Later Polybian armies

Just to clarify, in this context by "later" I mean Second Punic Wars and onwards. The crisis point here is that a number of formerly allied Italian communities defected to Hannibal, and were no longer relied upon to provide troops in their traditional forms after that point. The Samnites and Bruttians in particular.

Which causes a problem for someone like me who makes heavy use of those troops to balance out the socii alae with genuinely non-Roman troops, but who is also interested in historically-accurate composition. There isn't a lot written about the Italian/Latin allies, and it's often assumed they were equipped pretty similarly to the Romans they fought alongside.

But what I don't want to do is just recruit a nearly-all-Roman army, even if the Italians were similar. It offends my sense of variety, and I find an all-Roman army boring. It's bad enough that the trend of standardisation is taken to it's ultimate conclusion in post-Marian troops without having to suffer that earlier as well.

Problem is we don't have "Italic hastati", "Italic principes", "Italic triarii" and so on. I'm not arguing we should have them, they'd be a waste of three or more unit slots just to have slightly different skins but identical stats. What I would like though, are some ideas as to what units I could recruit instead.

I'm tempted to pretend the Bruttian infantry are "Italic hastati" because they're not far off, even if the real Bruttians were disloyal. But there isn't an easy principes-analogue since the Samnite Heavy Infantry vanish with the Polybian reform. Are there any other heavy swordsmen that would work in that slot? Are Neitos too much of a stretch?

I often don't bother with allies in the third line, but are there any spear units that would make an appropriate triarii-analogue?

Thoughts?

Hoplitai from Taras possibly? I don't know if Romani can recruit them but Quarthadast and Epirotes can.

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Originally Posted by strategos alexandros

Hoplitai from Taras possibly? I don't know if Romani can recruit them but Quarthadast and Epirotes can.

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They were certainly who I used in my Camillian armies as allied spearmen.

I would mod the Samnites in.

Actually that is a lie, I use alex so I'd make new units:laugh4:

There is no other unit with chain mail for the Romans save for the Neitos (what you should not use). The only way to create a Polybian allied army is by using Brutti only for both Hastati and Principes, and the Hastati Samnitici as Triarii.

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Originally Posted by konny

There is no other unit with chain mail for the Romans save for the Neitos (what you should not use). The only way to create a Polybian allied army is by using Brutti only for both Hastati and Principes, and the Hastati Samnitici as Triarii.

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That's kind of what I was thinking. Not a brilliant solution though, as you say there isn't really anyone in mail as a good analogue to the principes. Doesn't help so much with the variety angle, either, since you end up with twice the amount of Bruttians you might otherwise.

Does the classification the game uses for troops (Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Spearmen, etc) matter? I ask because the Bruttians and Samnite Hastati are both classed as Light Infantry, whereas principes are Heavy Infantry and triarii Spearmen.

Out of interest, does anyone use Neitos in their armies? I'm always tempted not to recruit them until the Marian era as heavy Gallic allies.

Something else I tend to do is "provincialise" my legions stationed elsewhere, substituting the Italians for regional variations rather than keep replacing losses. In Spain for example Iberian Caetrati make reasonable hastati-analogues.

Have you looked at the mod Paeninsula Italica - Radices Imperii

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=81282

I don't know how accurate these are but they do look nice.

To create an accurate Roman legion we need someone to make an EB Roman mini mod, as has been done to RTR Platinum. Maybe the Camillan reforms should be scraped and more Italian infantry units introduced, to simulate the different Italian and Latin Hastati, Principe and Triari.

Like many of you I try to diversify as much as I can my legions by adding Exraordinarii, Samniti Milites and Hastati, Bruttians and Lucanian infantry, and the Hoplites:wall: , with my Camillan or Polybian Legions.

What we need is an Eb mini mod.
Cheers.

Since many of the Italian allies fought with the same types of equiptment, tactics, and training as "Roman" units, in EB the Hastati, Principes, and Triarii available outside of Roma actually represent allies as well. They could have their own units with different skins, but that would take up more unit slots so EB decided to represent allies that fought the same a Romans with the same unit. If their were unlimited unit spaces I'm possitive that EB would already have variation amongst the Italian allies, but we are stuck in the engine...

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Originally Posted by Reno Melitensis

To create an accurate Roman legion we need someone to make an EB Roman mini mod, as has been done to RTR Platinum. Maybe the Camillan reforms should be scraped and more Italian infantry units introduced, to simulate the different Italian and Latin Hastati, Principe and Triari.

Like many of you I try to diversify as much as I can my legions by adding Exraordinarii, Samniti Milites and Hastati, Bruttians and Lucanian infantry, and the Hoplites:wall: , with my Camillan or Polybian Legions.

What we need is an Eb mini mod.
Cheers.

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The only way you could free up space in the Roman roster would be to remove the Camillian troops - that's six slots right away.

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

Since many of the Italian allies fought with the same types of equiptment, tactics, and training as "Roman" units, in EB the Hastati, Principes, and Triarii available outside of Roma actually represent allies as well. They could have their own units with different skins, but that would take up more unit slots so EB decided to represent allies that fought the same a Romans with the same unit. If their were unlimited unit spaces I'm possitive that EB would already have variation amongst the Italian allies, but we are stuck in the engine...

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Indeed, the old unit limitation. But as I said in the OP, I'm not disputing that, I'm just after ideas on what units I could use to get around that.

Maybe you could encourage someone to make a minimod that adds allied italian hastati, principes, triarii from another mod (with permission) as well as other italian regionals? There really isn't anything that can be used as allied Italians in EB...

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Indeed, the old unit limitation.

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If i understood correctly what has been said in another thread there still are some unit slots left. The team just didn't want to fill them because the unit limit in M2TW is the same for a greater number of factions and they wouldn't want to leave units out which were in EB 1. If that is right, it should be no problem to add a handful of units to your personal modification.

Edit: When using ALX there shouldn't be a problem at all, as it has a higher unit limit.

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Originally Posted by Lysimachos

If i understood correctly what has been said in another thread there still are some unit slots left. The team just didn't want to fill them because the unit limit in M2TW is the same for a greater number of factions and they wouldn't want to leave units out which were in EB 1. If that is right, it should be no problem to add a handful of units to your personal modification.

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Weren't there buggy issues if you started filling up the roster? How many slots are left for the Romans?

My solution to the Latin allies problem is to pretend that Rorarii are Italian light infantry (Hastati equivalent).

Then Bruttian infantry can be used as Principes equivalents, and Samnite Heavy Infanty as Triarii equivalents.

From what I can figure out, Rorarii were deployed behind the Triarii in combat. Since 'going to the Triarii' wasn't a regular occurrence in Roman battles, the Rorarii must have been used even less often. Most likely they were the camp guard and hardly ever got into the action.

So I don't regret 'losing' the Rorarii from the Roman legion and giving them to the Italians.

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

My solution to the Latin allies problem is to pretend that Rorarii are Italian light infantry (Hastati equivalent).

Then Bruttian infantry can be used as Principes equivalents, and Samnite Heavy Infanty as Triarii equivalents.

From what I can figure out, Rorarii were deployed behind the Triarii in combat. Since 'going to the Triarii' wasn't a regular occurrence in Roman battles, the Rorarii must have been used even less often. Most likely they were the camp guard and hardly ever got into the action.

So I don't regret 'losing' the Rorarii from the Roman legion and giving them to the Italians.

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Problem there, aside from rorarii lacking the right equipment is that you can't recruit them after you've had the Polybian reforms. Rorarii, if they were still available make a good representation of volones - camp slaves who were occasionally armed.

Are there any old skins for Roman troops that could be re-used as Italic Polybians?

I believe there are roughly 40 slots free in EB1 for you to play with.

In fact, some minor re-working of existing units might work for skins, rather than someone having to do completely new ones.

For example:
-For "Italic hastati" you could alter the Bruttian Infantry slightly, to give them a different shield. Or take the Camillian principes, and replace their spear with a sword.
-For "Italic principes" you could take the Samnite Medium Spearmen, replace their shield and spear. This is a harder one since they have to be wearing decent body armour.
-For "Italic triarii" you could take the Camillian triarii and give them a different shield.

Other alternatives for mail-armoured units to steal the skin from include the Libyan Heavy Spearman (although they have two greaves and no baldric), or Thorakitai (again two greaves, possibly better for triarii, Ptolemaic or Koinon Hellenon variants look the most Roman).

I've started a new thread for anyone who might be interested in this as a minimod.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Problem there, aside from rorarii lacking the right equipment is that you can't recruit them after you've had the Polybian reforms. Rorarii, if they were still available make a good representation of volones - camp slaves who were occasionally armed.

Are there any old skins for Roman troops that could be re-used as Italic Polybians?

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Sorry, I missed the Polybian part of your post. I was talking about Camillian.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

The only way you could free up space in the Roman roster would be to remove the Camillian troops - that's six slots right away.

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If you are going to delete Roman units to make room for early allied units, you should consider to drop the Imperial line-up what you won't see in most of your Roman campaigns (seriously, who plays beyond Marian times?). The Camillans are needed because the army of the Pyrrhic War was not the same as the one of the Second Punic War.

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Originally Posted by konny

If you are going to delete Roman units to make room for early allied units, you should consider to drop the Imperial line-up what you won't see in most of your Roman campaigns (seriously, who plays beyond Marian times?). The Camillans are needed because the army of the Pyrrhic War was not the same as the one of the Second Punic War.

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As it turns out, from what blacksnail said there's room anyway, so there's no need to be deleting anyone.