Troubles with Almos and Cumans

In the last couple of campaigns I have done I have been the Lithuanians and the Kievans.

I've been having a similar problem in either campaigns when I had to fight the Almovohads (sp?) and the Cumans. Both factions have very good javelin troops which are very good at wiping through my spearmen or amoured frontliners. Especially in the case of the Bashkrots, it is often the case that the Cumans' armies will have 4-6 groups of them. So far, nothing I have tried have worked on these guys so I was wondering what other people do against them.

Also, to complicate matters, against the Cumans I often run into their heavy calvary. These guys really throw a monkey wrench into the equation because they make it more difficult to just charge some Horse Archers at the Bashkrots to try to scatter them because those Cumans will head right for my Archers and crush them very quickly.

So, for the Cumans I need to find a way to neutralize those heavy calvary and then maybe scattering the Bashkrots would be easier.....in the case of the Almos, it's just a matter of numbers. When they rush my defenses, they throw a large number of men at my spears and then line up their javelin infrantry up and start piling up my casualties in tidy little piles. Either that or they'll send the javelins first and then bring a large attack right up behind them making it hard for me to engage them without breaking my formation and leaving myself vulnerable to the charge that is coming soon.

Any advice on handling these guys would be great.

As I'm not playing XL-mod, I can only give some general advice:

When facing javelins, I always try to outrange them - aka archers in any variation of the theme. Jav on foot are also vunerable to flanking cav. The Baskorts(sp?) is a hybrid unit iirc, with melee capacities. That puts the emphasis on archers even more. Mayhaps some cheap units such as peasants and UM could be used to suck up the javelins before they are flanked with better units? (Or are peasants out in XL?)

Heavy cav, especially in early, is always a serious threat. They are expensive and strong, and can't - and shouldn't - be taken down easily. You need to flank them, and for that purpose you need a pinning unit of some quality as well. I'f you're lucky or skilled hvy cav fails miserably in a forrests though.

But both these units are some of the toughest in the game (I've heard), so don't despair if you lose some battles. It will only make the game more interersting...

KotR

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knight of the Rose

Heavy cav, especially in early, is always a serious threat. They are expensive and strong, and can't - and shouldn't - be taken down easily.
KotR

---

What's with the heavy cavalry nuthugging? ~;)

They get killed, as all of us do, if they make a dumb move. Standing in range of archers is a dumb move. Or what?! ~:grouphug:

Rgrds!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bondovic

What's with the heavy cavalry nuthugging? ~;)

They get killed, as all of us do, if they make a dumb move. Standing in range of archers is a dumb move. Or what?! ~:grouphug:

Rgrds!

---

Problem is that they don't stay just in range that long......they charge rather quickly and tend to rip through my front lines just as fast.

I suppose you could sick 2 groups of Horse Archers on them. As they persue one group of Archers, the other will keep peppering them.....but eventually they'll probably catch one of them and those poor Horse Archers will be out-matched rather quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by putts

Problem is that they don't stay just in range that long......they charge rather quickly and tend to rip through my front lines just as fast.

I suppose you could sick 2 groups of Horse Archers on them. As they persue one group of Archers, the other will keep peppering them.....but eventually they'll probably catch one of them and those poor Horse Archers will be out-matched rather quickly.

---

Ah, but thats why you should use my missile stats. :whip:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=99825

However, as previously stated in this post - shoot the javs with your archers. It might feel as a waste of missiles, but you'd rather have a solid core for the coming charge than a lot of missiles left. Keep your core solid and chew down the flanks. :yes:

Peace

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by putts

I suppose you could sick 2 groups of Horse Archers on them. As they persue one group of Archers, the other will keep peppering them.....but eventually they'll probably catch one of them and those poor Horse Archers will be out-matched rather quickly.

---

I have repeatedly had the same experience. Against heavy cav, the HA sandwich just isn't strong enough. And to add insult to injury (or is it the other way round - english is my fourth language) the AI also always flank my main army while I micromanage the HA's...

/KotR

Bashkorts (like said before): outrange (they have little armour so they should go down fast), isolate, flank.

Cuman Royal cav: This is easily one of the best units in early. The only solution that I know are fast HA's. Lure the CRC away from the main battle line, exhaust and deplete them. It doesn't matter if they eventually catch up with your HA unit(s) as long as they aren't capable anymore to turn the tide of the battle to their side.

Against heavy can in early i usually use a unit of spears and l.cav/ha's.

attack the heavy cav with the l.cav and then retreat into the spears, the heavies get caught up in the unit and you can either flank or just leave them to tire themselves out.

:2thumbsup:

I know Bashkorts very well, as they formed the backbone of my VB army. things you should know about Bashkorts:

1. They are a polearm unit, so they get +3 Atk and +1 Def against cav.
2. They have weak close combat stats compared to melee units (1 atk, 2 def)
3. They have a shield, but basically no armour so regular arrows will hurt them.
4. Anything getting into melee range will take losses from their javelins, as you found out.
5. They are Fast.

Best way to neutralise them is with Ranged fire. Long range options like Arbalesters are a great idea, but Horse Archers will also do fine. As soon as the enemy heavy cavalry starts coming after your HA's, run them back to your line and send some spears to engage the enemy cav. if they turn and go back to their lines, have the HA's fire off a volley or two at their backs.

With Arb's, just set up camp near the enemy, them march your arb's out in front and start picking them off.

If you have to engage them hand to hand, advance at the charge in loose formation to minimise your losses then go into close when you get into melee range. If you're on defense, go into the woods, jav's a re basically useless there and your infantry will tear them apart.

Once they have used their Javelins up, they are just a bunch of weak Halbardiers. I love Bashkorts, but they have some serious flaws. weakness to ranged fire is one of them.

To kill cav make sure you have a pointy stick or two.

To deal with the javs you can also exploit the AI's ill-advised strategy of setting them to skirmish. Charge a horse archer or another light horse such as steppe cav close to them in loose formation and they turn tail. These disruptions can keep them from launching their projectiles effectively, but requires micromanagement and must be paired with archers (arbs hopefully) to do the actual killing.
Alternatively, you can rush your melee (spear and swords) line at the bashkorts and they, again, will try to retreat to their firing range. Your guys should hit their guys in the back. You'll need fast infantry, though, or some horses to "herd" them closer to your lines. The point is, if the javs are on the move, they are not firing.
AI javs pose much less of a threat when the AI uses them in defense since they tend to let them just sit there for your bows to pick apart. So maybe the strategy for you is to take the battle to the enemy.

As for the enemy's heavy cav, if I may echo what others have already said, mounted bows can whittle these bad boys down to manageable size.
You might consider mounting an all-horse army against this Cuman heavy/bashkort enemy. Then you can easily keep away from both javelin and lance and fight on your terms.