Does the devil exist?

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

I say we try another angle.

Could someone open a thread called "Does the devil exist?" and state his position, so we can see where we get. I promise not to troll, derail or misbehave otherwise, on condition that it's the real beef we're discussing. Not some abstract concept of evil that is defined beforehand as intangible and incomprehensible, but a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world.

G'won, hit me!

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I'll take the bait, and start the ball rolling. I probably wouldn't have been moved to, except that earlier this week I saw a newspaper billboard, in which the featured headline was "Satan was at the wheel". I presume this meant some driver was claiming (in court) that his car crash was caused by the aforementioned "consciously evil" entity, rather than his own shortcomings with mechanical devices.....

Personally I take the view that human folly and selfishness is sufficient cause for all the evil we perceive in the world, without multiplying entities to account for it, yet I have encountered many, many devout people who absolutely know the Devil is real (and is personally responsible for me not believing in him).

Let it roll :bow:

Well, looking at what the good guy does(killing every firstborn for the crimes of the monarch, burning an entire city because of gay people, etc), I say we give this "devil" a shot.

I for one, welcome our Satanic overlord.

I thought you were the Satanic overlord.

Oh well, I'll take the posters down and stop praying. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I thought you were the Satanic overlord.

Oh well, I'll take the posters down and stop praying. :shrug:

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Put those posters back up, minion. I'm your quasi-Satanic overlord.

My first thought when I saw the thread "Is this the beggining of a chain reaction? Only a matter of time before "Does the Easter Bunny exist?"

Anyway, people need a scapegoat for some reason. And the devil (a unseeable-unknowable force) is a good one.

"a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world" suffers from the same lack of evidence as any other metaphysical interventionist.

Its one of those things that can be debated endlessly, while never getting any closer to being solved. If it does exist then it is beyond our understanding anyway.

My own opinion on the matter is that God, the Devil etc. are all a creation of the human mind. My reasoning is that as a species we need order, otherwise we'll end up wiping each other out. As every person has free will, then without rules and consequences, people would be able to do anything they want (if they had no morals).

In other words, the promise of eternal life and bliss for being good, and of punishment, fire and brimstone if you're not, is the ultimate way of maintaining order of some kind.

Complicated and not very well thought through I know, but just my two cents.

The Antichrist is here.
In Romanian bookkeeping we often list expesnses with intrests using "666"

So a standard procedure when recording interest expenses is:

666=5121

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Originally Posted by Cronos Impera

The Antichrist is here.
In Romanian bookkeeping we often list expesnses with intrests using "666"

So a standard procedure when recording interest expenses is:

666=5121

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I knew it! His Majesty is a bookkeeper! The Deevil is always in the small print and there is no smaller print than the secret codes in an accountant's little black booklet, the shadow of his legal dealings.

(Clouseau voice): How clevair of yeu, Beelzebub! :bow:

Seriously, we have no shortage or Orgahs who tell us that they pray to God and expect salvation, of not divine intervention, as a result. Where is the first Orgah to tell us in all seriousness that the Devil made him do something?

Well, find someone who said God "made" him do something first, then ask about mister horns-and-goat's legs.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Where is the first Orgah to tell us in all seriousness that the Devil made him do something?

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Believe me, members appeal their warnings on that ground all the time...

:book2:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Not some abstract concept of evil that is defined beforehand as intangible and incomprehensible, but a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world.

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Wasn't the whole point that each of the six billion wandering is potentially that definition? The devil is the depths to which a person can fall. While the motivations may be intangible, the deeds are not.

Well of course, "good" Adrian II. Who would start a thread in order to find out who believe´s in the devil, more likely then the old trickster himself. I call for immediate water test in order to clear that in fact Mr. Adrian II is the devil. If he will sink, he is innocent and will go to heaven, if he floats, we just have to burn him at stake!~:thumb:

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Well of course, "good" Adrian II. Who would start a thread in order to find out who believe´s in the devil, more likely then the old trickster himself. I call for immediate water test in order to clear that in fact Mr. Adrian II is the devil. If he will sink, he is innocent and will go to heaven, if he floats, we just have to burn him at stake!~:thumb:

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Can we put him in concrete boots and a potassium suit before we chuck him into the pond? Why should we choose between drowning him and burning him when we can have both?

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Well of course, "good" Adrian II. Who would start a thread in order to find out who believe´s in the devil, more likely then the old trickster himself. I call for immediate water test in order to clear that in fact Mr. Adrian II is the devil. If he will sink, he is innocent and will go to heaven, if he floats, we just have to burn him at stake!~:thumb:

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You want to burn the Devil, master Kagemusha? :mellow:

Surely you are aware of his peculiar abode and circumstance being such that flames are the least of his worries.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Can we put him in concrete boots and a potassium suit before we chuck him into the pond? Why should we choose between drowning him and burning him when we can have both?

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Because we are just people and we have to first see whether he is truly the devil. So if he drowns and is innocent, he will be at the gate of heaven talking with St.Peter about atheism in no time.:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Because we are just people and we have to first see whether he is truly the devil. So if he drowns and is innocent, he will be at the gate of heaven talking with St.Peter about atheism in no time.:laugh4:

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I will prove to St. Peter that he does not, in fact, exist.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

You want to burn the Devil, master Kagemusha? :mellow:

Surely you are aware of his peculiar abode and circumstance being such that flames are the least of his worries.

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Surely the devil would us like to think so, the cunning old goat behind he is.If we are to fight the devil, successfully we need to have the resolve of the people from Monty Python´s The Holy Grail, anything less will lead in to total failure:strawman3:

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Surely the devil would us like to think so, the cunning old goat behind he is.If we are to fight the devil, successfully we need to have the resolve of the people from Monty Python´s The Holy Grail, anything less will lead in to total failure:strawman3:

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:2thumbsup:

Anyway, he must be the Devil, because he looks like one.

And he turned Crazed Rabbit into a Newt.

God cast down lucifer.

So if God exists it's as reasonable to assume so does the devil. Telling them apart might be the toughest thing though...

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Kagemusha

Surely the devil would us like to think so, the cunning old goat behind he is.If we are to fight the devil, successfully we need to have the resolve of the people from Monty Python´s The Holy Grail, anything less will lead in to total failure:strawman3:

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You mean we need the Holy Hand Grenade?

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Originally Posted by Big_John

"a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world" suffers from the same lack of evidence as any other metaphysical interventionist.

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Yeah, that's the trouble with those MI's ("metaphysical interventionists"; excellent term, Big_John! :thumbsup:) by their very definition as 'metaphysical' we already posit, for argument's sake, that they are bigger, stronger, and more complex than we are - hence we canot know their motivations, hence we cannot "know" them, as we know each other. So, we try to prove their existence via their apparent interventions.

Two thoughts, though: as rory_20_uk points out, in most of the stories, the godMI is stronger than the devilMI, the godMI having created the devilMI. And, the godMI performs his interventions on an individual (human), group, regional and global scale, whereas the devilMI seems to only act on the individual scale, as tempter of single humans to misbehave.

This makes their competition for human souls seem pathetically one-sided; not a true competion, as we know it, at all. The devilMI, though "strong" compared to us, must be a mere annoyance to the godMI.

More interesting is the fact that God could destroy the Devil but chooses not to.

Why?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

More interesting is the fact that God could destroy the Devil but chooses not to.

Why?

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Isn't he supposed to during the Apocalypse.:shrug:

Well yes, but why wait?

Something to think about.

Biblical drama, of course. When trying to pass fiction as fact, it's especially important to make it all extremely exciting.

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Originally Posted by Big_John

"a conscious and consciously evil being that intervenes in the natural world" suffers from the same lack of evidence as any other metaphysical interventionist.

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Hey Big_John, terrific choice of words. "Metaphysical interventionist" best describes the inaccurate perception of the Lord as promulgated by the Catholic Church.

I am posting here to deflate that. I'll first address the perception of the Lord as an interventionist in experiential reality. Then I'll address the nature of the Devil and Evil.

Regarding the Intervention of the Lord: I would ask that you first check out this thread to cover the foundation for the nature of God.

God does not physically intervene. It doesn't happen. That is the reason we were created. We are his hands upon the world. We, when we choose to follow his will, contribute to shaping existence. We physically intervene and do as he desires to change our experience as sentient beings. This does not require a high intellect or a specific talent. We all have our individual role to play.

Their is no self-aware evil. The Devil as an entity does not exist. Evil is our decision to act directly contradictory to the will of God. Most of what we do is neutral and has no significance: defecating, sleeping, etc. But when we have the opportunity to commit an act of evil with no consequence for commission (finding a wallet and taking out the money), we choose to do His will or not. Furthermore, if we choose to take it a step further and create opportunities to commit evil, we are acting with a greater degree of evil.

Not all evil is equal. But all evil is still evil. Just as water may vary in volume, it is still water.

We take on the role of Devil when we choose to not just ignore God's will, but when we choose to exploit created opportunities to act against God. In this way, since we are created beings, the Devil is indeed "created".

As for "which is stronger": The best analogy compares God to light and evil to darkness. Darkness does not extinguish light. Rather, darkness is an absence of light.

So too with following the will of God. Evil exists when we fail to follow His will. We can follow, we can ignore, or we can act against. Most people just ignore and pretend that both evil and God do not exist. Thus a person who murders someone for fun must be "insane" rather than evil.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Their is no self-aware evil. The Devil as an entity does not exist.

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I thought there was a devil in Christianinty. An angel that went against God or something like that. Haven't got to that part in the Bible yet.

Yes, Lucifer "Light Bringer" the left hand of God who first incited man to sin.