by caravel

The thing to remember when ambushing from the woods - that is emerging from the woods in a charge to surprise and enemy - is that you should click to select the ambushing unit and then once on the enemy unit, any subsequent clicks will negate the surprise attack penalty that is inflicted on the target.

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No wonder I blew it countless times ....:oops:

Now that I know and before I make up a new kind of blunder fro scrap:whip: , another question comes to my mind. What is the maximum distance between the edge of the woods where you are hiding and your target ?

I assume that hiding in the woods to then run accross the entire map does not count as an ambush. So what's the deal here ? Is the distance taken into account or the time you need to make contact (thus speed and distance) taken into account ?

And how does discovery work? Is there just a random chance that when an enemy unit gets within a certain range they will notice your concealed unit?

also, I am finally in a position to crush the Vikings. They are trapped on one Island off the Scottish coast - Domon? I am at peace with them but have no alliance and have a line of ships to in their island and a army bristling with Javelins to take down their Huscarles once and for all. I've caused rebellions in their home provinces of Jutland and Hoardland so their standing army is all that remains and they have nowhere to run.

Problem is that I can't land any troops on their island. everywhere else, but not there. Tehy have a ship in those waters too - does this prevent me from attacking them? I thought that was only with an alliance?

I believe it's based on not distance but time. When the hidden unit emerges near the enemy there is a morale penalty to the enemy unit for a certain period. I'm not sure of how long (seconds anyway) that info will be in the numerology thread.

It's best to wait until the enemy are actually passing the unit's position in the woods then execute it. If they get too close though, they'll see your unit first.

-Edit: I seem to remember it's only for flank attacks (charge) though, but the morale penalty is quite high.

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Originally Posted by Heidrek

Problem is that I can't land any troops on their island. everywhere else, but not there. Tehy have a ship in those waters too - does this prevent me from attacking them? I thought that was only with an alliance?

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Yes. When invading by sea, you must first destroy and/or drive off all ships (owned by the faction whose province you're attacking) that occupy any sea regions in your "invasion path". :yes:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

When the hidden unit emerges near the enemy there is a morale penalty to the enemy unit for a certain period.

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I've noticed ambushes can act a bit strangely, and I also believe its the moment the ambush is revealed that the target feels the morale hit because on occasion I've launched concealed units at the enemy who routed INSTANTLY, before the ambushers had even covered a few yards never mind actually reached the fighting.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

I've noticed ambushes can act a bit strangely, and I also believe its the moment the ambush is revealed that the target feels the morale hit because on occasion I've launched concealed units at the enemy who routed INSTANTLY, before the ambushers had even covered a few yards never mind actually reached the fighting.

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Tell me about it. It's a big anti climax when you're expecting your ghazi to go through the enemy like butter and the enemy simply turn and run.

I'm sure it only take effect though if they're approaching from a flank. Head on doesn't seem to work.

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Originally Posted by Brave

The art of war, do not play fair.

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Lol, I can't agree more :2thumbsup:

Ambushes seem to be a facet of the game I've missed entirely so far. Does anyone know how close the ambush unit has to be to the target in order for the morale penalty to hit? Does the chance of being spotted increase as the enemy unit gets closer? Do soem units hide better than others?

I must now ambush the enemy until I have mastered this tactic also.

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Does the chance of being spotted increase as the enemy unit gets closer? Do soem units hide better than others?

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Units will be seen once the enemy is close enough. I am beginning to believe that units which can "hide in the open" do hide "better", ie the enemy has to be closer to see them than another unit just hiding in the woods, but this is based on a single observation in the heat of battle, and not tested rigourously. :bow:

Also am I the only one who has trouble making units hide? I mean sometimes in deployment I have to move a unit around a dozen or so times til I find an exact position where it successfully goes into hiding....

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Also am I the only one who has trouble making units hide? I mean sometimes in deployment I have to move a unit around a dozen or so times til I find an exact position where it successfully goes into hiding....

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I have that very same problem; it's weird because sometimes units towards the front of the woodland seem to be better hid than those deeper in.