I'm thinking of starting a new KH campaign but with a twist, only fight in the classical style. That means no reformed hoplites or phalanxes, and little to no cavalry or ranged support. I was wondering how this would look with EB units that KH has.
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I'm thinking of starting a new KH campaign but with a twist, only fight in the classical style. That means no reformed hoplites or phalanxes, and little to no cavalry or ranged support. I was wondering how this would look with EB units that KH has.
Lot's of hoplitai?
Well yes, but I'm sure that there were was some sort of army compositions other than just random classical and light hoplites. I've read that they used some skirmishers, light hoplites, elites, a few cavalry, etc. I'm just not sure about the numbers
I'd say about this:
6 Hoplitai
4 Akontistai
2 Hippakontistai
2 Hippeis
2 Epilektoi Hoplitai/Spartiatai Hoplitai.
2+ Generals
depends if you want a really old school army with hoplites only or something more modern...if the latter is the case than you have also peltastai and light hoplites (can't remember the real name)
Ekdromoi.
I was looking for an army with a mix of light hoplites, hoplites, distinguished hoplites, and any other units that would be appropriate in a classical Greek army (around the Pelleponessian wars).
2 Generals [or one epilektoi extra]
6 Hoplitai
2 Epilektoi Hoplitai/Spartiatai Hoplitai.
2 Ekdromoi
4 Akontistai
2 Hippakontistai
2 Hippeis
Hmmmm, it really depends on your own taste. I would say something like:
1) 1xStrategos
2) 1xEpilektoi Hoplitai
3) 1xSpartiatai Hoplitai
4) 6xHoplitai (the regular classical ones)
5) 2xSphedonetai
6) 1xHippakontistai
7) 2xAkontistai
8) 2xToxotai
9) 4xHoplitai Haploi
Ok, now I'll anwer why I chose these units:
First of all, the elites are 3 units of hoplitai plus the strategos. Just about enough, place them on the extreme right, as historically happened, of your main battle line.
Secondly, the rest of the hoplitai make up the majority of your army (duh, anyone with some decent knowledge of classical greek armies would understand why), specifically 6 + 4 = 10 units. Why is that? Because classical greek armies deployed a traight line of hoplitai with no flank cover, they just bashed with the enemy hoplite line. Why more Hoplitai than Haploi? A decent-sized polis of classical Hellas usually depended upon her citizen hoplitai, here represented by the Hoplitai. The elites are the aristocracy, btw. They also used levied soldiers (here represented as Haploi) to usually fill the line.
As for skirmishers, or psiloi as the greeks called them, you have 2 slingers, 2 archers and 2 javelineers. So 6 units of psiloi, nottoo much and not too many. Historically the psiloi made a big part of some armies, like the Spartans (heilotes).
Lastly, cavalry. Just 1 unit? Yes, just 1 unit. Why? Because NO city-state, except Thebai or some Makedonian and Thessalian ones, did field a significant cavalry force. Even Athenai had, like 300-500 horsemen if I'm not mistaken. That's auwfully few, I tell you. And of course, their quality was (excuse me for the word) crap. Just javelin-horsemen for the most part to chase down routers or fend of enemy skirmishers. So just 1 unit of Hippakontistai.
Hope this helped you!
If you want a realistic Peloponnesian army, I wouldn't mix Epilektoi and Spartiatai.
Also, Toxotai weren't that widely used, peltastai were prefered, AFAIK.
For a more reformed one to keep up with the times
1) 1xStrategos
2) 1xEpilektoi Hoplitai
3) 2xGreek Noble Cavalry, or hippies, or hippokontistai
4) 6xHoplitai
5) 2xSphedonetai
6) 2xAkontistai
7) 2xPeltasti
8) 2xHoplitai Haploi
9).2xthose fast hoplites
1 - Who said I want a realistic Peoponnesian army?:beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
2 - No, they weren't but there are just 2 units of 'em. Peltastai where not preferred, he wants a classical (or pre-Peloponnesian) army. Peltastai would then be just ''pelte'' armed javelineers.
Wouldn't a classical hoplite army be 15 hoplites and 5 psiloi? No cavalry whatsoever. The psiloi may be optional even since I remember reading somwhere that they went without them often.
There.Quote:
was looking for an army with a mix of light hoplites, hoplites, distinguished hoplites, and any other units that would be appropriate in a classical Greek army (around the Pelleponessian wars).
Generally most armies did have some cavalry, even if it was just to harrass the left flank and carry messages. Personnally I would go with fewer archers and slingers, and fewer Haploi.
Well, I like he suggestions but should I omit Spartans if they aern't available (like in Asia Minor or Italy)? Also, what about regional variations. Would a classical Hoplite in Magna Graecia for example, look different than one on the mainland?
You could expect considerable variation in the appearance of hoplites in even one phalanx- these men buy their own gear and are dressed to impress.
Something to look forward to in EB2.
This sounds like a fun idea for a house rules game. Good luck with it. oh one suggestion though, don't go out onto the steppe with an army like this. You will only get frustrated.
What I meant was would a classical army have any differences in compostion from region to region.
The Athenians used some Skythian archers in the Peloponesian Wars IIRC, and maintained a unit as a police force in Athens.
I think the Classical Greek armies (ie 5th century) had a high proportion of hoplites but we hear about them almost to the exclusion of the others because they were the dominant politcal class in most states (rather like the way french medieval chronicles mention the numbers of knights but give scant attention to crossbows etc).
I think most of the men described in the order of battle at first Mantinea (Argos/Athens vs Sparta) seem to be Hoplites, and the Cavalry are only reffered too in passing in the narrative.
In the movie 300 is about the spartiates, but really doesn't aknowledge the 4000 nor so others in the Hellenic force. Was that force even 50% hoplites?
Maybe the political and tactical importance of these forces could be reflected by keeping hoplites in being (accumulating experience) but frequently disbanding archers and cav so they stay soft and weak.
Ok, my fault but he could be a tad more specific. If that's the case, it again depends on the exact period, meaning the beggining, mid or end of the Peloponnesian War. You see, it was so devastating fo Greece, that military reforms took place rapidly, even though the war lasted for 27 years (not that they where few, but pre-Peloponnesian armies where used for much longer than 27 years wit very few to no changes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax