ROMA - A preliminary game design. In search of team members.

Ok, so I've been mulling this project for quite some time now, theorizing and writing stuff down. Finally I've decided to make it public and see what kind of help I can get from other interested people in the forum.

Some time back, when Paradox's Rome was made public, I started to think of the 'perfect' Roman-era strategy game. Looking at either RTW or Rome:EU one can find some inconsistencies or absences that make the games less enjoyable for people like me, those looking for the ideal harmony of realism and history.

At the same time, both games had a great deal to offer to the gamer. On the one hand, Paradox's Rome approaches the period from a grand strategy perspective, with the player essentially controlling his nation top-down, abstracting warfare and most military details in favour of the big picture. On the other hand, RTW focussed on the 'total war' aspect, the military, units, and battlefield interaction, abstracting strategic concepts such as trade and the economy.

My first idea was to somehow bridge these two concepts to create a game that is enjoyable to both camps. As I thought and wrote down some of the ideas, I realized that to approach such a game realistically, one had better stick to the grand strategy perspective, at least most of the time. It is evident that if one combines battlefield graphics and realistic army sizes of 20, 30, 40,000 or even more, most modern computers will be brought to a standstill. AI is also a problem in this case, as many RTW players very well know.

This meant that I had to solve warfare in a different way. Although the battlefield arena with 40k men is not viable, neither does the abstract way feel realistic, especially since the gamer has no control whatsoever on the battle. Hence I came up with a different approach.

All the other game concepts are also tackled. The final objective, as I have already said, is to create as realistic a game as possible. This does not mean that the game will be determined by scripted historical events (though allowing the user to have the choice of activating historical scripts wouldn't be a bad idea). It means that the core gameplay mechanics have to be realistic.

The game design as it stands now is quite complex; more complex than either RTW or Rome:EU. Many of the central game concepts and mechanics do not appear in either, such as the warfare system, military logistics and supply, the objective system and campaigning system, detailed economy (an emphasis on agriculture), advanced diplomatic/faction relationship concepts, and more.

A word on the time period. The intention is to model the period 396 BC - ~0 AD, starting right after the fall of Veii to the Romans, with Rome essentially possessing only two major cities. Though tentatively named Roma, the game will not merely focus on the Romans. You should be able to enjoy controlling most if not all other nations, which are to be depicted as accurately as possible, using historical sources. Obviously, some blanks have to be filled in with hypothetical information, but we would make this known if possible.

I have created a very preliminary game design document with much more details than I have mentioned here, ~11 pages long, which I'd give to anyone interested enough to help. I apologize but I am not going to post this here for obvious reasons. If you want to know any more details on any particular bit you can just ask me publicly, and I'd reply best I can. However, I suggest anyone that is interested in joining to PM me with some background info on his preferred parts and skills (nothing too detailed as yet), but please read the rest first.

I expect quite a big part of the development process to be spent on the historical aspect of the game, adapting it from a game design perspective. Second most important should be AI development and programming. AI needs to be worked on big time to make the game any challenge to the serious strategy gamer. Then comes the rest, core programming, graphic design, sound engineering, etc.

My intention is that this project be a community project, free of charge when, and if, it is finally completed; but who knows? For now all I can say is that it requires the help of anyone interested enough and dedicated enough to invest some time every week on his or her section. You wouldn't be working to a tight schedule, as I expect this to be a fun project as much as a dedication, but I'd expect a great deal of teamwork and organized 'division of labor' :)

The game needs to be built from scratch, so a lot of work is required, but I believe a dedicated community can do miracles, as we've seen with some user mods :). Obviously, building a game from scratch and writing a mod are two completely different things which one cannot really compare, so I have no delusions that this will be an easy task. But I believe the challenge is worth giving a try.

So, at the moment we need:-
1) Historians or serious history buffs who would like to contribute to some or all of the following historical aspects: the culture, geography, subdivisions, military, economy, characters, technology, and events pertaining to any of the following culture groups: Celt, Italic, Greek/Hellenistic, Semitic/North African, Germanic peoples. Other smaller culture groups too. At least one person, ideally more, will be needed for each culture group, since each culture culture group is divided into several factions.
2) Everyone else is welcome, but especially anyone willing and preferably experienced in game/AI programming and also willing to help developing something unseen from scratch.

Everything else, like graphic designers, more programmers, etc., in time. Again, anyone who is willing to give it a try, PM me, even if your competencies are not exactly those that are needed right now. Thanks, and please excuse the extra-long post!

Can't help, but good luck. Sounds ambitious.

Just one question: how much micromanaging would be necessary, not necessary but recommended and/or purely optional?

Thanks.
Good question. Since the focus is on realism and gameplay, most aspects of empire building will be optionally automated. You don't expect the player to manage every aspect of army logistics, but he will be given the option to do so wherever possible. In other words, since the AI will do it for computer-controlled factions, the AI should be able to do it for you if you want to. Still, as the design stands you'll be able to micromanage down to quite a detailed level if you so desire. To give you an idea, you'll be able to manage things such as legal status of province, tributary regulations, different methods of obtaining army supplies (such as by tithe, forced buying, etc.), and so on.

I am a negative person by heart, so this is not against you, just this type of thing in general.

I dont know how far you want this to go, but looking at how long it takes a professional team as their job to churn this out, a team that isnt centralised doing it in their spare time with lower brand equipment would take years. In that time people will leave etc.

I just really doubt this will get past the preliminary stage and advise against spending money (websites etc) at this point.

But hey, best of luck! I would be interested!

I am a negative person too, as it happens. Yes it will take years, and I don't really want to spend money as yet. But being many will help. I know of someone who attempted this alone and managed to get halfway through in something like 3 or 4 years. If the team is made of 10 members, theoretically the work should take much less, maybe not ten times less, but less.

I have always dreamed of making my own game, but I would have no idea where to start. Do you have any sort of experience with this sort of thing?

And while I do not want to attack this project, can it really be achieved without spending some cash? Are there programmes you can download for free which allow you to make your own games (and can you tell me where to get them - I've got a big summer holiday coming up)?

I'd be interested in helping with the history side, but unfortunately I don't know an awful lot about the Roman-era, I'm more into medieval history.

Best of luck anyway!:2thumbsup:

I'm interested also, but I am very lazy to do something

Good luck, you have a good idea out there!

Well, basically you create games by programming them in C++. I have some C++ skill, but have never done visual programming myself. I wouldn't be main programmer in this case, though I could certainly help with gameplay algorithms etc, cause I'm a mathematician.

Right now what I'm doing is some basic research on government types, and finding out which were the main settlements, separating areas into provinces etc. From the few weeks I've been doing this I have learnt quite a lot on those times, and tried to adapt it to a gameplay point of view.

To get a basic idea on how land is separated, this is a partially completed edit of a map of South Italy, showing the different provinces, colored according to faction. There are obviously many more factions than you find in your typical strategy game. In this map there are provinces controlled by Magna Graecia, Rome, Latins, Brutti, Lucani, 3 different Samnite tribes, Frentani, Carthaginians, Elymians, and others.

https://img227.imageshack.us/img227/...thitalyuu8.jpg

Btw, the cities of Magna Graecia are independent, as they actually were. They often fought each other, but would often unite against a common enemy, which I'm modelling with a concept I call "war brethren".

Possibly going a little too far out of the original scope here, but is this going to be truly free software. By this I mean open source rather than simple freeware.

Considering the way your going to do this, open source sounds like the best overall option. There are several other open source strategy games such as FreeCiv and FreeCol which you may be interested in talking to the teams of, or, if you find it useful, take bits from their code when relevant.

Do bear in mind that if you do this there may be some restrictions. For example, FreeCiv demands that any code derived from it must be released under a specific licence (the GNU General Public License). For details you'll have to read the entire licensing agreement.

It sounds like an ambitious and very interesting product though. Good luck with it :2thumbsup:

Out of curiosity. What graphic engine you are thinking of using at this stage?

A word of advice: Use version control from the moment you start any coding. SubVersion is fairly easy to setup and use, and is free. It will minimize the risk of losing any files due to forgetfulness, and people leaving.

Ups. sorry

LorDBula, as I said, I wouldn't be main programmer here so I was expecting someone with a better understanding of graphics programming to tackle that subject. I can help with algorithms and modelling (basically any stuff that requires C++ up to object oriented programming, without delving into the visual side), but I would leave the main programming to someone else. Obviously, that hinges on whether I can find that someone else.

So please if anyone is interested say so or PM me. I need to see whether I'm going to forget the whole thing or go ahead. A programmer would definitely be most welcome. And two or three historians.

Btw, thanks Bovi I will keep that in mind. And as for freeware vs. open source, I really have no preference at the moment, though I'd rather have an organized effort than bits and pieces going around.

Any help?

Definitely an ambitious project. Good luck with it. :2thumbsup:

If it's still on the table after Wars of the Diadochi is released (which will probably be a while yet), I'd definitely consider filling the military historian role (my specialty is classical / hellenistic weapons and armor).