Printable View
My question is simple. How do I use melee cavalry effectively? I usually play as Baktria, Carthage, or the Ptolemies, and most of the time, my cavalry can barely win a melee fight with the weakest infantry unit without taking severe casualties. Help.
Go for the flanks and rear.
Disengage and repeat charge.
Multiple converging charges against a single unit are your friend.
You mean stuff like cataphracts? Generally the usual infantry bog down enemy infantry, you hit the enemy from the back with a xyston or its equivalent. I get huge amounts of kills from cataphract family members every battle. In my 1.0 Pontos campaign, I regularly kill 1/3 or 1/2 of the enemy with only my general.
If you're fighting enemy cavalry, use their spear. If you're fighting enemy infantry, alt + click to switch to their swords. If you can, don't try to fight enemy infantry in an all-out melee, especially spearmen. Retreat, and then charge with their lances, and repeat. Much more casualties on the enemy side rather than yours.
If you can get the enemy army to be just infantry, keep running around until the infantry are all exhausted. Now, hopefully you have killed the general, charge them, just keep doing it. If it's a cataphract, you can pretty much even charge spearmen, though do it fast so they don't reform correctly.
You know, most of the time the secondary weapon is better anyway. The lances have ludicrously low base attack values and seriously huge attack delays...
I usually do charge into the rear as that's just common sense, but my cavalry are constantly slaughtered. Just today in the siege of Syracuse as Carthage, it had been under siege for 8 turns and they sallied fourth with there troops at less than half strength. My merc hippies were slaughtered in melee by akonistai and my general got killed by a unit of Tarentine cavalry. He took down the Tarentines until they had one man left but he couldn't kill the general (Hiero), the sole surviving Tarentine. Hiero killed my general and they routed.
Say... what battle difficulty are you playing with ?
+1 to what Watchman said...
alt-right click from outside the cav units charge range. they will charge with their spear/lance then switch to the more effective secondary weapon after
I play on H/M Large settings.
Then you're just doing something tactically wrong. :shrug: Sacred Band cav should eat pretty much any readily encountered horse in those parts for breakfast in melee; or rather, *does* - speaking from experience.
I think the cavalry is just weak in this game for some reason. I play on those settings too and Medium cavalry seems weak against most types of troops. I dunno I tend to use HA as they seem more effective...
You pretty much have to use heavy cavalry if you want them to succeed in a melee. Medium and light cavalry are better off chasing routers or, if necessary, charging enemy rears and flanks.
Thank you Koron (again) for answering my question over at TWC and here.
You need massed cavalry to deliver charges, three units at least. If you don't have that many then relegate them to just annoying the enemy and getting them to run around. Many medium cavalry units, usually marked as heavy, such as Hippeis, Prodoumoi etc are good in a fight and with a few points of experience can handle enemy generals at least until you can bring in the heavy guns.
Are you charging properly, walk then break into the chage, lances down?
[QUOTE=Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla]You need massed cavalry to deliver charges, three units at least.QUOTE]
I just send shock cav. first (e.g. E. extraordinarii), then send in melee cav.( hippeis, or E.romani) right after them. It routs just about anybody.. but yes massed attacks are the best, since it depends on unit mass to smash a line, not just attack
Well I'm playing with Getai and their Medium cavalry is a joke really. It costs too much. With that money I can make 2 units of HA which are way more effective if used properly. I use family as heavy cavalry, at least I can retrain them in more places... Just an example. I have an alpine phalanx fighting with some swordsmen and I attack them from the back with Medium cavalry and yeah I win but I loose at least 10 or more horsemen. That's not very realistic at all as swordsman have no chance against armored cavalry. What do you mean proper charge? Is there a special way to do it?
like we said: use a massive amount, hit them in the rear or flanks, and retreat after impacting and doing damage. I use these ideas effectively (losing 1-6 men for every 100). I in AS charged using these tactics and broke even spear armed infantry (outnumberd 6, or even 10:1) , plus cavalry have more stamina, and are faster. tire the enemy infantry out, then charge. they'll break like a stick.
the ideal distance before ordering a charge is the space that can be covered by whatever cavalry in 4-10 sec. (at least that's what I found), that way you can hear the horn/bugle/cornus on charge, and they lower lances. also never use cavalry alone. use infantry to engage the enemy, then hit them, unless you're steppe, or a cavalry "god". if you are germanic, there is the one hundred men, they actually can do as the EB historical guide says they do*. you can also support them with more cav., missiles, or any fast moving unit that can melee. summary: they are to break(shock), not kill off, the enemy.
and never use tarabostes that way; use tem to raid and pick. leave the Ktistai or P. Daoi; even the t. prodromoi are better at shock attacks.
*see www.europabarbarorum.com and find the sweboz.
Well yeah but a 50 men strong charge to the rear of a 82 men unit that is armed only with swords should do more damage especially if they are supported by a phalanx and my general has 8 stars. In Medieval TW I once held back 500 men with only one group of cavalry until my reinforcements arrived. In this one I only find HA useful and you don't need to be Asian to use them right. The getai have very good HA. I will try Thracian cavalry next, maybe they will be better. And believe me this is not the first time I play TW and I know how to use cavalry.
I know about RTW-just in EB its done differently.
Don't the Getai have the awful very spaced out formation for their family members? I don't think their bodyguards are that strong either.
I suggest you try Hayasdan or Pontos. Their general's bodyguards are practically tanks.
I can agree to thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Korlon
Playing Hayasdan right now and the Kinsmen cavalry have a charge off 44, armor penetrating maces for melee and 30 defense.
They're the best cata's in the beginning of the game.
But lances get higher kills, especially against cavalry. Because of more lethality, I guess. In custom battle, my sword using cataphracts are beaten by lance using cataphracts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Fixed in 1.1. They're properly bad ass now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korlon
This files under "Did Not Do His Homework" you know. You're aware that cataphracts preferred to avoid frontal assaults against fresh and properly formed Legionary maniples, right ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daos
Ive found that Medium or even Light Cavalry are more than adequate for causing routs when charging from the rear against engaged troops. Ok, so Im playing as Baktria... but still with almost any faction the impact is enough. The key is not to come in too early IMO. Allow the enemy troops time to properly engage your infantry (defensive troops - aka spearmen - are best used in this role) then charge the rear, withdraw immediately, charge, withdraw etc. Usually against tired troops 2 or 3 charges are enough and casualties tend to be minimal if you pull your cav away fast enough.
Things to look out for that lessen the impact of the charge include:
Charging through another (friendly) unit
Not having the entire unit far enough away and stationary before the charge order is issued
The enemy unit has changed its facing and is no longer showing its back to you
Enemies are fresh (very unusual with this AI...)
etc etc
Also, if the engaged enemy unit hasn't broken within say five seconds of the cavalry impact, it's usually better to disengage the horses and charge again.
I just got the Hetairoi Kataphraktoi(late baktrian bodyguards) in my baktrian camp. This guys are freakin tanks. Usually i use the cav for flanking the enemies, no long fights, just charge in and get out of the hotspot quickly, but katas can even charge in and then fight in hand to hand.
Also it depends on the cav weapons type - ap or not. Some cav that doesn't use ap weapons is not even worth to recruit, cause they are not even effective, when chasing down fleeing enemies.
In my Aedui campaign I'm actually finding the Brihentin FM cav to be bloody good city assault troops & have been actively using them not for gaining the initial bridgehead but for breaking up those sometimes nasty battles half way between the walls & town centre.
In that context they are just standing pretty much still & fighting either with sword or their short spears.
That said they haven't normally been fighting particularly heavy infantry & not spears other than depleted units & weaklings like Lugoae.
As previously mentioned, to get the cavalry charge cavalry to work properly, you need to set up for the charge right:
-Put them in a position where they have a clear path to the rear of the enemy unit.
-Set them up as close to parallel to the chargee as possible, a fair distance back.
-Wait until they have stopped & reformed before ordering the charge.
-Use Alt + Click to get them to swap to secondary weapon after impact
-Zoom in as they are charging to make sure you hear them bugle call & for visual confirmation that all/most have their lances down, if not best to break off the charge & reform then try again.
-Let them fight for a few seconds (more for the ones with good melee staying power) & if the enemy isn't wavering &/or you are taking losses then pull back, reform & repeat. Maybe pick a more depleted/weaker unit this time.
Its not always possible/desirable to do all of these depending on the tactical circumstances but do a few the right way & after a few battles where you can't do it quite perfectly, you'll get a good idea how far off perfect you can get while still getting most of the effect.
I rarely use more than 2 units of cav in any full stack (other than HAs for steppe areas) & one is the FM bodyguard, yet they are still the main striking force & typically get the most kills.
No need for massive numbers where finesse can get you similar effect allowing more reserve grunt power (infantry).
I was not talking about a frontal assault. I never do that, except maybe against light infantry. And you do know that there is little you can do with a short sword to an armed horsemen who is wielding a lance? I'm glad to hear that the Getai cavalry is better inn 1.1. Too bad I won't be using them. I need to decide on a new faction for that game. One that doesn't have good archers as I tend to overuse them. That's why I was thinking to play the Macedonians...Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
play romani-no native archers till imperial times (sagittarii Auxilia)
Nah... I've finished the vanilla with the romani on hard. There's barely a challenge there for me. I will play a faction with good heavy infantry or good heavy cavalry next.
I daresay the Romans, and not a few others, beg to disagree...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daos