Roman players: What armies do you use?

I often see people talking about how they find Medium battle difficulty too easy, and thus go for the harder levels. But what I never see is any mention of what armies they're recruiting, and how they're using them.

I half-suspect that the people who say that recruit stacks composed almost entirely of principes for their infantry, accensi for skirmishers and the odd few triarii and cavalry. Or perhaps a group of family members for their cavalry. Based entirely on effectiveness, rather than versimilitude.

Mine is as close as I can get to a proper consular army in one stack. As detailed in my guide, thus:

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Camillian
The Roman core of a Camillian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Leves
1 unit of Accensi
1 unit of Rorarii
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii
1 unit of Equites

The two socii alae are composed as follows:
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry, or pedites extraordinarii)
1 unit of classical hoplites
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Polybian
The Roman core of a Polybian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Velites
1 unit of Accensi
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii (or two if you're playing with half-sized maniples)
1 unit of Equites

The two socii alae are composed as follows:
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian, Gallic, or Iberian infantry, or pedites extraordinarii)
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Marian
The Roman core of a Marian army is as follows:
1st Legion
1 General
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of antesignani

2nd Legion
1 tribune
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of cohors evocata

Support
1 unit of Scorpions/arrow throwers

The allied part is as follows:
1 unit of allied javelin-men
1 unit of allied slingers or archers
1 unit of allied cavalry
Optional: 2 units of allied close-order foot

This represents two legions and their supporting artillery, light troops, cavalry and allied infantry. Feel free to add additional support units. A third legion can be presented by adding three more cohorts as above.

An option for early post-Marian troops is to have just the First Cohort and two normal cohorts as one legion, since there were as yet no veterans to draw upon.

Disposition
Camillian and Polybian armies should be deployed in the triplex acies, three lines giving strength in depth and keeping most of your forces in reserve. Marian forces can be deployed in three, two or even one line as befits the situation.

Key:
Gen - The general
FM - Family member
Tri - Triarii (or allied hoplites)
Pri - Principes
Has - Hastati
Ski - Accensi/Leves/Velites
Ror - Roraii
ASk - Allied Skirmisher
ALI - Allied Light Infantry
AHI - Allied Heavy Infantry
Cav - Cavalry

Camillian and Polybian

----ASk----Ski----Ski----ASk
Cav-----ALI----Has----Has----ALI----FM/Cav
----AHI-----Pri-----Pri-----AHI
--------Ror-----Tri-----Tri-----Gen

Placement of the General varies, as long as he's behind the fighting line it doesn't really matter. The only difference between Camillian and Polybian armies is the absence of the Rorarii.

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Thus my hastati and the allied light infantry get chewed up holding the line in every battle, while my second line tends to take quite light casualties.

What about you? Do you have a "standard army"? Do you use a standard deployment of some description?

I usually play on hard difficulty for battles. I haven't played the Romans in a long time but last time I did my standard field army was this:

3 Hastati, 3 Principes, 1 triarii, 2 cavalry, 1 general. I then take at least 1 skirmisher unit, sometimes 2. Alternately I take one skirmisher and one auxillary unit for fun.

After Marian it was the same but with 8 legionaries, 2 cav, 1 general, 1 skirmisher (bullet sponge).

I never field armies larger than 12 units (general included) for most factions. Combined with hard difficulty it tends to make battles much more interesting. When you fight the typical AI partially full stack (~16 units) it at least makes things interesting.. when you fight full stacks of elites it makes for a good fight, especially when you'er lacking good auxiliary cavalry.

I usually double your army, Quintus. I go with 2 Leves, 2 Accesnci, 2 Rorarii, 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii, and a FM or two, depending on how many armies I've got and who's serving time in the military.

Edit- I don't like losing and this is still pretty accurate. I based my army off of Peter Connelly's Greece and Rome at War.

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Originally Posted by lobf

I usually double your army, Quintus. I go with 2 Leves, 2 Accesnci, 2 Rorarii, 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii, and a FM or two, depending on how many armies I've got and who's serving time in the military.

Edit- I don't like losing and this is still pretty accurate. I based my army off of Peter Connelly's Greece and Rome at War.

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With later Polybian armies that might be accurate (given Italian/Latin troops were probably much the same as Roman ones), but if half your army isn't allied (ie non-Roman) troops, then it isn't accurate.

I think no matter what faction you play, it's always a good idea to play with mostly 8-10 unit stacks, never full, sometimes 12-14.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

With later Polybian armies that might be accurate (given Italian/Latin troops were probably much the same as Roman ones), but if half your army isn't allied (ie non-Roman) troops, then it isn't accurate.

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I should have mentioned that in Camillian times I use about half allies (Bruttians substituted for hastati, allied medium spearmen for principes.)

Edit: I never saw the allied addition to the Camillian stack until now somehow. I'll definitely use that setup next time.

I follow your setup Quintus. I believe you when you state it's historically correct and it works like a charm. I like the diversity of the units used.

Btw: I moved away from trying to use the number of men as legions in the game as to reality ie. 3 and a half fullstack. Two legions in my game is now also one full stack ;-)
With my earlier setup I could easily wipe out a smaller faction within a few turns: no fun indeed

My Camillan legion:
Commanders: 1 General (Consul or Praetor), 1 Younger FM (Tribun Milita)
Roman legion: 1 Leves, 1 Accensi, 1 Hastati, 1 Principes, 1 Triarii, 1 Rorarii
Allied Ala: 1 Leves, 1 Accensi, 1 Pezoi Bruttioi, 1 Hastati Samnitici, 1 Hoplites, 1 Rorarii

- together 14 units, two such legions (minus accensi) form one full stack consular army, but I have never needed to use one (I play on H/H)

My Polybian legion:
Commanders: 1 General (Consul or Praetor), 1 Younger FM (Tribun Milita)
Roman legion: 1 Velites, 1 Hastati, 1 Principes, 1 Triarii
AND
Allied Ala Italian: 1 Accensi, 1 Pezoi Bruttioi, 1 Hastati Samnitici, Pedites Extraordinarii, (opitional Equites Campanici)
OR
Allied Ala Gallic: Gallic Slingers, 1 Gallic Sworsmen, 1-2 Gallic Spearmen, 1 Gallic Light Cavalry
OR
Allied Ala Syracusan: 1 Akontistai, 1 Peltastai, 3 Syracusan Hoplites

- together 10-11 units, exact half-stack, two such legions form one full stack consular army, but I rarely have to use one

Generally, I do not use Equites, I think that (historically rather weak) Roman cavalry is better represented by young FMs and their companions who act as cavalry proper. I rarely use the commanding general in offensive/flanking cavalry role. His task is stay behind the lines, issue orders and bolster the morale of his troops. :2cents:

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

What about you? Do you have a "standard army"? Do you use a standard deployment of some description?

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I think I've used your recommended setup since sometime in 2005.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Camillian
The Roman core of a Camillian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Leves
1 unit of Accensi
1 unit of Rorarii
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii 2 units of Triarii
1 unit of Equites

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That looks better.

I thought Triarii maniples were half-strength.

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Originally Posted by lobf

I thought Triarii maniples were half-strength.

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Polybian ones, yes, Camillian ones, no.

Weren't there fewer, full-sized maniples in the Camillian, where the Polybian had more, half-sized ones?

I usually just use 1 General, 5 Hastati, 5 Principes, 2 Triarii, 2 Cav med-heavy, 2 light cav, 2 assorted flanking units most often being mercenaries. Then i have one slot free for whatever. Sometimes i do some changes. Less cav in favour of more archers/slinger. But that is the mainstay of my forces for my Camillan-Polibyan.


mer.inf--Has--has--has--has--has--mer.inf
................prin-prin-prin-prin-prin
.......................tri--gen---tri
.

...............cav cav l.cav l.cav

:2cents:

I guess my approach is a hybrid between hyper-accuracy and gameplay taste. For the record, I play at M battle difficulty and have no complaints; I win because I know what I'm doing, but my units do get chewed up pretty regularly. Even lost a battle one time (one legion without a general, trying to hold a bridge against a half-stack of Ptolemaic phalanx units).

My "legion" build is as follows:

2 hastati, 2 principes, 1 triarii; general; 1 missile unit, 1 javelin unit; 1 non-general cavalry unit. Sometimes toss in one extra regional heavy infantry, almost always merc pezhetairoi when I'm fighting in Greece or Egypt (though I think I've used merc Gallic swordsmen from time to time in the Cisalpine Gaul/Noricum area, and sometimes merc scutari in Spain).

When I say "hastati" I mean some combination of Camillan, Samnite, and Polybian; when I say "principes" I mean some combination of Camillan, Pedites Extraordinarii, and Polybian. Once I start a 1.1 campaign I'm sure the new Bruttian fellows will slot in appropriately (I'm guessing they're hastati-ish).

"Missile unit" is some regional long range unit, accensi at the start but later it could be Balearic, that nasty Celtic slinger, those Celtic archers (Sotaroas?), or potentially any number of archer models if I get into the East. Never toxotai, because they suck so much. ~:)

Likewise "javelin unit" is whatever is regionally available, leves, akontistai, peltasts (mmm, peltasts...), numidians, etc. Never velites, again because they suck.

"Cavalry", again somewhat variable. Equites Extraordinarii are the ideal, of course, but Eq. Romani, the new Campanian guys from 1.0, Hippeis, even those poorly armored Illyrican guys sometimes. Whatever's handy when I form the legion. If I don't have a general I sometimes double up on the cavalry, one Extraordinarii and one lesser cav.

I really don't see the point of having rorarii on the battlefield, to me those guys are just early game garrison units.

I find the historical Roman checkerboard formation unworkable in the RTW engine, so I just form a line with the non-triarii heavy infantry, missile units in front, triarii and general in reserve behind, pretty normal setup. A single of my legions is an easy to use half-stack; two legions plus a bit more merc/regional troops make a full stack that's not terribly cumbersome.

I quit my longest-running Rome campaign (0.8) around 203BC, so Marians remain just a dream to me... ~:(

I'm probably the only person who doesn't even bother with historical army composition.:smash:

I use ad-hoc armies. Whatever I have recruited, I'll pull together into an army.:shame:

And that is isn't ahistorical at all, because these "historical compositions" is what the Legions looked liked when just raised. Give them some years campaign in Spain for example and they will look much different with a lot of Roman casualities replaced by locals.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Weren't there fewer, full-sized maniples in the Camillian, where the Polybian had more, half-sized ones?

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The opposite:

Camillan Maniple: 60 men (plus 20 Leves for each Maniple of Hastati), Triarii, Rorarii and Accensi were organized in Ordi with the strength of 3 Maniples each. = 75 Maniples + Leves + cavalry

Polybian Maniple: 120 men (plus 40 Velites for each Maniple of Hastati) = 30 Maniples + Velties + cavalry

Take a look at the folowing link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_infantry_tactics
very interesting... a detalied and complex explanation of roman battle tatics, formation variations, etc... everything you should know.

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Originally Posted by konny

The opposite:

Camillan Maniple: 60 men (plus 20 Leves for each Maniple of Hastati), Triarii, Rorarii and Accensi were organized in Ordi with the strength of 3 Maniples each. = 75 Maniples + Leves + cavalry

Polybian Maniple: 120 men (plus 40 Velites for each Maniple of Hastati) = 30 Maniples + Velties + cavalry

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I meant specifically triarii maniples. It's been expressly stated in many places that Polybian triarii maniples were half the size of the other maniples.

So for a Camillian army you should have triarii units the same size as that of hastati and principes, but half as many units. Whereas in Polybian armies the units are half the size, but you have as many of them as you do hastati and principes.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

So for a Camillian army you should have triarii units the same size as that of hastati and principes, but half as many units.

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No. There are as many Triarii in a Camillan army as there are Principes. Makes: 2-2-2 (plus light and cavalry).

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Whereas in Polybian armies the units are half the size, but you have as many of them as you do hastati and principes.

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Using 80 men units of infantry (on hughe size) doesn't make sense in EB, so you should have: 2-2-1 (plus light and cavalry) in Polybian times.

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Originally Posted by konny

No. There are as many Triarii in a Camillan army as there are Principes. Makes: 2-2-2 (plus light and cavalry).

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Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by konny

Using 80 men units of infantry (on hughe size) doesn't make sense in EB, so you should have: 2-2-1 (plus light and cavalry) in Polybian times.

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Makes perfect sense, 80-man units of infantry in two blocks work just fine.

Wow I can't believe you guys use such small armies! If I did that I'd feel so understrength, congrats for all getting good enough to use 8 or so stacks armies! For my current Camillan layout I have...

1 FM
2 Campanian Cavalry, 1 deployed on each flank
2 Triarii, 1 deployed on each flank in front of the cavalry
2 principes and 4 hastati make up the two lines of pure killdom i inflict on enemies. principes are there in case the triarii cant confront cavalry.
2 toxotai in front of the front line of infantry, fall back to middle line or further once battle closes

I think you're setup is good Sertorius, and I use it with one small alteration in that I have 7 allied infantry (inlcuding 2 skirmishers). I use: 2 different pairs of infantry depending on theatre(preferably one heavy and one light) 2 skirmishers depending on theatre, and some pedites extraordinarii becuase they formed a fifth of the line infantry in a real army.

I would however like to see more allied units like those in RTR, not neccesarily lots of different weponary etc.. but jsut mor colours, variety in the roman armies which I find at times bland.

More recently I have started using the pedites extraordinarii as additional allies, rather than counting them in the four units of line infantry. Often held in reserve with the general.

On your point about variety of allies, I've started a mini-mod thread about exactly that. One of the things I liked most about v1.1 was the appearance of the Bruttian infantry, who make a brilliant pairing to the hastati in the first rank.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

More recently I have started using the pedites extraordinarii as additional allies, rather than counting them in the four units of line infantry. Often held in reserve with the general.

On your point about variety of allies, I've started a mini-mod thread about exactly that. One of the things I liked most about v1.1 was the appearance of the Bruttian infantry, who make a brilliant pairing to the hastati in the first rank.

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I saw and whilst I can't offer assistance, I will be one of the first to join your EB-lution of the Romani on it's release.

(god how bad was that joke)

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Originally Posted by Long lost Caesar

Wow I can't believe you guys use such small armies!

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Small? A Consular army for me is a full stack including three FMs in Polybian times:

Staff:
- Consul
- Quaestor
- Military Tribune

Roman Legion(s):
Accensi
Velites
Hastati
Hastati
Principes
Principes
Triarii
Eqvites Romani

Allied Legion(s):
Accensi
Velites
Hastati
Hastati
Principes
Principes
Triarii
Pedites Extraordinarii
Eqvites Extraordinarii

Costs: around 6,000 mne upkeep per turn

Provincial armies:

Staff:
- Praetor
- Quaestor (usually not in the field but preventing the provincial capital from roiting during the absence of the Praetor)
- Military Tribune

Accensi
Velites
Hastati
Hastati
Principes
Principes
Triarii
Eqvites Romani
Avxilia (usually archers)

Costs: around 2,500 mne upkeep per turn

Plus further Avxilia composed of the garrisons from the non-Roman population, depending always on the size and income of the respective towns.