Cavalry / Spearman changes

I recently mod'ed in some changes to adjust under-powered cavalry vs over-powered spearmen.

Seeing chivalric knights charge into a group of spear militia and kill 10 or so before routing is a bit much. Spears were your best bet against a cavalry charge, that is true. However, they were not a brick wall, and unless the men using them were hard core veterans, they at best evened the odds against a cavalry charge. This arguement was made a million times after the cav nerf (which was needed) so I wont go into it again.

I tinkered around and looked for a fix that would make me happy. I wanted cav to at least give as well as it got in a charge vs spears, but to lose in a drawn out fight with good ones (armored sgts, italian spears, most moorish spears, etc). I also wanted pikes to be the premiere and cavalry force so I boosted them.

Soooo what i did was lowered the spear bonus for spearmen and increased the charge bonus on all cavalry.

Spears were given a bonus of 4 or 2 depending on their quality. However in an attempt to help out the spearmans poor brother, I increased all pike bonuses to 12.

Cavalry charge bonuses were increased greatly. Most were given their current score+10. Top line cavalry using western style lances (Polish Guard, Fam Ducal, Gothics etc) were increased to 20. Lancers were given the top charge of 25.

Now before anyone goes bananas, let me explain the outcome. Even the best cav will lose one vs one to armored sgts, latuma spearmen, italian spears, etc if they attack from the front *and then stay*. The top cav can sometimes beat them if they charge and run and charge again and again. They will take heavy loses... most of the time 75%+. The vast amount of casualties will occur from the charge.

The big diffrence can be seen vs lower quality spears, non-spears and other cavalry. I can now charge my Royal Banderum straight into a group of Byzantium Infantry or Town Militia and crush them whith a charge. I can have my Gothic Knights slaughter dismounted fuedal knights who were unlucky enough to get caught in the open. I can plow my Latikon down the throat of those pesky Italian Spear militia, take a lot of causualties (the latikon are unwashed franks anyway... the Emperor can do without a few) but still drive the spearmen from the field. Finally, I can charge a group of engaged cavalry from the flank or rear and see massive casualties to the enemy horseman.

What I can't do is allow my cav to get bogged down in a prolonged fight with infantry. They need to charge and disengage if they wish to rule the field. Also, I must be wary of pikemen who dispatch my horsemen from beyond the reach of the lance.

Basically what the changes did for me for me was this: They made cavalry very, very deadly when charging. They stopped spears from being a "death ray" that instantly killed any horseman they touched with out taking away their anti-cav role. They made pikes into a death sentence for anyone dumb enough to engage them with cav.

Spearmen arent invincible to Cav charges with the latest version of the game. Only when they are stationary and not moving do they get a solid bonus against cavalry. If you catch them moving and hit them they will get punished severely.

I think cavalry are fairly good already. I see them utterly destroy swordsmen on a charge, but fail against spearmen, just like it should be.

Why are you charging your knights directly into a wall of spears to begin with? The whole purpose of long spears is to counter cavalry charges, and your complaint seems to be that it actually works.

Are you certain that you are charging correctly? I did a little experiment of Teutonic (basically the same as Chivalric) knights charging straight into a wall of braced Spear Militia and then fighting melee until the unit routed. Neither unit had the general in it, in order to prevent his death from triggering a rout. When I did the charge correctly 12 knights and 50 militia died on impact. 2 more knights died before the militia routed.

Then I restarted the battle and charge the knights but had them turn around before making contact, then ordered them to charge again. This resulted in an incorrect charge where the knights did not have their lances down and fought only with swords. 36 knights died before the militia routed - not a good result.

I am fairly happy with the way the game handles charges, but the "problem" with charges is the simplistic mechanics of the way it is represented in the game. Namely, both the chargers and spears either die or they do not. There is no representation of chargers falling off their horses but continuing to fight on foot, or spears being knocked over by the horse but not seriously injured (like the way elephants or RTW chariots knock men over but don't kill them) which are things that would certainly happen in a more realistic system.

I think he was using Lusted's rebalance most likely as I cannot think of another way cavalry would get stopped dead in their charge by spears.

Just use vanilla balance or use your own or even use mine. There's a large choice of unit rebalancing mods. :grin:

But in History, such as the battle of Hastings, horses wouldn't even try to breach a shield wall of spears, they just trop along circling the outside, so i dont see why they should be able to completely wipe out a spear wall. I dont see how a better knight could influence the way his horse feels or its strength.

Another Shameless plug:
IMO the balance of spears and cav seems to be best in the Broken Crescent mod, which I believe uses GrandViz's Ultimate AI. Edit: it has nothing to do with the AI. The mods own unit balancing is the result of the improved gameplay - Galain

From what I have experienced ingame (still on topic with BC), Light/Missle Cav has no chance against a Spear Wall :skull: , which I think is just fine. Heavy cav will take a beating but will prevail in a prolonged fight. The General Bodyguard units seem to annihilate spears even, though still not advisable for your best General :no: .

Its a result of this beautiful mod that I am finally beginning to become a fan of Cavalry. :2thumbsup:

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On second thoughts I think I read somewhere that Lusted used it too in the latest LTC. (Anyone can freely correct me on that one though.)

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LTC uses it's own AI made by me. And I'm not quite sure how the AI would affect the spearmen v cavalry balancing.

On History Channel International a couple of years ago was series on Medieval times, basicly in England as it was produced by the BBC. In one episode, they tried to ride a horse into what looked like a schiltrom. No matter how many times and how hard, the horse would get close and turn. That horse refused to commit suicide. If I remember right, Wellington used something like this to stop Napoleon's shock cavalry at Waterloo.

The reasoning behind this is to make heavy cavalry the masters of the battlefield except against dedicated hard core spears.

My problem is that spearmen in M2TW seems to be effective vs cav in the extreme. Instead of being the lowly spearman armed with spear because it is cheap to produce and take little training, nearly every spearman is a crack spear commando, a throwback to noble hoplites.

The problem is that the vast majority of units in the ai army tend to be spears. This is somewhat realistic however not everyone with a pointy stick is a hardened vet that will stand there in formation with their spear set. The vast majority would be a bit less elite. Even the best would have had a hard time against advanced heavy cavalry as they had only one hand to wield that spear. In fact the inadequecy of the spear against advanced cavalry is the reason that spears continued to grow until the acendency for the pikeman as the ultimate anti-cav troop.

The spear is often said to allow a reach advantage to the wielder, but considering that the average spear of this time is about 6 feet long, that it is held in one hand and therefore loses at least 1/3 of its length behind the grip, it doesnt give that great of reach advantage. The pike is 2-3x longer than this. Its extreme reach provided offense in the form of "first strike" and allowed the ranks behind you to strike as well. The reach also provided defense; as the enemies had to get past that hedge of spikes in order to hurt you. That allowed the pikeman to hold his weapon with both hands as he is unencumbered by a shield. So you ended up with a mass of pionts sticking out with each man bracing with both hands. This should be a death sentence to any who charge it.

As for heavy cavalry, they should be the pinnacle of medieval warfare. Everything should be built around that. Strategies and tactics should be based on neutralizing or mitigationg this incredibly dangerous threat. This may cause a problem for the paper-rocks-scissors relationship of the game, but it is much more realistic. After all, There was a reason that lords and knights pent all that time training and all the coin to equip themselves. Heavy cavalry should be the ultimate beast of the battle.

Historically, it is hard to find true examples of SPEARS (not pikes, stakes or arrows) leading to definitive dominance over cavalry. Bannockburn? Pikes. Laupen? Pikes. Crecy, Agincourt? Stakes, but more so mud and arrows. Legnano? The spearmen were actually losing against the Emperor's cavalry until the Lombard cavalry rallied and hit the germans from behind.

<<As for Hastings, the cavalry there was at best medium cavalry composed mostly of free lancers(mailed knights in game terms), not a dedicated unit of heavy cavalry charging knee to knee with armored horse. Additionally the saxon shield-wall with huscarls and spearmen was the elite of the saxon forces... and they were arrayed at the top of a rise so the horses had to charge uphill. Regardless, even with my changes, on level ground, Mailed Knights, Norman Knights and other period cav would get destroyed vs sgts backed by norse axemen (best equivalent to a saxon huscarl). Also horses will indeed charge spears, even phalanxes, as Alexander and Frederich Barbarosa can attest.>>

I agree with most of your speech, but the cavalry werent mailed knights they were mercenary frankish knights :book:, and also i don believe the spears were elite, as they were picked up along the way to fight Harold Haradrada, and then they had to march back down so they would have been exhausted, also the main part of the army of Harolds was actually axemen and men with clubs, so they would have probably have been heavy infantry. Also when you mentioned nobles training all of the time, i do believe that William was duke of the northern part of France, so he and his body guards would have been decent knights...

I actually liked the vanilla 1.2 bigger unit size lot better, it actually was a threat now 45 knights charge i lose 6-8 to arrows my knights kill 10 spear/heav inf. on impact while losing 8-10 on impact and my cav has to pull back and recharge? In your dreams: by the time i pulled a little away the archers are on me again and i am down to 20 men re-charging for the last time before the unit is gone: not even worth the bother bringing heavy cav to the fight anymore. They should have 2 separate balances one for PvP one forMP to make everyone happy. I am actually not liking the retrofit/1.3 MP balance at all it boosts some factions (notably germany) while it nerfs others (ex:turkey-i f you don't believe me have look at ottoman infantry).

Ottoman Infantry are hardy soldiers, well armed and well armoured, they fight with both bows and swords, allowing them to pepper the enemy with arrows and then move into melee to finish them off. Their armour, and training in combat, means that this unit can hold its ground in a close up fight

1.2 stats
Armour 5 Defence Skill 6 Shield 6 = 17
Now
Armour 3 Defence Skill 2 Shield 8 = 13

This used to be my main infantry unit totally useless now in close combat

Pull the Cavalry out of melee with archers, are you nuts???? just let them finish them off. I ignore the computers advice to keep charging, one charge does the job, and you could always flank them so they arent directly threatened.

Heavy cavalry is not for flanking, the only thing that can/should stop a heavy cav head on charge is a pike formation: at this moment my cav does not even penetrate a 4 fank formation od knights i.e. something is wrong

This is a game, it is based on simple mathematical calculations instead of the infinite variability of the real world.

As you play more and more, you gain experience as to what works and what doesn't. Without even thinking, you begin to recognize those key moments when your light cav can absolutely destroy an enemy general, or when you should commit all your horse archers to a charge, or when your foot archers need to be commited to the melee to pull a victory out of nothing. After all, those really close battles are the ones that are the most fun:beam:

I refuse to believe that a unit of elite knights can not dispach a unit of spear militia head on game or not

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Originally Posted by Lusted

LTC uses it's own AI made by me.

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Point taken, I will remove from my OP.

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Originally Posted by Lusted

And I'm not quite sure how the AI would affect the spearmen v cavalry balancing.

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Looking back,I guess what I was trying to say was that the unit balancing seems totally different in BC (which GrandViz had a hand in it) to every thing else. But you are right in suggesting that it has nothing to do with the AI. My mistake. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by ReiseReise

This is a game, it is based on simple mathematical calculations instead of the infinite variability of the real world.

As you play more and more, you gain experience as to what works and what doesn't. Without even thinking, you begin to recognize those key moments when your light cav can absolutely destroy an enemy general, or when you should commit all your horse archers to a charge, or when your foot archers need to be commited to the melee to pull a victory out of nothing. After all, those really close battles are the ones that are the most fun

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Couldn't agree more.

Pikemen/spearmen work pretty much as advertised for me in MTW2 as do the calvary, which although less powerful are still quite effective. Spearmen rely on their formation to break a cav charge and so long as they are in good formation usually do from the front. A rear attack pretty much destroys the formation, so the unit fails. Since this is what would happen in "real life"... I dont see the problem. The formation of a unit is everything, if a spear unit is 4+ ranks deep and facing dead on a cav charge that wont encircle that unit (ie its in the front line) then it will (99%)hold. Like Reise said as well, it depends also on the action the cav took to attack the spear unit to begin with.

Heavy cav have always been slightly more useful than light for me because they die slower. The speed difference is offset by more dmg. I usually dont chase cav around so I dont often build light. During a campaign Ill take w/e cav comes by and use em and obviously train what I can but light cav gets phased out pretty quick. (Unless your a cav faction I suppose) Hell 1/2 the time my "cav" is a sordid mix of HA of some sort,mercs,light cav/heavy cav and officer... they all have horses, can chase archers around and chase down routs thats all Ive ever asked my cav to do in MTW and MTW2... oh and die like flies for the cause of course :skull:

A final thought: I do not see why youd want to charge cav head on into any unit/formation that you could possibly flank. Even if I have an all cav army (pretty much nevr) Id just as soon sacrifice 1 of em so I can flank with the rest.

On one of my campaigns, i have seen a unit of Mailed knights tear apart a unit of spearmen. I think my spearmen lost 60 soldiers, the knights lost about 5 i think. I tried this again and put themm in skiltrom, and about 5 spearmen died to the 10 knights that died.

If cavalry (light or heavy) were to be made any more powerful, the game would lose any challenge for me. I like to feign a charge and flank spears. I don't have any problem with having to charge frontally a spear unit a couple of times before it breaks. How many ranks should cavalry be able to destroy in 3 seconds? Five? Ten? It is already ridiculous that my cavalry just charges straight at crossbowmen and archers who never get shot off and inflict no casualties before they are all killed or routed. I just did this with mailed knights against Hussite crossbowmen (how more elite can you get?) last night with not one casualty! What could be more ridiculous? Maybe pixie dust on the horses so they can fly over walls would be cool, eh?

Cavalry are ridiculously overpowered in M2TW, but only when charging. In the original M2TW cavalry would often not charge correctly, and then get minced once they walked into a melee. But since the various patches cavalry now charge as they were designed to, and do far too much damage as a result. Charge Feudal Knights into their dismounted counterparts and you will see the number of the foot version go from 120-60 in a few seconds, usually followed by a quick rout.

Spearmen are completely useless at blocking cavalry charges. They do not take any less damage than other footmen. Their +8 bonus is purely for attack, which means they may kill a couple more horsemen when they charge, that is all. Even in shiltrom formation spears take a battering from cavalry, although they usually overcome them if they can keep them bogged down.

Pikes are the only unit capable of stopping a cavalry charge. They will slaughter cavalry who charge straight into them. Unfortunately, while cavalry usually lose when bogged down, the stupid pikemen take out their swords and get beaten by the cavalry in the melee.

There is no way cavalry are underpowered. Cavalry may have dominated early medieval battles, but it was through their morale effect, not by causing 50% casualties in a few seconds. I wish charges had a morale effect similar to that of gunpowder units...

A great way to stop cavalry is to keep a unit of pikemen with a unit of 2-handers mixed in with them. Pikes halt the charge, then 2-handers rush out.:charge: = :skull:

On my game, i do not believe that cavalry are overpowering, as i have seen them hacked to pieces by a few crossbowmen. Also my men will withstand a cavalry attack, as they may lose some men on the charge, but atleast they can counter it when they pwn the cavalry in close combat.

There are some early examples of spearmen defeating cavalry

(all of these are shamelessly stolen from google..)

Greek Hopelites 500 BC
Zeng? 1100 AD
Courtai 1302 AD
Stirling 1314

I dont see how spearmen are "useless" at stopping a cav charge... as long as they are in their correct formation 4+ ranks ..they do just fine for me. If its just a militia unit... I dont personally care if they all die so long as they take the cav with them.

Once again it has to do with formation and how/where your unit is deployed that affects the sucess of the unit. If a militia spear is supposed to be your defensive flank in a cav charge you may have some issues...take that same unit mix it in the front line and replace the flank side with a sword unit .....suddenly everything seems to works better.

If your pikemen are engaged minimally select the stop action and put them on run. If possible they will try to reform into spearwall again.Same as with archers defending a wall...they will remain on melee once engaged until u change their action. 1/2 the battle for me is getting position on the opponent once that is done, victory usually follows.