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Do you use wedge formation with cavalry and infantry units? I've found it seems to be better if you just line the unit up so that it can wrap around the flanks, or at least cover as much surface area as possible. WEdge formation just seems to get my units killed because they get seperateed. Anyone have any thouhgts on how to use this effectively?
Supposedly, there is a +3 atk & -3 def for the unit using wedge. It can make sense to use this with flanking units, as long as you watch their back.:charge:
I don't use it much mainly because of the defense penalty. It basically speeds up the killing on both sides. The formation should be used for a devastating flank attack or to break up enemy lines. It can also be used to sneak your unit between a tight gap.
If I remember correctly, the "point" of the wedge it the unit leader, so your king's unit should never be put into wedge formation.
highland clansemen are a good wedge unit against basic spears, as are gallowglasses and ghazi infantry, so as to break the spear formation to pieces. I've actually insta-routed lesser spears with a straight on wedge before. Even if you don't, it'll make the enemy unit very vulnerable to flank attacks.
Wedge is best used with smaller units like Cavalry or depleted intantry, and can increase the attacking power of the unit dramatically. I almost exclusively use Wedge formation when using lighter cavalry to rear strike a unit as it boosts their attack and their defense is usually so bad that making it worse is no real loss. Gallowglasses and Highland Clansmen are good examples of this.
A unit in Wedge formation charging into a flank, or even better - rear will cause havoc. I've even used vanilla Archers in a Wedge as an effective flanking unit.
Why use it only when flanking and not face to face? Because face to face you'll feel the full effect of the -3 defense penalty, while in a flank attack, it takes a while for the enemy to fight back, and fewer of them are able to because they are already enganged meaning you get all the +3 attack benefit, but are less affected by the -3 def penalty.
Hiding your Ghazis in the woods in wedge formation and having them emerge and hit the enemy in the flank is always a good strategy. I tend to switch back to line after the initial charge has ended.
The way I use wedge formation is purely for shock. E.g. I'll charge my cavalry at what I believe is a wavering unit - even spearmen in some cases. Then obviously I find out that it wasn't wavering at all and either pull my troops out or change back to normal formation. :laugh4:
So really, if it doesn't break on impact, pull back for spears or pin them down in line formation. Well, that's just the way I use it... I'm not sure what others do.
Oh and this reminds me:
In one of my very first campaigns, some rebels had appeared in my king's province - completely outnumbered and still new to the game I had no clue what to do. One of the very first things I did during the battle was charge all my cavalry (including my king + heirs) in wedge formation straight into the heart of the enemy line. Needless to say it failed miserably and my remaining army had suffered greatly from the loss in morale. I ended up with just one heir left (who became king the next turn) and had one less province then I did before. :jester:Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
On the plus side, the frontal wedge will hit the opponent's general with all it's power. You can instantly kill the enemy king this way (or your general dies horribly, depending on what unit that's stronger :sweatdrop: ), so it works both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
Actually, I think it's a bit more subtle than this - the individual men with the highest personal valour in the unit go into the van. This isn't necessarily the unit leader - I have on occasion put units into wedge formation and the unit flag (which usually hovers over the leader, I believe) has appeared well back in the unit, and not in the van.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drone
Try it out on a unit where the leader has a valour-reducing vice like gluttony and you'll probably see this effect :bow:
Are you sure about this? Though I must admit I could use wedge formation more often, I've never seen this happen. I've seen however a unit leader going down and then being replaced by someone down the ranks :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by macsen rufus
I could be wrong, though it would be the first time this year :2thumbsup: (joke)
/KotR
I only use the wedge if i rly need to split a unit apart and then kill it. And i only use is if i can afford to lose my troops because yea it gets them merced quick
Generally it is best to use the wedge with your infantry to break up a spear formation. If the formation is already broken up then a cavalry wedge is more appropriate.
I still remember one time when I charged my knights into a badly spread out unit of Mongols. They routed before taking casualties because they were all alone and my cavalry commander was already through the heart of their unit.
Overall for cavalry a line formation is best because it increases the surface area of the charge. Line is also best for infantry if they can wrap around one or both flanks. Wedge may also be good for wedging between two units of spearmen, not just breaking one up.
Interesting stuff indeed. - I usually go for wedge as my default for cavalry charges into flanks or into archers. It usually results in them breaking and fleeing pretty quickly.
...But, I have to admit it's all one way traffic if some enemy spears manage to wheel in front of my horses. Ouch.
Besides from the already mentioned advantages, I use wedge when I need the extra attack to be able to harm the enemy.
Take jedi generals - especially in early, or if I field an army without AP units, they can be invincible. So I take a spear unit (as they have a high charge factor) and wedge them. The charge and the additional attack-bonus is absolutely critical and means the difference between making a kill or only a pushback. Of cause my minions die miserably, but that is their job. I use the same tactics against royal knights when I don't have acces to polearms.
/KotR
I use wedge sometimes with peasants, especially in the early period when peasants comprise a main force of most armies. They already die in no time, so why not get some kills first using wedge?
After reading this post last week, I did use wedge a bit more often.
My first thought was that that formation would be used with units with high attack or strong charge (clansmen, viking, gallowglasses, militia) but found it a bit risky cause if that same unit is flanked it dies real fast.
Had almost given up trying when one of my crusades (made of spears, few missile and two hospitalier knights) was about to be beaten by those damned byz infantrymen. Dismounted the hospitalier knights, found a nice cosy hill, put them in wedge formation and when the byz started climbing I just let them loose. They killed whatever lied in front them with surprisingly low casulaties (20 for one and 10 for the other)and caused a mass rout after they had hacked and slashed their way to the enemy general and made mince meat out of him (silly katatank fighting in woods ...sometimes the AI tries to help you ...). Killed about 150 men each and could have done much better if they had not been too slow moving to catch routers. My general had three stars and the byz commander had 5 so that it is not the result of a better commander on my side. Might not work that well when facing units with AP bonus though. Could try the same with halbs but I would fear that their morale is just too low. Chiv knights would probably work nicely as well.
In my new english early campaign, I've been dismounting my less desirable princes and using them as shock troops in my big battles. The band of 20 heroes in wedge charges into a disorganised French or German feudal sergeants or spearmen, and does terrific damage, usually routing them. They are fun to use.
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Originally Posted by caravel
using the woods i a good idea in most cases... on places with woods or hills wih woods i leave a bait unit out and use the troops in an alaxander type hammer and anvil move.
The wedge is really good like you said in those cases
Cav are higly powered anyway, normal formation is sufficient to flank.
Slightly off topic, but just a quick question on something that has come up in this thread that I'm sure one of the more learned members will quickly be able to answer.
^^ In Melee, when does the difference between kills and capturing occur?? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnier
You can only capture when the unit is routing (running away).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironsword
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Originally Posted by Brave
Ah yes, but wedging can allow even your light cavalry to get the extra punch they need to route an engaged unit. Knights are fine in close formation, probably Mounted Sergeants too, but Steepe Cavalry and the like lack a little impact against aroured troops. Putting them into a wedge lets them do the damage they really need to. Driving a wedge of anything into someones back is always good, but getting some melee value out of your missile or light cavalry is great. Besides, if they have low defense, they're going to die fast anyway, may as well get some more kills from them and hopefully Rout the enemy faster.