Elephants still too weak?

new version old issue: first turn as makedonia, the AI seems smarter than ever: KH siege corith and Pyrrhus decides to attack Pella with his elephants. This is the good; the bad is that even if their stats have been buffed elephants still drop like flies if touched by javelins: with 3 volley my mighty akontistai killed 5 eles (I play on large size) and the last one got berserk. Is there anything that can be done? Maybe the bonus against elephants via mount_effect of many skirmishers (akontistai have +2) is what makes javeliners so strong? The trown attribute is known to amplify the effect of javelins against multiple HP units, and 6 instead of 4 may have a big impact.

That's actually like we want it: missiles + elephants => dinner. :skull:

Therefore do not judge elphants by how the AI spoils them, but by how a crafty human general can cause total havoc with 'em!

You send elephants against javelins you´ve wasted you´re elephants, that´s how it always has been and always will be, in ancient warfare as in EB. Elephants weren´t the gigantic mass-killers that could stomp through anything and come out alive that Vanilla makes them appear, 180 Javelins (or whatever size your on) will almost certainly cause a hell lot damage to 6 elephants, and multpiply that by 3 and you have a bunch of dead elephants and a crying Pyrrhus. Easy as that.

I was actually considering elephants to be perhaps too powerful now in my Epeirot game now that they've got more hp: I've used them to eat phalanxes from the front (admittedly they were phalangitai deuteroi), and as far as I've experienced their shock value is their greatest asset.

Phalanx hammer and elephant anvil. :2thumbsup:

Yes, Arrian famously puts a speech in Alexander's mouth to the effect that he hasn't brought any of their allies' elephants because they are a liability and more trouble than they're worth.

Slightly related, how are people finding chariots now?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Yes, Arrian famously puts a speech in Alexander's mouth to the effect that he hasn't brought any of their allies' elephants because they are a liability and more trouble than they're worth.

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Would that be Alexander the Great, the guy who created the nucleus of the future Diadochi elephant corps...?

:book: it's curtius who put the speech, not Arrianus-don't trust Curtius, he was a scandle monger

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

:book: it's curtius who put the speech, not Arrianus-don't trust Curtius, he was a scandle monger

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You're right, I read both recently. In any case I suppose there's no such thing as a reliable source on Alexander, it's all fought hand at best.

seriously, even with how weak the elephants are, 1 unit is enough to rout an entire stack if the lines are engaged and javs spent. they need to be easy to kill.

Elephants are now utterly capable of performing their main function of shattering the enemy line, they are not too weak. In a one-on-one battle, they will probably lose to an organized infantry unit, particularly if those have good missiles. But who would field only elephants anyway?

Your elephants need to know how to sneak up on the enemy.

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Originally Posted by bovi

But who would field only elephants anyway?

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1 general and unfortunately that is the AI.

I haven't seen the AI ever use only elephants. In fact, it normally considers them to have poor cost-effectiveness it seems, for it hardly ever recruits them (and it's right about it, as it wastes them pretty efficiently).

I rarely build elephants but they have their uses:

1. Early game blitzing of wooden walled towns (sack the town - pay for upkeep :2thumbsup: )

2. Psych warfare - not that the AI can't be effectively made to route but it's even easier now (or helpful on Hard / VH)

3. Last ditch break of an enemy line in a battle where you really need it (after missiles have been exhausted preferably.)

Anyone wanting to use them as the main battle tank of the time period is in for a rude suprise (or need to stop watching Peter Jackson's films.)

They're a pretty good cavalry counter too. I found throwing them in first did wonders to even out the armour disparity between Hetairoi and Molosson Agema in the ensuing melee... :smash:

Not that a big clump of Romans already busy with phalangites and Hoplitai quite appreciated an elephant-cavalry double-whammy into the flank and rear either.

Elephants charged my skirmishers from the front even after getting loads of slings in them and javelins Even on huge scale with deep ranks they slammed right through and whipped out half the unit. Had to send my peltests over and continue the sling shooting to kill them off. They are far tougher than before and hit like a tone of bricks. Not sure if their cost has changed but I might consider using them now from what I witnessed

Also during a siege I noticed that 1 skirmisher unit had to use all of it's javelins to destroy a unit. Plus Eperos seems to have two units of these beasties along with 3xp phalanx and hyspatis(sp?). They are no push overs. Not to mention KH in the South scooping up mercs by the hand full. Still an easy game but far more challenge than anything I got from 1.0.

The real question is : In reality how were you supposed to kill an armored elephant ?

i agree, i think armoured elephants should be a LOT harder to kill, depending on the stregth of their armour, but non armoured ele's are always wasted by the AI. The best was to use them is to hold them back, have all the infantry engage in the centre so theres a big mass of people, then move round the flank with the ele's and plow into their backs...they can finish a fight, they're not much use starting one

I've found it an excellent tactic to use them as the first-wave charge in a cavalry engagement though.

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Originally Posted by the Bean

i agree, i think armoured elephants should be a LOT harder to kill, depending on the stregth of their armour, but non armoured ele's are always wasted by the AI. The best was to use them is to hold them back, have all the infantry engage in the centre so theres a big mass of people, then move round the flank with the ele's and plow into their backs...they can finish a fight, they're not much use starting one

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I beg to differ, I usually send in my elephants right through the enemy lines in the beginning of the fight, to demoralize the enemy and disrupt the formations as I move in the heavy infantry. I only let them run through however, and do not let them stay in the fray...

that works sometimes, but your army have to be close behind...tbh i dont use them often...they are hugely expensive and not usually worth it...they wud be useful early on, but by the time you can afford any they are outdated

Dose it matter what facing you hit the beasties on, then you toss the javes? I mean is it better to hit them in the rear or flanks than head on? Recently, I tried a massive headon and it seemed to have no impact at all? Well, no impact other than them tossing my men around like ragdolls (the toy not the dog).

it hurst to be hit by indian elephants, but if they get stuck in a mass of ur troops they die pretty quick...but like i said the ai use them badly

at least the EB team spared you the horrors of the legendary "syrian" elephant...:laugh4: :laugh4:

Elephants are too strong, they destroyed 2 units of ptolemaic elite phalanxes, that shouldn't happen, 500 guys with pikes should easily kill 22 elephants.

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Originally Posted by Gertrude

The real question is : In reality how were you supposed to kill an armored elephant ?

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In reality, you don't have to. It's easier to scare it and if you have to immobilise it by hamstringing it.

if u were really lucky you could crawl under its armour and stab it in the belly lol

You could probably cut open its throat too if you managed to get under the beast alive. Although the critter wasn't armoured, one Arab commander reputedly killed a Sassanid war elephant that way. (Several more apparently got trod on or killed by the fighting-crew trying to imitate the stunt...)

Or so I've read anyway.

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Originally Posted by the Bean

if u were really lucky you could crawl under its armour and stab it in the belly lol

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The problem being the Seleukids had a 50 man bodyguard unit per Nellie.

I am interested in just how effective the armour was on Kataphracti Nellies.
In game the armour differences are minimal, but in reality, shouldn't a second skin of leather and iron double your missile resistance? It's just that armour seems to cost alot and does little.

I know that Elephants were defeated in different ways, including scare tactics and caltrops, but are there any accounts of heavily armoured Nel's being defeated relatively easily via missiles?

In game I always keep mine guarded against missiles, on the flank, and only sweep in for the kill when the enemy is fully committed. Afterall it only takes a tiny mistake for your Nel's to get wiped out. In one scrap recently I lost my 2 silver cheveroned Carthaginian Nel's after being charged by the enemy Generals body guard(hard setting). My Nels soon routed and the remainer just circled around the enemies balista tower(and I heard Nel's were smart).