An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Flying Pig
Being a keen dealer of seaborne death in every other strategy game I have and having learned the art of conclusively beating the AI in anywhere remotely wet, I was expecting to be able to do the same in RTW. However, for some bizzare reason CA did not develop naval combat (the ship models exist, try fighting a battle on a beach when there is a fleet present just off shore) but I still have gleaned some knowledge of how to use ships. This, then, is the compilation of it.
Ships
I divide ships into classes which define their use: transports, lineships and flagships
Transports is a class of small ships which consists of the barbarian boats and everyone else's biremes. These are so called because the best use I have so far found for them is moving small armies or raiding parties across the sea, because they are not too expensive yet apart from during the very early game they are too weak for heavy duty on the frontline. This makes them expendable things that are ideally suited to bear 400 saxon pirates to Britannia but not tough enough to take on the powerful pirate fleets (themselves composed of transport-class vessels) and their skilled admirals without large numbers, which is the other good use for them, although it is expensive to buy and maintain a stack of 20 biremes. It can be useful to buy up large stacks of these, but beware of compound trireme fleets! One other useful trick with transports is to make them into a bridge and just march across it (although in doing so you resign yourself to needing three ships where maybe one would suffice)
Lineships are the ships one most commonly sees in battle. They are the triremes or large boats that can be built at a level 2 port. As these are affordable but not cheap and can expect to be confronted by an equal adversary in battle, they should never travel alone (that goes for transports as well). Stacks of four can be used as 'pirate fleets' attacking small fleets or unguarded transports/lineships and blockading docks. A main battlefleet is essential and should be at least half composed of these workhorses, particularly if sailing around south Greece where Roman, Greek, Macedonian, Pontic, Seleucid and Egyptian navies will often be at the same time.
Flagships are Quinqueremes, Corvus Quinqueremes and Deceres. only Roman factions can build the Quinquereme and only the Scipii can make anything better by constructing the Temples of Neptune. These are really expensive ships that can operate alone if urgently neccessary, although they are a prize target for a collection of fleets being employed by an enemy coalition and their loss is devastating to your battlefleet. Pirate patrols of these can operate very far from base due to their immense resilience which makes them unlikely to need reparing after a few engagements. They are probably best kept to your main fleet to give it armour and a superior edge against all comes, including massive combined fleets. Use them also for high-priority transport missions: prehaps the 10-star assassin that was trained in Italy but needed in Armenia, the diplomatic embassy to Alexandria or the legion under the command of the Consul that makes for Jerusalem.
Admirals
A good admiral for your navy is essential. Admirals can get up to very high levels but because you cannot command naval battles they find gaining stars very difficult. This is my method of training admirals:
1. Get a stack of two biremes (you should have one at the start anyway) and a rookie admiral
2. Send it to fight the enemy. Seeing as they have only got stacks of two at the start, you can blockade ports and chase down their version of patrols easily. You may find that using a stronger navy makes the computer decide that the battles are 'easy' and so he will never go anywhere. There is one notable advantage to this: that if you lose crushingly you may get an ancillary which actually improves your commander's abilities.
3. Send it for refits regularly! It is possible to have an awful turn at sea and be thrown around and destroyed utterly by enemies and pirates (I lost a delegation of 5 diplomats, all above 7 stars, and two deceres that way) and so you need to be prepared. It is very rare to be wiped out in one battle and so you can scurry off to safety and get back to full strength while your ships wil probably have sailors made veteran by the ordeal. Obviously, stronger fleets need fewer refits.
Basic Tactics
It is difficult to actually define how to use ships on the stratmap but here goes: Navies can fulfil one of three roles: Transport, Piracy and Direct Warfare. Each level requires progressively better navies to be successful.
Transport ships are straightforward; sail your ship loaded with men up to a shore and kill any landlubber in your path. Needless to say this also involves picking good sea routes and sometimes, for example to get through conquered Greece from Italy, sailing to one shore, disembarking, and marching to a nearby port where another fleet is waiting just to get around the perilous southern Greek sea.
Piracy is just blockading docks and ambushing convoys. When attacking fleets, look at all of the visible groups for armies or agents on board as a diplomatic embassy or a mighty army is more of a prize than a sunken bireme. Be aware also that you can attack ships to re-direct them so if you know an army is headed for your territory by means of the sea then get between the two and make it change course! Blocading docks is also a good way to pressure a state into surrender, as it starves their trade, though not as good as a seige which starves ALL trade.
Direct Warfare is unsubtle and the only things to think about are your targets (armies or good fleets) and attacking gulfs. If you can force your enemy into a gulf and block the entrance, he will be destroyed if he loses a fight. The best gulfs are the Korinthian Gulf (incidentaly, the only way out of Corinth to the Macedonians...) and the Gulf of Actium if you are preventing invasions of Italy.
Control of Seas
This is a matter of controlling points and of keeping a network. For example, to keep sicilia free from enemies just keep a good navy in each port. That way, you can hit anywhere within a turn's sail of the island while refitting easily. Other points are the Bosphorous, as holding it completely destroys Armenian seapower, Cyprus, Crete and Mallorca as the last two islands are small enough to defennd with one stack while Cyprus is close enough to Antioch to allow a land-based army to hold it and keep a fleet in dock as backup to the Cyprus main battlefleet. Pirates are impossible to really supress but KILL THEM QUICK! They can get very experienced very qouckly due to the fact that the kill anyone and even two pirate ships look scary with a 5-star admiral and 9 exp apiece
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Flying Pig
Being a keen dealer of seaborne death in every other strategy game I have and having learned the art of conclusively beating the AI in anywhere remotely wet, I was expecting to be able to do the same in RTW. However, for some bizzare reason CA did not develop naval combat (the ship models exist, try fighting a battle on a beach when there is a fleet present just off shore) but I still have gleaned some knowledge of how to use ships. This, then, is the compilation of it.
Interesting post. What game would you recommend for learning and understanding naval battle strategy? I've enjoyed RTW land battles combined with study of the military history, as despite the limitations and annoyances, the model generally succeeds well enough. I find the Strategy map element, fun but much less convincing, the AI seems much weaker than in an old game lke Civ II.
Anyway here's some questions and thoughts of mine on this side of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
Ships
I divide ships into classes which define their use: transports, lineships and flagships
Can I ask why? Though the notes say "Bireme outclassed by speed & weight of trireme", and comparing stats I see :
Soldiers: 40 60
Upkeep: 100 150
Cost: 660 760
Attack: 6 8
Charge: 1 1
Defense: 7 8
Armor: 2 3
D. Skill: 5 5
So from upkeep point of view, you get 3 biremes for 2 tri-remes. 18 v 16, and 21 v 16, with soliders at 120 v 120.
From that, it seems that in the game, it's rather effective to gain control of a sea using weight of numbers, for instance wearing down strong pirate fleets, who don't benefit from re-training. If you wait to build a large superior fleet to win the 1st battle, they are more likely to blockade ports causing economic damange, and you end up with an over-size navy, which is a drag on the economy; or spend too long moving ships strategically. There's also a small but significant chance of suffering a crushing defeat despite all that patient preperation and a decent force advantage, which wrecks a big fleet as thoroughly as smaller expendable ones.
From Recruitment cost, the numbers are in favour of the higher level ships, so I tend to build the best ship I can get. The Bi-remes then get sent to backward areas (like the Atlantic Gaul provinces), lacking higher level ports, to wrest control from pirates, and blockade enemy harbours.
From battle results I've had, generally on H/H they're mostly in line with the Attack/Defense stats according to numbers, with any "outclassing" being remediated by having more Rams which may sink opponents (more decisive than attrition).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
Admirals
A good admiral for your navy is essential. Admirals can get up to very high levels but because you cannot command naval battles they find gaining stars very difficult. This is my method of training admirals:
1. Get a stack of two biremes (you should have one at the start anyway) and a rookie admiral
2. Send it to fight the enemy.
As Jullii, I've had good results sending army out to besiege Massilia 1st turn, and building a 3rd bireme, to carry 2nd turn, Quintus family member and velites (that capture & garrison Segesta first turn), plus Massilia garrison townwatch.
The fleet can try to find some rebels, with a 3:2 advantage (may be 3:1) and get that first *. Problem (advantage?) generally is the rebels seem to not spawn, unless you're weak and an attack would inconvenience you. So the *'s tend to be gained, picking off Carthagian singletons (often carrying armies) a little later on in game, when taking Caralis with newly recruited Hastati.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
3. Send it for refits regularly! It is possible to have an awful turn at sea and be thrown around and destroyed utterly
Agreed.
That's another argument for using lots of low quality types that can retrain in basic ports, not risking lone desperation voyages to re-fit at homebase. I think there's a manning level, where it's better to combine the ships, they seem to lose effectiveness non-linearly. Having more lower quality ships, also make that simpler, whilst preserving the chevrons. Re-training regularly avoids diluting the veterans too much, I suspect a double chevron bireme is stronger than a fresh trireme, with 2/3 the upkeep presuming simple +1's on stats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
Basic Tactics
It is difficult to actually define how to use ships on the stratmap but here goes: Navies can fulfil one of three roles: Transport, Piracy and Direct Warfare. Each level requires progressively better navies to be successful.
Do you agree that it's a slight advantage to be the aggressor in the battle?
Attacking Maneuver to battle, reiforcements next to target. Then attack with main force. Other fleets who become in range of fleeing enemy, appear to gain some advantage, so should attack somewhat more aggressively than normal.
Avoiding strong opposition by standing off. The section should say something about staying out of the movement area of aggressive enemy. In the western med, I've been able to lure strong pirate fleets who give chase, falling back on a re-inforcing fleet. That can then give battle earlier, and move back to it's "station" sooner, than if your outclassed boats run to port and try to build your way to superiority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
Transport ships are straightforward; sail your ship loaded with men up to a shore and kill any landlubber in your path.
Hmmm. If you transport an army, then I like to use a screening fleet, which can then move less if there may be opposition (stands off port, moves first into unknown area). It may have to fight, and by clarifying things you can adjust the movements so the transports are supported by the battle fleet. You have to avoid the zone of control of all other fleets, or you get stalled, sometimes in very poor positions. Nasty surprises can then be avoided and the valuable land units, are less likely to be caught and destroyed at sea, in a series of battle.
After embarking troops try selecting the boats directly to gain the maximum movement, after boarding by land-lubbing units. They may be able to siege a turn earlier, or at least move further on next turn, than if you move the ship and then have them disembark. Some may regard that as an exploit, as the lazy way reduces fleet movement for some reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
Piracy is just blockading docks and ambushing convoys. When attacking fleets, look at all of the visible groups for armies or agents on board as a diplomatic embassy or a mighty army is more of a prize than a sunken bireme. Be aware also that you can attack ships to re-direct them so if you know an army is headed for your territory by means of the sea then get between the two and make it change course! Blockading docks is also a good way to pressure a state into surrender, as it starves their trade, though not as good as a seige which starves ALL trade.
Often 1 low quality ship suffices for a blockade, with larger part of fleet in role of gaining control of sea by attacking enemy. Standing off nearby gains a little movement, and may delay enemy relieving attack on the blockading ship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
Direct Warfare is unsubtle and the only things to think about are your targets (armies or good fleets) and attacking gulfs.
I suspect there's an advantage to numbers of rammers, as the more there are, the more likely you seem to have a chance to devastate opponent vessel man-power, rather than slowly weaken them by attrition. Not sure about that so wonder what others have found.
Also losing battle may not be a bad thing, I've had some tasty retainers (+2 morale), after defeats. I don't think there's a way of transferring them to family members though, to benefit land battles.
Control of Seas - Probably should have a section
When main battle fleet moves on, some kind of patrolling force, appears to suppress rebel pirates, who I've had miraculously spawn in empty seas despite the lack of rebel held ports.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
A few answers:
I learned sailing tactics on a few games, the best being one which I do not remember the name of but it was something to do with Trafalgar.
I do classes so that the guide is easier to apply to different factions and to make matching up each lot easier. Also, they are defined by the use that each ship, in my opinion, is best for.
What I have put in so far is basic tactics. That means screening, networking, naval blitzkrieg etc are not covered YET. I'm still researching more tactics to use
Your biremes argument sounds suspiciously like the one I saw put forward which said that Romans shold build a militia barracks in every settlement and no higher, then spam histati. Yes it works, but it feels 'cheesy'.
Blockading does work for a few turns with 1 transport, but to sustain it over a long period of time against that tricky alliance that always seems to come up between Greece and Macedon needs a fleet that can sit and sustain damage and at the very least you need two so that you can take one out of the main fleet to restore its damage at an allied port.
Also, if you look in descr_strat pirates have a spawn rate which means that they do not actually need a port to recruit like brigands do not need a relevant barracks.
The attacker has, I think, the same bonuses as a charger would have on land. Also, you can manoever fleets from out of sight into battle, so the strategy is easier to set up by sea.
Although you don't actually need a huge battlefleet, it is alwaysnice to have a floating entity that cannot be beaten by anything concievable and so is able to get you out of really deep water.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
the best being one which I do not remember the name of but it was something to do with Trafalgar.
Obviously you've played a lot of Naval games... It's something I'd like to understand better, so hoped for a recommendation for something to look out for.
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I do classes so that the guide is easier to apply to different factions and to make matching up each lot easier. Also, they are defined by the use that each ship, in my opinion, is best for.
OK, I understand why some kind of classes make sense, but not why these roles matter, when in the game any ship can do either.
What matters is concentration of force, at the decisive points; and fulfilling the Naval tasks, Blockade, Transport, Trade Protection and Denial of Sea movement to Enemy (control of seas). I don't see higher level strategies like "fleet in being" just tying down opposition forces as a counter to a strategic threat being applicable. The RTW AI is just far too simplistic and only sees the obvious. This AI failing means, deterrents do not deter, and potential does not get responded to, so you must only prepare what you can deploy.
During a transport mission, the role of ship is not to get involved in battle, except if great advantage of force is held and clearing the route is necessary to complete the mission, or the prize justifies taking the risks. Then it becomes clear the usefulness of screen fleets, and why you wouldn't always just move 1 huge stack. Other times a fleet's mission is to trap and destroy, or repulse a suspected troop carrier to prevent an inconvenient invasion.
On the blockade, if I have control of the sea, which is the battle fleets purpose to maintain, then it's a judgement call whether 1 ship will do or not. Frequently I am highly confident 1 suffices, in which case the principal of "Economy of Force" applies, and I look for candidate missions for fleet, leaving Blockade to a small detachment (most often 1, 2 or 3 bi-remes).
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What I have put in so far is basic tactics. That means screening, networking, naval blitzkrieg etc are not covered YET. I'm still researching more tactics to use
I added some suggestions to help the guide :laugh4:
Please don't take feedback as criticism but enthusiastic assistance.
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Your biremes argument sounds suspiciously like the one I saw put forward which said that Romans shold build a militia barracks in every settlement and no higher, then spam histati. Yes it works, but it feels 'cheesy'.
So just dismiss numbers, and reasoning and go with emotional gut feel. RTW is not exactly a well thought out strategic game, even before you get to Naval strategies. A combined force, not just Hastati is superior for land battle, and I suspect a mixed fleet offers flexibility and economy (why use a Quinquireme when a bireme suffices?).
There's no advantage in disbanding old ship types in RTW, unless you've massively over-built your fleet.
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Also, if you look in descr_strat pirates have a spawn rate which means that they do not actually need a port to recruit like brigands do not need a relevant barracks.
I was shipping some troops in my Adriatic lake. To my surprise a 3x50 or so Pirate fleet popped up, with 2 star Admiral. Behind an Island, I carelessy let the auto-pathfind move into trouble out of line of sight.
Bang, no more movent and 2 Biremes were going to get attacked. Rather than go to port they flee in direction I wanted to go in. That allowed me to be "chased" and build 2 Triremes and move back 2 other ships, that were more in the "action areas". Furthermore I could retrain, having my ship sit in port. So I had 2 beaten up bi-remes in view, but next turn on my attack suddenly I have a superior fleet attacking from 3 directions.
Note that it's the "cheesy" Bi-reme which takes the scalp to sink. Also note the losses mean the ship already needs to re-fit.
Pre-Battle : https://img338.imageshack.us/img338/...rcedvj6.th.png
Results : https://img401.imageshack.us/img401/...dresrd0.th.png
Statistics : https://img160.imageshack.us/img160/...statjq8.th.png
For me the classes of ship, have more to do with Effective range, and Staying Power in hostile territory. No point in sending flimsy biremes a long way and have them need to return back for re-fit after just 1 battle.
So I think the stamina, is the key for better class of ships, if you transport a long way with a bireme, you need to think carefully about screening forces and protection. The Bi-remes are perfectly adequete in larger numbers around your basic ports, to transport, blockade or fight.
The suggestion of regular re-fitting back to strength is impractical if you only have 1 Quinquireme dockyard and it is in the mediteraneum and you are using the big ship on the Atlantic coast off Gaul. Rolls-Royce ships won't be effective as they'll take too long to get to/from the action, where more basic ones can refit near the hotspot.
Range of operation, is in my opinion a better way of classing boats. After all very respectable navies, kind of organised in inshore fleet, blue water etc
When there's easy access to Shipyards then it becomes natural to use Tri-remes, due to the greater recruitment money value. Yet I have a sneeking suspicion that the Upkeep value argues for Bi-reme.
Hence my past strategy of sending biremes out of med, and off to backward shores like Gaul & Britain, where they were effective (yes it's a failing in the game, that they operate effectively in the Atlantic, but as they do....)
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Sorry, I didn't intend to look touchy, but the thing is still WIP. Hmmm... Games I like for naval strategy - Probably Age of Mythology because some ships must counter others and so spamming light vessels does not work. I also liked another one, American Conquest, because a fleet of small boats can with skill destroy a fleet of large boats but NOT a mixed fleet of the same size.
I disagree totally when you say that any ship can do anything. While a decere physically can ship your raiders and a bireme can charge head-on into a massive fight, the decere is obviously wasted and the Bireme is looking to be in deep do-do. I defined the classes mostly on 'structural' stamina but also cost-effectiveness and manpower
I think you may have forgotten the massive clutter of the mediterranian and so 'every ship as a bireme' leaves you outclassed when the Greek culture unites (it generally does to a degree) and sends coalition fleets of 40 triremes. Then you wish you had a quinquereme! And on disbanding navies, if a fleet is redundant then it can be a huge liability, particularly for the WRE in BI where dsbanding almost all their fleets makes them a lot better off for no real loss of power. Have I misinterpreted you comment about the bireme swamp? If so correct me.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Laudable initiative and interesting thoughts and comments! I play on VH (strat map)/H (battlefield) but I guess only srat map difficulty applies to naval battles. In my experience an overwhelming superiority is necessary to win a naval engagement, e.g. 3:1 to my favor is a lost cause. I guess it is the difficulty level? I am surprised to hear that at H/H you can rely on the strength ratio of pre-battle screen. Have you tried naval battles at VH? Or have I missed something?
I think that you need to be very clear whether you intend to provide a RPG style of guide - focusing on what fleets should do in an ideal game, rather than what is useful to do in the game as it is- or a guide that helps a novice player. If the latter you should not dismiss a strategy simply because it feels "cheesy" - let the players decide themselves! (you could point it out, though, that it is cheesy in your opinion). It would be also useful if you listed the stats and requirements for each boat in the game and described in more detail "illogical" aspects of the game, such as where and when the pirates spawn and to what direction fleets "run". It is a lot of work, I know, but then the guide would be much more useful than it is now.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Pig
I disagree totally when you say that any ship can do anything.
But it's a fact they can. Early in the game, biremes are perfectly capable, and the only option for the Roman factions. Numbers can make up for ship strength in the RTW battles. Frankly if the Greeks are capable of putting together 40 unit double-stack fleets, then you're either doing something wrong, or you're at an advanced year and playing a non-Roman faction who's just moved into the area.
What fleet you can best put out, is dependant on how good the ports are you have, and what's in your unit tree, what the purpose of the build is, and where the ship is intended to operate.
The guide probably would also benefit, from 2nd class naval strategy; and what the Dominant navy should do, against divided 2nd class navies.
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While a decere physically can ship your raiders and a bireme can charge head-on into a massive fight, the decere is obviously wasted and the Bireme is looking to be in deep do-do. I defined the classes mostly on 'structural' stamina but also cost-effectiveness and manpower.
Never saw your cost analysis examples. Nor did you give reasons for the roles suggested.
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I think you may have forgotten the massive clutter of the mediterranian and so 'every ship as a bireme' leaves you outclassed when the Greek culture unites (it generally does to a degree) and sends coalition fleets of 40 triremes.
Thanks, I show you an example of a mixed fleet, combining at a strategic point, thanks to ports, refit and a small fleet being on coastal patrol nearby, after an Adriatic Transport mission ran into hidden pirates. So you say I advocate 100% biremes and don't bother with anything else!
I'm not saying only use biremes, I'm just pointing out that numbers make up for quality in the RTW battles, and that combat power : upkeep ratio does not argue for disbanding biremes. A flimsy bireme will not make a good transport for a key army, unless you can guarantee that boat will not be attacked. Because the army will reach port or move off say. These are valid facts in the game, that does not mean I'm advocating "bireme only"; just trying to ensure there's a balance in the guide.
As for long range landing forces, after my army gets dropped. Fleet becomes a battle fleet tasked to gain control of sea and blockade. Reinforcements follow on, to maintain combat power, so ships can retrain after fighting.
Movement time, and space in the theatre matter, as well as ease of replacement. Making neat little piles of ships, and restricting their roles, may slow you down, due to reduced flexibility. It is clearly wrong, to divide fleets rigidly by type; and stick to it no matter what the circumstances. Just because you can make triremes or quinquiremes in one port, does not mean you should abandon, all older types as fighting ships. Ease of retraining, matters, so the weaker ships may be more effective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruelsader
Laudable initiative and interesting thoughts and comments! I play on VH (strat map)/H (battlefield) but I guess only srat map difficulty applies to naval battles. In my experience an overwhelming superiority is necessary to win a naval engagement, e.g. 3:1 to my favor is a lost cause. I guess it is the difficulty level?
That's right. All auto-calc battles use the strategy difficulty. There appears to be a random element, great odds usually win, but sometimes suffer a debacle, even on lower difficulty settings.
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It would be also useful if you listed the stats and requirements for each boat in the game and described in more detail "illogical" aspects of the game, such as where and when the pirates spawn and to what direction fleets "run". It is a lot of work, I know, but then the guide would be much more useful than it is now.
RTW is not historically accurate, the first Roman navy, was Quinquiremes copied from a Carthaginian ship which ran aground. They did not have to develop to uprade from bireme, trireme etc. I don't think the naval game is particularly well developed, brute production, and destroying isolated AI fleets, appears to suffice. Pirates vanish after 1 defeat, and are easily lured into traps.
My impression is that capturing Rebel Settlements, with port potential; reduce the liklihood of piracy. Historically, the Romans cleared out the Adriatic for trade, which began their involvement in Illyria for this reason.
The Pirates appear to chase weaker fleets, over multiple turns that they can beat, but stay just out of range. So they can be lured for destruction by superior fleet, running away with the weak fleet towards re-inforcements.
The neutral ships stopping movement, is very annoying. Moving in small steps, let you see more, but may waste movement points in my impression.
Fulfilling a blockade mission, may require immediate movement of a fleet, for this reason, if you leave it to last minute, too often the ships get delayed near target by a 3rd party neutral fleet, nevermind strong pirates with good admirals.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Thanks for the reply, RLucid! My experience with fleets is scant and I have not thought much about them: the AI is so dumb that it is easy to dominate at sea without having any sophisticated strategy. Nonetheless, it is interesting to learn more about the ships in the game and in real history. BTW, have you ever lost a fleet due to weather? I know it is supposed to be in the game but has never happened to me. It certainly was a very important factor historically.
I second that dividing ships into transport/lineships/flagships is not very useful. Basically, any ship is capable of anything- there are no predefined roles imposed by the game. (like one type having lower attack value but larger capacity for transport). It all depends on the situation what role a fleet should have. As regards brieme "spamming" then it is the only option early in the game for Romans. It takes a long time before quinquiremes can be built. If I play Scipii, I have practically destroyed Carthage and Numidia by the time I can start to build them. There is not much need either, since I can usually dominate with some stacks of very experienced biremes.
Zones of control of neutral fleets can be annoying, I agree. I also very much agree with you that screening is necessary for moving important fleets. When moving long distances into fog of war I find it useful to turn animations on, so it is possible to halt the movement of a ship before it enters a ZoC.
Do you now how to predict the direction of movement of defeated fleets? It would be useful to know. Thanks!
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruelsader
the AI is so dumb that it is easy to dominate at sea without having any sophisticated strategy.
Seconded, if you're a med. power like Roman faction. However it may be much harder to deal with, if you're Barbarian arriviste who's just conquered the Italian peninsula, and now need to subdue Sicily, Greece and take over the Aegean.
The guide would me more useful, if it suggested ways of negating, big Navies, for instance the land blockade. Took me long time to realise I could blockade a port by moving a unit onto it. Even thought some senate missions were impossible, as couldn't get ships around Iberia in time, before I could capture the settlement (Numantia).
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I second that dividing ships into transport/lineships/flagships is not very useful. Basically, any ship is capable of anything- there are no predefined roles imposed by the game. (like one type having lower attack value but larger capacity for transport). It all depends on the situation what role a fleet should have.
Thinking about purpose of mission perhaps is, transport fleet, battle group, economic warfare, control of seas, pirate patrol and suppression (not sure if moving ships around inhibit pirate spawning, think one of advisors suggested land rebels were inhibited by regular troop movements). Really like any strategy game, you need to have a plan, that you can follow through consistently, so you're not going back & forth, wasting moves.
Personally I was very surprised when I did the battle effectiveness against upkeep calc. as normally games weight in favour of advanced technology to increase the race aspect, and benefits accrueing to those who invest.
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As regards brieme "spamming" then it is the only option early in the game for Romans. It takes a long time before quinquiremes can be built. If I play Scipii, I have practically destroyed Carthage and Numidia by the time I can start to build them. There is not much need either, since I can usually dominate with some stacks of very experienced biremes.
As Brutii, Greece is totally destroyed, and only now do I have mostly Trireme ports, making them the "natural" ship type for the Aegean. The Greeks lost control of seas, very early on about time I hit Athens (next target after Apollonia & Thermon).
Playing Julii, I would be struggling to have more than a couple of well situated Tri-reme ports, and they would likely be far apart. Arretium, Carthage and say Patavium. That would make operations with Trireme rather painful, whereas biremes could rebuild close to action areas (Spanish & Gallic Coast).
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Do you now how to predict the direction of movement of defeated fleets? It would be useful to know. Thanks!
Think it's random, which makes sense. Ramming ships charge at each other and a fleet could presumably break out and hoist sail to, like Cleopatra at Actium with the pay ships (closely followed by Anthony).
Before that battle I referred to earlier, my transport was stopped by pirates, but the fleeing the next turn got me to where I wanted to go! Got lucky that time. In past I've had early game expeditions deflected way of course.
I think these issues, make expeditions rather risky, which is why I feel the Jullii are actually hard to play. Long term you need to develop better potential, hopefully capturing Carthage, but even with Senate blockade missions, trying to improve your forces by going to Crete say, to get archers, risks strategic over-stretch. The places you naturally capture, are in need of lots of development investment. One game I was lucky to besiege Sparta, and then capture Corinth which was already under-siege by Brutii, as they moved off their stack when I came to their "aid" trying to improve my Senate rating.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Sorry forgot storms. I read on forum somewhere that they were deactivated in certain versions. I'm playing 1.5 and never been affected by one directly, so think they're one of those well thought out features in the strategy game that got ditched.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Rlucid, what difficulty do you play on? The giude is is written from a VH\VH player's view. By the way, I like the seleucids. You DO get huge fleets sailing up to you, sometiumes 4 stacks at a time.
And sorry, I thought that while a decere isn't actually more efficient cost-wise, its power makes it unsuitable for a low-risk mission
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
I've played on every combo of difficulty level, except anything with easy in it. None of them seem all that satisfactory, as they distort unit figures and effective odds, and give AI financial floats, rather than alter the core faction strengths at start and alter level of AI ability.
I have impression you resent the analysis I did as result of your post, rather than take it as helpful feedback for production of a guide, as it was intended.
This was posted in a discussion section of forum, and it was "Guide to Naval Warfare" not specialist to Seleuicid's or a faction which has particularly difficult neighbours. You never claimed in first post that it was faction specific, nor difficulty level specific. But explained experience in other games, now RTW has quirks and those take some exlaining as the manual sure doesn't!
There's plenty of scope for explaining how to actually use the ships in the game, and make up for deficiencies in the manual. If you don't want any discussion, questions or folk having different opinions, that's fine but please make it clear at start of thread.
Your reasoning on economical value, about keeping high price (decere) ships for heavy duty or critical tasks makes sense; and agreed with idea behind economic analysis of combat stats v upkeep I did. If you stuck to relevant facts and explained the case, rather than try to chip away with adjectives like "cheesy" and misrepresent other posters, then it'd be easier to follow the reasoning.
The thrust of the ship type role classes, contradicts the refit point made for example. Whilst other points like range of ship, and stamina on patrol were very well made and very clear.
Something for the "Transport Role"
Another thing would be good to have in a Naval guide, is the "pontoon bridge", various places I found you can march land units onto a ship and off it again, saving round trip. Gulf of Corinth for example. Transport without movement seems not to clobber mp's of land units. And also chains of transports can move things faster, as units can transfer ship to ship at sea.
That is a justification for planning mission carefully, and stationing protective forces if available that can spot and destroy, blockers like pirates and enemy shipping.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Sorry, I actually think its a really good post and like getting feedback. The pontoon trick never occoured to me, thanks!
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Great :)
It didn't occur to me until I did it by accident. Have a slight fear that if I try and do it deliberately it won't cooperate. That's why I thought a guide would be good, because so much of the boat operation details has been trial & error for me.
The only obvious thing is that having more wood afloat seems to pay in the battles.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLucid
That's right. All auto-calc battles use the strategy difficulty.
It does? I thought campaign difficulty just gives the AI more money...... since auto-calc relies on battlefield values, getting a +4 in attack ('Hard' Battle Map) does affect the outcome.
This is anecdotal, but when I used to play almost exclusively with auto-calc, and when I made the transition from 'Easy' to 'Medium', I noticed a definite change with auto-calc'ed battles-- even odds no longer produce overwhelming victories on a regular basis, for example.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
According to reading round in FAQs and stuff, that's the word. Think CA say it's not a bug either, and that's reason why folk playing Strategy at VH level, complain they lose Naval battles regularly even at 3:1.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Attempt to link in to a good post with much commentary on naval action from Carthage's perspective Tritio's Post on Carthage - with much thought on Navies
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Well done Rlucid; having wood floating disticntly helps. How on earth did you work that out?:laugh4:
I know the figures say that 3 biremes offset a trireme,but from my play I seem to win more with tris than bis. Have you noticed that?
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
Having three triremes, of course, does perform better than three biremes. But do three triremes perform better than five biremes? They cost about the same to maintain, I think.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
No, theoretically. But what I'm saying is that when my fleets start being made upof more modern ships, they win more
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
When you don't think Pigs fly, then you go on the attack / defense factors of the matchups...
You also take into account the rating of Admiral, later in the game when you have Triremes you really ought to have better Admirals than the likely opponents.
But of course such details aren't interesting, if you know you should have a flagship, and aren't interested in what other forum members have thought on the subject.
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
You guys seem to be quite interested in naval tactics and the like.
I have read a series of books by a chap called N.A.M Rodgers about the history of naval warfare in the British isles (stay with me its going somewhere I promise)
the first one 'safeguard of the sea' is 600ad to 1600ad or there about. for much of this period naval battles where a bit like land battles in that the ships drew up alongside each other in a big mess and fought hand to hand.
However those commanders who used boats well in this period realised that there biggest advantage was speed over long distances and surprise.
so..
I like to use my ships to strike the enemy where he is weakest and either hold the captured city or raise it to the ground and get out before the enemy has chance to respond.
It's also good for landing diversionary forces to distract the ai
Re: An Admiral's Guide to Naval Warfare
One thing I can't stand is how when you attack and defeat an enemy navy, the defeated navy sails so far away, so that you never get to land the final blow that sends them to Davie Jone's locker. :wall:
You usually have to get a number of your navies strategically positioned so that you can tag-team the hapless enemy navy and send it to the bottom.
