Any idea how Alexander the Great's army at the beginning of him campaign through Asia would look in EB?And maybe the Persian and Indian armies he faced?
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Any idea how Alexander the Great's army at the beginning of him campaign through Asia would look in EB?And maybe the Persian and Indian armies he faced?
Guess the mainstay would be the Phalanx, maybe medieum hellenic or the Deutheroi... slingers, aswell as thracians, and companion cavalry.. Im not much into what Alexanders army was like though
I know its a wargamer site, but i think these guys got a pretty good idea how his army looked
http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_37_figure_1.htm
EDIT: added link
I'd say mostly phalanxes (pezhetairoi) and heavy cavalry, with some skirmishers including agrianian infantry as "elite skirmishers".
The persian army was very varied, but I think it contained mainly archers and spearmen (maybe archer-spearmen as well? :P), some well trained, some not. It's also to note that Alexander's army was far more "standard" than the persian army at the time.
But someone with more knowledge would enlighten you more than me, of course... I'm waiting for someone to write a very loooong post about this, since I'm interested as well :P
Army at the time of Alexandros
Based on the army at Granicus. I use this model because it was Alexandros first battle against Persia and it shows the best of Makedonia at the moment (in later battles Alexandros had reinforcements like horse archers).
1700 Companions
800 Podromoi
1700 Thessaly cavalry
600 Greek cavalry
200 Paeonian cavalry
12000 phalanx
7000 allied Greek hoplites
3000 Hypaspists
6000 Thracian peltasts
5000 Greek mercenary peltasts
1000 Illyrians
500 Agrianians
500 Cretans
with EB units
1 General
Cavalry
1 unit of Heitaroi
1 unit of Podromoi
2 unit of Hippeis Thessalikoi
Infantry
3 units of Hoplitai
4 units of Pezhetairoi
2 units of Hypaspits
Light Infantry
3 units of Thraikoi Peltastai
2 units of Peltastai
1 unit of Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi
1 unit of Toxotai Kretikoi
* Some units were too small or don’t exist for Makedonia like the Paeonian cavalry or the Illyrian light infantry so I ommited them. Other EB units have more than what Alexandros used, but I ommited that too. I also omitted the Greek mercenary cavalry because they were too few, but you can change 1 unit of Hippeis Thessalikoi for them. With the Hypaspits, one of this was the agema so I think u can use the Pheraspidai as placeholders if you want.
Although by what I know of period Greek cavalry arms, the Thessalians would be more like high-chevron Hippeis. Minus shield and with javelins at that.
Bugger Hellenes had to go and overhaul their equestrian war gear in the meantime. Bastards. :no:
I agree mostly with Eduorius' list but with only a few possible alternatives:
Greek Mercanary Peltasts - Eduorius uses Peltastai while I would be more inclined towards Akontistai given the amount of change that peltasts underwent between Alexander and EB's period, mainly in the form of increased armor.
Phalanx - I might use Phalangitai Deuteroi for similar reasons to the above.
Allied Hoplites - Iphikratous Hoplitai instead of regular Hoplitai as Luke Ueda-Sarson makes the point that most hoplites at this point were using Iphikratic equipment rather than the heavier panoply.
If you wanted to represent the Illyrians, Greek Mercanary Cavalry or Paeonians, you can use Illyrioi Thureophoroi, Hippeis and Thrakioi Hippeis respectively.
Of course, any these is open to interpretation, especially as some of these units don't have close equivelents in EB.
Chairman
Battle of Granicus - The Persian Satrap's Army:
Bactrians: 2000
Hyracanians: 1000-2000
Paphlagonia: 1000
Cappadocia: 1000-2000
Other Cavalry: 8000-10000
Greek Mercanary Hoplites: 5000-8000
Greek Mercanary Peltasts: 1000-2000
Local Troop Levy (archers & spearmen): 5000-8000
Possible EB equivelents:
Bactrians: Baktioi Hippeis
Hyracanians: Asabaran-i Madaen
Paphlagonians: Asiatikoi Hippeis (this is really open to interpretation)
Cappadocians: Katputaka Asabara
Other Cavalry: any mix of Asiatikoi Hippakontistai, Asiatikoi Hippeis, or any skirmisher and archer cavalry (essentially whatever non-mercanary/greek cavalry is at hand in Asia Minor)
Greek Mercanary Hoplites: Misthophoroi Hoplitai
Greek Mercanary Peltasts: Misthophoroi Peltastai
Local Troop Levy: any mix of Tabargane Eranshahr, Thanvare Payahdag, Nizagan-i Eranshahr, Gund-i Palta, Gund-i Nizagan or Pantadapoi (really any levy archers, spearmen, skirmishers, or axemen)
This list is much more tentative than any reconstuction of Alexander's army, so feel free to be less strict about composition.
Chairman
Battle of Issus - Alexander' Army:
Hypaspists: 3000
Phalanx: 12000
Greek Allied Infantry: 7000
Thracian Peltasts: 6000
Illyrians: 1000
Cretans: 1000
Mercanaries: 5000
Companions: 2100
Thessalians: 2100
Greek Allied Cavalry: 750
Prodromoi: 600
Paeonians: 300
Possible EB equivelents:
Hypaspists: Hypaspitai
Phalanx: Pezhetairoi or Phalangitai Deuteroi (depending on your interpretation of phalanx as either heavy or light)
Greek Allied Infantry: Hoplitai or Iphikratous Hoplitai (again depending on either heavy or light)
Thracians: Thrakioi Peltastai
Illyrians: Illyrioi Thureophoroi
Cretans: Toxotai Kretikoi
Mercanaries: Misthophoroi Peltastai, Peltastai or Akontistai
Companions: Hetairoi
Thessalians: Thessalikoi Hippeis
Greek Allied Cavalry: Hippeis
Prodromoi: Prodromoi
Paeonians: Thrakioi Hippeis (this is difficult as this is an imperfect solution)
Chairman
You guys are right that during the time of Alexander the units were "lighter". I gave a list based on units names, but I agree that in 336 BC the Thesalians would look like Hippeis and that maybe the Heitairoi would look like Thesalians.
Battle of Issus - Darius' Army:
Greek Mercanary Hoplites: 8000-10000
Cardaces: 20000
Thracians: 12000-15000
General Levy: 50000
Nobles: 3000
Others (heavy & light): 8000-10000
Possible EB equivelents:
Greek Mercanary Hoplites: Misthophoroi Hoplitai
Cardaces: Kardaka Arteshtar (might include Thanvare Parsig as back up to the heavier Kardaka infantry)
Thracians: Thrakioi Peltastai
General Levy: pretty much any eastern levy light infantry unit can fill this position
Nobles: Khuveshavagan
Others: Asiatikoi Hippeis, Asiatikoi Hippakontistai or almost any combo of heavy & light eastern cavalry, try to balance both groups
Again, the Persian lists are more difficult to assign units to as some of the Persian national cavalry units did not survive past Alexander's reign to make it to EB. Also, the vagueness of "Others" and "General Levy" leave much to careful discernment rather than obvious choices.
Chairman
Battle of Gaugamela - Alexander's Army:
Phalanx: 12000
Hypaspists: 3000
Greek Allied Infantry: 7000
Greek Mercanary Infantry: 8000-9000
Thracians: 6000
Illyrians: 1000
Agrianians: 1000
Cretans: 1000
Companions: 2100
Thessalians: 2100
Greek Allied Cavalry: 750
Prodromoi: 600
Paeonia: 300
Thracian Cavalry: 500
Asian Mercanary Cavalry Archers: 300
Greek Mercanary Cavalry: 400
Possible EB equivelents:
Phalanx: Pezhetairoi or Phalangitai Deuteroi
Hypaspists: Hypaspitai
Greek Allied Infantry: Hoplitai or Iphikratous Hoplitai
Greek Mercanary Infantry: Misthophoroi Hoplitai/Iphikratous Hoplitai
Thracians: Thrakioi Peltastai
Illyrians: Illyrioi Thureophoroi
Agrianians: Agrianikoi Pelekuphoroi
Cretans: Toxotai Kretikoi
Companions: Hetairoi
Thessalians: Thessalikoi Hippeis
Greek Allied Cavalry: Hippeis
Prodromoi: Prodromoi
Paeonians: Thrakioi Hippeis
Thracians: Thrakioi Prodromoi
Asian Mercanary Cavalry Archers: whatever mercanary horse archers are in the vicinity of Mesopotamia or Syria
Greek Mercanary Cavalry: Misthophoroi Hippeis
Chairman
Battle of Gaugamela - Darius' Army:
Guard: 2000
Greek Mercanary Hoplites: 2000
Mardian Light Troops: 2000
General Levy: 50000
Persian Cavalry: 1000
Guard Cavalry: 1000
Indian Cavalry: 1000
Carian Cavalry: 1000
Susianan Cavalry: 1000
Cadusian Cavalry: 1000
Sacessinian Cavalry: 1000
Median Cavalry: 2000
Albanian Cavalry: 1000
Hyracanian Cavalry: 1000
Tapurian Cavalry: 1000
Dahae Cavalry: 1000
Arachosian Cavalry: 2000
Massagetae Cavalry: 2000
Bactrian Heavy Cavalry: 6000
Bactrian Light Cavalry: 1000
Cappadocian Cavalry: 2000
Armenian Cavalry: 2000
Syrian Cavalry: 1000
Parthian Cavalry: 2000
Mesopotamian Cavalry: 1000
Scythian Cavalry: 4000
Scythed Chariots: 200
Elephants: 15
Possible EB equivalents:
Guard: this is hard because this is the Immortals who don't have a unit in EB, so the best choice could be a high chevroned unit of Thanvare Parsig
Greek Mercanary Hoplites: Misthophoroi Hoplitai
Mardian Light Troops: Shivatir-i Marda
General Levy: any mix of levy Eastern troops (skirmishers, slingers, archers, spearmen and axemen)
Persian and Guard Cavalry: Khuveshagan
Indian Cavalry: Kamboja Asvaka Ksatriya
Carian, Susianan, Sacessinian, Tapurian, Syrian and Mesopotamian Cavalry: Asiatikoi Hippeis and Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
Median, Cadusian and Hyracanian Cavalry: Asabaran-i Madaen
Albanian and Armenian Cavalry: Nizakahar Ayrudzi and Aspet Hetselazor
Dahae Cavalry: Daha Baexdzhyntae
Arachosian Cavalry: Asabaran-i Hauravitish
Massagetae Cavalry: Daha Uazdaettae
Bactrian Heavy Cavalry: Bactrioi Hippeis
Bactrian Light Cavalry: Asabaran-i Hauravitish
Cappadocian Cavalry: Katputaka Asabara
Parthian Cavalry: Shivatir-i Pahlavanig
Scythian Cavalry: Skuda Baexdxhyntae
Scythed Chariots: Harmata Drepanephoroi
Elephants: Elephantes Indikoi
This is a very complicated list, both in identifying some of the peoples named and in deciding what units they receive. Also, no single faction can recruit all of these units, so EDU tinkering is necessary if you want to have this army. This could be avoided by ignoring those units whose size makes them irrelevant.
Chairman
Battle of Chaeronea - Philip's Army:
Hypaspists: 3000
Phalanx: 24000
Mercanary Infantry and light troops: 5000
Heavy Cavalry: 1800
Light Cavalry: 400
Possible EB equivalents:
Hypaspists: Hypaspistai
Phalanx: Phalangitai Deuteroi
Mercanary Infantry and light troops: Iphikratous Hoplitai, Thrakioi Peltastai, Spendonetai and Akontistai
Heavy Cavalry: Hetairoi
Light Cavalry: Prodromoi
This battle is interesting because it shows the native Makedonian forces in the process of becoming standardized.
Chairman
Yes, but they're 21 units. Counted them 2 times, can't be that tired... :P Guess they're minus 1 Thrakioi Peltlastai?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduorius
Battle of Chaeronea - Allied Greek Army:
Hoplites: 30000
Mercanary Peltasts: 5000
Possible EB equivalants:
Hoplites: Hoplitai, Iphikratous Hoplitai, Hoplitai Haploi and some Epilektoi Hoplitai for the Theban Sacred Band
Mercanary Peltasts: Peltastai
Chairman
Wow...Thanks guys.Lots of valuable information gathered here.Baloons :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: for everyone.
Nice information Chairman. Phreaps EB will use it to make some historical battles. ;)
wait! if you use deuteroi-they should have higher exp and attack-to reflect better training and efficiancy than later actual "deuteroi" -though armor can be same...
also prodromoi in EB are way too heavy for Alexander's army-try Illyrian cav. or hippakontistai minus javelins maybe.
I can recommend Conquest and Empire by AB Bosworth. Easy to read and gives the dispositions of various troops. It's been borrowed so I can't print them here and have a Eumenes style hangover so am unable to rmeember them. (or type apparently)
Cheers
The problem with all this is there's no way to know whether the Prodoumoi, Thracians and Paeonians were skirmishers or lancers half the time. There is a reference to "the lancers" which doesn't equate to the Companions or Thessalians, both of whom probably were heavy-armed, and it probably is the Prodoumoi.
There's also huge debate about how the Hypaspists were armed and how they functioned in relation to the phalanx.
Well from what I recall there was at least one thracian skirmisher group there. Don't know if they all were tho...
Nah, very much outside of our time frame. Someone else wants to do it, that's fine, but it wouldn't be incorporated into EB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolt
The earliest we'll go is Ipsos, which I hope to get into the next release along with Raphia and Magnesia, but I need to retool it and get a formation in the game for the AI.
Aww, shucks, guys! I just happen to have this one book that focuses on the Greco-Roman age and their militaries, so it has excellent battle sections that list what forces were present and such as far as we know. So I just decided to use this to help out the community (and make a shameless plug for EB membership, "hint, hint"). Hope all of this is useful. And if anyone cares, I can still do the Battle of the Hydaspes, as well as the Battle of Raphia, or most of the Persian Wars' battles.
Chairman