Do the Timurids really add anything to the game?

I just can't take any more wars of attrition!:furious3:

These guys are basically clones of the Mongols, with some annoying and ridiculously overpowered elephants thrown in. They come far too late in the game to establish themselves, and by the time they come I find I'm just spamming armies to match theirs and holding them off at river crossings etc.

They are no fun to fight, and the only reason I'm continuing my HRE campaign are to fight the Aztecs. The New World is soo much more interesting and fun than fighting the Timurids.

Any opinions?

From playing RTW:Barbarian Invasion, I got pretty tired of being invaded by horde factions. After about 10 battles with the second wave, i.e. the second horde faction to come along, I got bored as battles tend to be pretty samey. In M2TW I've only managed to make a campaign last as long as the Mongols so far, but my experience fighting them is somewhat similar.

When they actually stopped loitering and made an assault they were an unfairly unstoppable juggernaut and it's pretty heart-breaking to see your prized, advanced city ruined. I think if I lasted to a second wave of invasion by the Timurids it would be a miracle, but you'd have to peel my catatonic face off a dribble-crusted keyboard - I'd be that bored.

The strategy of being prepared and taking the fight to them is something I'm about to try in my Turkey game I started last week. It's at about turn 63 and I've got all of Constantinople to Baghdad to at least large city/citadel level. I'm determined to make a go of it this time, because I am a chronic sufferer of late-campaign-ennui.

What I would add is that the invading hordes are a great excuse for the AI to pit challenging and advanced combined-arms forces against the player. It's just a shame that they're allowed to pit multiple stacks against your one-plus-reinforcements. That's always seemed to be a bit unfair and has kind of put me off fighting hordes. But I suppose it's a fine line between challenging and unfair.

Well... they add elephants, that's a fact :inquisitive:

You could try different approaches.

1. Fight them on open plains. Get creamed.
2. Fight them at river crossings, use artillery, throw in reinforcements, everything you've got, get creamed.
3. Climb the mountains near Jerusalem and wait for them there. It's fun to get creamed this way.
4. Fortify in your cities. Get creamed.
5. Fortify in your citadels. Here you stand a chance to cream them back.
6. Give your cities to your worst enemies and sue for peace. Watch them get creamed.
7. Give your cities to the Timurids (after they settle) and hope for peace. They will eventually attack. Get creamed.
8. Use assassins, save and reloads. Cream them all!
9. Send crusades against them after they've settled. Watch the Catholic factions getting creamed and cream them back home, once they're far away fighting the Mighty Creamers.

It's all about creaming ways, you know... :laugh4:

In my HRE 'good guy' max rep game I fought them open field using infantry dominated stacks.

I'd take 2-3 basilisk, 5-6 pavise, 6 spears, 4 knights and general + 1-2 heavy cav.

I'd get basilisks in range keeping a solid advancing front, 5-6 unit wide, pavise at front in 2 deep lines for max firepower, then a line of 6 spears, then a lump of dfk.

The basilisks I would use to pound first elephants and then general. Once the cannons were two-thirds gone, I would begin solid line advance under the last of my cannon and let the pavise wither them.

To deal with counter attacks, I would keep Pavise with autofire off. So when the Timurid Ha attack, they get a concentrated volley of 5 units, fairly devastating. I use my general/knights to disrupt any shooting circles. I also split my pavise to loose formation in a big missle fight, they are tough enough to soak up a lot of the lesser timurid missle fire without blinking an eye, esp. with armour upgrade.

If they charge early with heavy cav, I just fade the pavise back through the spear line/flanks, then rush the dfks at any hotspots on the spear line. Against the heavier horse Timurid stacks I'd pull my block tighter and double-up my spear lines. If they are light on firepower, I'd use schiltroms on the flanks and let my cav roam more etc.

I had some very engaging battles with the Timurids using the above armies, although I do then to goad them and split stacks from the horde with bait/nightfighters to make a lot of 1v1 battles. It also helps to play with the timer on, especially when attacking, forces you to get on with it in a fairly direct manner :smash:

You have to take a different approach. Attack them in the field with the goal of refining your armies until you've found one that allows you to defeat them with the minimum of losses.

If you just want to be rid of them and not have to fight, use spammed assassins.

:egypt:

Ah, they're not that bad. By the time they appear you have a sizeable empire, right? Probably able to raise a full army each turn. Just keep spamming them with armies and autoresolving, all of this before they settle. You're cranking out a stack/turn, they can't replace their losses, you win.

Remember the Sherman tank of WWII vintage? The thing sucked. Thin armor, weak little gun. Coming up against some panzers, it must've felt much like you when you come up against a stack of Timurid elephants. But they produced them at the rate of thousands a month and sooner or later, won :)

I have in several campaigns fought the Timurids in multiple open field battes, with a few river crossing defences thrown in. But it is just so boring and repetetive. I've found I can lose only slightly in the open field and even win sometimes against the full classic Timurid stack by focusing on everything except their elephants. If my troops hold out and shoot down most of the enemy infantry/cavalry, then I go for the elephants. Janissary Heavy Infantry seem to do a great job against them. And Janissary Musketeers can even shoot elephants down at a reasonable rate, due to the AP attack I presume.

But every battle is exactly the same and its criminally boring. Between the Mongols and Timurids, I can spend 95% of my time fighting them each turn from Turn 65 to Turn 170 and beyond, with only a little break, usually from Turn 110(ish)-140 if I'm lucky. But of course I get the Black Death just before the Timurids arrive...

I don't mind the Mongols so much, partly because they don't have the uber elephants, but mainly because they can add something interesting to the campaign and establish themselves in the Holy Land and sometimes even Russia.

But the Timurids are just a waste of time. You know they're coming, you know you have to fight them, you know you'll beat them eventually, and you know you won't loose more than a couple of settlements max in the process.

I really consider timurids a wasted oppertunity to add a cool faction to the game. Mongols also annoy me since they will always dominate the AI factions and will really hurt you since they come in so powerful. (Played as russia and lost around 20-30 turns fighting them) It is nice tho when i play as france, HRE or any more westernly located faction since then i can always count on a real challenge that will come to me once it is a fully functional empire instead of a mob.

Timurids tho often will kind of mess a game up for me. I like having some sort of endgame showdown with a faction on the other side of the map. In my current france game, it got to the point where turks owned all of middle east and SE europe, i had the rest of europe and a little bit of africe (the two spots the moors always get) And right as we are about to have a showdown, timurids come in and screw turks up so bad they never recover, giving me an easy coast to the finish...


So do timurids add anythig to the game?
Sure, they will annoy you late game in ME, and ruin a showdown if ur name is bart.