Death of the Spartans

A sad day for me as my previously all-conquering KH army, victor in several large battles against Macedon, was defeated and my faction leader killed.

The army included four generals, three with Spartan hoplites and one with Athenian hoplites. All with triple bronze experience chevrons. Add to that a couple of levy hoplites, skirmishers, heavy peltasts, slingers and Cretan archers.

They were up against a nearly-full stack of Macedonians. Who had two generals with Companian cavalry bodyguards.

And those generals and their heavy cavalry were unstoppable. They outflanked me and attacked my levy hoplites. Now the Companians were elites and the levy hoplites miltia, but still, horsemen against spearmen, I thought I had a chance.

Nope. Those levy hoplites turned and ran like rabbits after the Macedonian charge. My heavy peltasts and missle troops failed to stop them either, and eventually had to withdraw from the field after running out of missiles.

My Spartans and Athenians were getting the better of the Macedonian hoplites and heavy skirmishers, and the enemy phalangites were very hesitant about getting into the action.

Then the blasted Macedonian heavy cavalry charged my Spartans from behind, and caused immense slaughter even though I turned to face the charge. Then they stayed in melee, hacking down the disrupted Spartans. Eventually my faction leader was killed, and soon after even the Spartans broke.

What a disaster! The beaten remnants of my army retreated to Athens, and the Macedonians immediately pursued and put the city under siege.

I don't know how I'm going to get out of this mess....Athens might be doomed!

How can I kill those Macedonian bodyguard cavalry when even Spartans can't stand up to them? (And I was playing Medium battle difficulty, too....)

Rough position. Either reload or try and recruit another army from your remaining provinces. Sounds like your game is getting fun! :2thumbsup:

Well there is your problem right there. You were relying on levy hoplites for something other than garrison duty. Get some better troops to protect your flanks. Heck you could even use Spartans for the flanks and classical Hoplites for your center. Also always keep the flank units in pairs and in guard mode. When one is charged attack the flank of the cavalry with the other. You should be able to cause some serious damage to any attacking cavalry.

In my Baktrian campaign I use at least 2 units of Thureophoroi or Thorakitai to protect each flank.

Awesome, it sounds like the AI used cavalry properly!

Did you have your spearmen in Guard mode? It seems that spearmen will last longer in defense if guard mode is on. I once had a unit of Arab Light Infantry (which are much weaker in melee than hoplites) in Guard mode that resisted a head on charge by some Seulucid Bodyguards. I am not *sure* that was because they were in guard mode, rather than being a head on change )(instead of a flanking attack.) I'll have to look into this.

If the worst comes to pass, you could abandon your efforts in Greece and start a migration campaign, KH is has some nice options all over the Mediterranean and Black Sea.

Edit: Ack! Xurr beat me to the punch. Oh well...

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

My heavy peltasts and missle troops failed to stop them either, and eventually had to withdraw from the field after running out of missiles.

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:furious3:
Here's why you lost, your heavy, and even light skirmishers, and your cretan archers should have joined the fight instead of withdrawing, they are very capable fighters!:sweatdrop:

Also the companion cavalry are basically the *best* over-all shock cavalry unit out there. Sorry Parthians but yeah you lose to the might of sheer Companion ferociousness + relative mobility + quality equipment - even though your moustache might disagree ? :grin:

I remember well how tough those Macedonian heavies were from some my nuisance campaign with a mercenary army in Greece in 1.0. The only thing that would put a dent in them was heavy pila. They'd outfight triarii, principes, anyone who didn't have AP weapons.

I'm quite keen to see how those heroes the pedites extraordinarii do against them. They're heavily armoured and have AP weapons to boot.

im surprised, i usually used my generals, mainly Akrotatos, who had spartan bodygaurds to defeat their heavy calvary, before i lost all my saved games that is.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Also the companion cavalry are basically the *best* over-all shock cavalry unit out there. Sorry Parthians but yeah you lose to the might of sheer Companion ferociousness + relative mobility + quality equipment - even though your moustache might disagree ? :grin:

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I dunno a charge from Hetairoi Kataphraktoi would really do some damage to companion cavalry. In melee it would be a missmatch too as the Hetairoi Kataphraktoi have far superior armor. Sure Companion Cavalry have better mobility but you can always pin them with skirmisher cavalry to let the heavy Kataphraktoi catch up.

The converse is true also; but the Hetairoi have the distinct benefit of speed.

Do not overestimate Hetairoir Kataphraktoi. They look very 'we are king of the field' but their relative low numbers (they are a general's bg after all) and the fact you can 'recruit' them (for the same reason) does a pretty good job of nullifying this. They are no more king than Parthian Elite Cataphracts (who btw will all other things being equal beat the HK hands down), and then I am not talking about the late ones yet. Those are king; but not the best cavalry around -- cost effectiveness and speed are qualities which make quality cavalry stand out so much...

There are Athenian hoplites in EB?

Athenian General's BG.

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Originally Posted by lobf

Athenian General's BG.

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Oh. :inquisitive: Hmm, well, maybe I'm too used to cavalry bodyguards and need to pay more attention to these things.

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Here's why you lost, your heavy, and even light skirmishers, and your cretan archers should have joined the fight instead of withdrawing, they are very capable fighters!

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Thoroughly agree on the Peltastai. They slaughter Hoplitai Haploi with little difficulty.
Still not going to make much of a dent in Makedonian/Seleukid Somatophylakes though .
Other skirmishers are generally fairly cheap to replenish losses & can hold/distract an enemy for crucial seconds in a pinch.

Actually my 160 heavy peltasts were caught as they withdrew by the Companion Cavalry, and lasted quite a long time in melee, killing half the enemy horsemen. But when my 240 light skirmishers tried to help, they didn't last two minutes before routing off the field like girls.

My highly-experienced Kretan archers, (only a half-sized unit due to previous losses) considering themselves to be mercenaries, decided that they weren't being paid enough to die in a hopeless melee battle against enemy cavalry, and withdrew to fight another day. The slingers, also out of ammo, followed the Kretans' lead.

Can't really blame them, they're light troops.

YOU SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT ON THE HILL TOP!!!!!!!!!!!

thats why u lost. U can't expect your levyes and skermishers to hold on a flat ground, :dizzy2:

you actually thaught the levy hoplites would stand vs. Hetairoi? several battles have shown that Hetairoi can defeat and kill all pantodapoi, levy hoplite, and even levy phalangites given the chance. youdon't even need that many hetairoi; 13 hetairoi of mine routed 40 levy hoplites with more experiance in minutes (in Syria an Ambush by Eleutheroi, playing as AS).

you shouldn't have had any levies as well in the first place..oh well.

use your elite spartans to kill their cavalry. it is that simple. levies, even with +4 bonus, doesn't do much vs 30 defense, where half of that is armor. your elite spearmen generals should eat macedon's for breakfast, unless you let them ram you up from behind. never leave your hopolites in defense formation, cavalries easily circle them after the initial charge, their formation is just too tight. it is good for wall breaches or narrow street fights but not in the open plains.

ps: off topic, when you select hopolites or phalanx with other infantry and form a line with them, they never get to where the yellow marker indicates(hopolites likes to run to it's left or right of the markers, phalanx always 3 rows behind the yellow markers while the officers get it right), always need a 2nd or 3rd placement order :( will this be fix?

@OT: No, it's something related to the RTW engine which we can't fix without 'fixing' the binary files.

When I play a Hellenic faction, all I used for main infantry until about 250 BC are my Hapless Haploi - I conquered many many places with them!

I would guess that your problem was the amount of experience those generals had.
Several command stars and silver chevrons can cause a hell of a party if you don't deal with those generals immediately, or have an immense wing of cavalry yourself.

If that wasn't the case - bad luck!

I myself have never launched a campaign into enemy territory without something like that occurring! Everyone else says it's fun! Bah!

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Originally Posted by Glenn

When I play a Hellenic faction, all I used for main infantry until about 250 BC are my Hapless Haploi - I conquered many many places with them!

I would guess that your problem was the amount of experience those generals had.
Several command stars and silver chevrons can cause a hell of a party if you don't deal with those generals immediately, or have an immense wing of cavalry yourself.

If that wasn't the case - bad luck!

I myself have never launched a campaign into enemy territory without something like that occurring! Everyone else says it's fun! Bah!

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Hehe I had that happen in my first Romani campaign. I sent a full stack into Sauromatae territory consisting of mainly of Camillian troops with 2 units of Roman cavalry. It was attacked by a huge horse/foot archer army. I tell you I felt like Crassus when he was defeated by the Parthians. It was awesome to actually see a little repeat of history.

I would agree with several of the above posts, definitely use the heavy peltasts in melee as flanking infantry. Also, it seems your army contained no cavalry? I know its expensive and mostly crap in Southern Greece, but even just one or two untis of the skirmisher guys is kinda essential in any "proper" army. Because only they move fast enough to easily (and repeatedly) flank enemy units. They can get large numbers of troops to any part of the battlefield to help holding the line. The actual javelins are rather pointless - and they certainly cant stand long in melee - but you will find the fact that you consequently dont commit them early, which makes sure they are always fresh when everyone else is exhausted. Combined with the heavy peltasts or a unit of proper hoplites they can usually handle a flank in the early game.

IMO levy hoplites if taken to battle should only ever be used as either a reserve (fresh vs exhausted as above) or put right in the centre (probably next to your general) in the main battle line and be used as cannon fodder to soak up charges and missile fire once you run out of akontistai. :smash: Never on the flanks. :no:

On a side note, when I played as KH, the Maks took Athens and held it for quite a few years, but as I had Corinth (fortress) and Crete (trade/archers). I was able to rebuild and eventually utterly destroy them - and then went on to conquer most of the rest of the world as well...

You get "bolossed" so what ? it happens all the time to weaklings:sweatdrop:

See what happens when you mess with all-mighty Makedonia Titus Marcellus Scato? Whahaha, you petty little Hellenes with your fancy talking an mock philosophies... Lol, just kidding anyway I think you get a little feeling of what it was like for the Hellenic poleis-krate to face a more battle-ready and cenralised kingdom even crippled by years of war!

I play on BI.exe and I must tell you the AI uses shieldwall very efficiently, as when I try to flank hoplitai for example with cavalry they tend to (about 80%) enable shieldwall and charge me... Not that I have any problems dealing with southern Hellenes though...:beam:

This is where your campaign should be getting very interesting:yes: I suggest you don't restart your campaign, rather keep playing even after you lose Athenai. Just do everythig you can to take the city back, 'cause after you are done with the Maks, your joy of crushing them will be even greater!:laugh4: