Are the numbers correct in Burma?

I've seen the number of dead range from 20,000 to possibly 200,000. I'm trying not to allow my cynicism cloud my judgment, but there is a part of me thinking that unless outside agencies can confirm these #'s, I'm less likely to donate to the cause. I know that sounds harsh, but I'm not wasting money or materials on the impulse of goodwill. So here's the question...
Do you donate a little now and if the numbers are confirmed, send more? I'm kind of leaning towards this option. What will you do personally?

The fundamental problem in all of this DevDave is the number of 'missing'. This wasn't just another Katrina. The storm washed ashore in a tropical river delta where large numbers of people lived in rice paddies, at approximately -1meter sea level.

So there's up to 200,000 missing people right now. There are 20,000 corpses. Of the 200K, the majority were probably washed out to sea and are presumed dead, but not known to be. There were probably some survivors who just haven't checked in yet, but these people didn't have houses and roofs to climb on. They were living in grass huts at or slightly below sea level.

Scary stuff.

The junta apparently has confiscated the UN aid shipments that arrived today (Burma time), and intend to control the release of that aid. There are serious concerns about how the aid is going to get where it is needed, so I'm not sure donations are going to be spent properly. :shrug:

I read earlier on the UN was suspending aid till they stop robbing it so this could get ugly and quickly.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Do you donate a little now and if the numbers are confirmed, send more? I'm kind of leaning towards this option. What will you do personally?

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Sadly, I'm not remotely convinced that any aid will be spent wisely or effectively given the refusal of the military government to accept outside help. They are fine with the actual money, you understand, but they need to spend it, don't you know.

I tend to choose my giving very carefully and that often excludes disaster relief as it is invariably ineffective - at least as far as private giving goes. I don't intend to give my money to ensure the brutal dictators and their soldiers get fed or - buy more arms from the donors.

Hopefully the death toll is nowhere near the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and subsequent tsunamis.

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Do you donate a little now and if the numbers are confirmed, send more? I'm kind of leaning towards this option. What will you do personally?

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Personally I am going to give absolutely nothing whatsoever .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Personally I am going to give absolutely nothing whatsoever .

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Same here. We don't give to fascists.

'Junta' was one heck of a hurricane oh teh horrors of socialism. If they ask I give but nobody has.

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'Junta' was one heck of a hurricane oh teh horrors of socialism.

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Socialism ? I thought the previous fruitcakes had got rid of anything and anyone remotely leftist or socialist way back in the 1970s Frag and the new friutcakes were just carrying on from the previous nutters .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Socialism ? I thought the previous fruitcakes had got rid of anything and anyone remotely leftist or socialist way back in the 1970s Frag and the new friutcakes were just carrying on from the previous nutters .

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My bad totalitarism mass murder oppression lies and exreme poverty I kinda assumed they were socialists. Could blame me for not looking it up but if you ask me we should blame socialism in general for being like that.

ps,

http://www.alaskaquilt.com/images/im...n/big_fish.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fragony

http://www.alaskaquilt.com/images/im...n/big_fish.jpg

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That is one huge red herring.

Fragony, a military-style, nationalist dictatorship that preaches autarky and the triumph of the unique Burmese mentality over all odds clearly spells fascism.

Won't be Donating either.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

That is one huge red herring.

Fragony, a military-style, nationalist dictatorship that preaches autarky and the triumph of the unique Burmese mentality over all odds clearly spells fascism.

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What did North Korea do this time???

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Could blame me for not looking it up but if you ask me we should blame socialism in general for being like that.

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But they are nationalists Frag , they like to keep the minorities down because they don't seem to integrate and adopt to the correct Burmese way of life , I thought they would have been right up your street as far as regimes go .

The Chinese like 'em.

It pains me to shore up Fragony's neat and tidy view on the world, but he can claim this one as a socialist regime.

The original nutter that instituted the junta in 1962, General Ne Win, did so through creating his Burmese Socialist Programme Party which had the catchy policy of the Burmese Way to Socialism. He nationalised everything that moved down to water buffalo, shutting down all democratic institutions and eradicating the free press.

Now, discerning minds might see that these characteristics are socialist in the same way that National Socialism was, or that countries that call themselves Democratic Republics are always democratic. Not.

But in Fragony's World, he has a point.

The regime in Burma called itself Socialist until 1988, when it renamed itself 'Union of Burma' and then (1989) 'Union of Myanmar'. It is controlled by the military. There is not even a socialist party. The old BSPP re-formed itself into the National Unity Party in 1988. It's ideology is fervent nationalism, mitigated by institutionalised corruption.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

But in Fragony's World, he has a point.

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He is also the only one who lives there.

For me, its not a good idea. I think the government will use the funds for other things.

If you don't want to play in the International playground, then don't expect money when things go wrong.

Do nothing: people will suffer.
Give money: prople will still suffer.
Invade: people will suffer.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

But they are nationalists Frag , they like to keep the minorities down because they don't seem to integrate and adopt to the correct Burmese way of life , I thought they would have been right up your street as far as regimes go .

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Why can't nationalism and socialism mix?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea

In short, they can mix, but it's a bad combination.

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Why can't nationalism and socialism mix?

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Egalitarianism , once nationalism gets into the mix it isn't socialism is it .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Egalitarianism , once nationalism gets into the mix it isn't socialism is it .

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Socialism as an economic theory can coexist quite peacefully with nationalism. There's no reason why they can't coexist - but, like I said, I wouldn't want to live where they did.

Link
Link
Link

Your first link disproves your point , if Zanu was socialist and nationalist then it wouldn't have policies favouring tribal , political or race groups would it as all people of Zimbabwe would be equal before the law.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Your first link disproves your point , if Zanu was socialist and nationalist then it wouldn't have policies favouring tribal , political or race groups would it as all people of Zimbabwe would be equal before the law.

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Zanu-PF is both left-wing and nationalist.

Maniac you seem to have forgotten a link combining socialism and nationalism (and maybe fascism).

I believe it's called "Hillary Clinton".

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Zanu-PF is both left-wing and nationalist.

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But is it socialist ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

But is it socialist ?

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Was the German Workers' Party socialist?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

What did North Korea do this time???

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Well, there you go, the Burmese junta is nationalist, authoritarian and xenophobic to the core, just like the North Korean regime.

There is an interesting theory that says most or all socialist governments until now have been essentially nationalist, using (internationalist) socialism only as a guise for their true (imperialist) ambitions. Indeed, if you look at the fate of militant socialist governments, particularly the authoritarian ones, many have transformed into outright nationalism: Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Zimbabwe, North Korea and Burma fall within this category.

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Was the German Workers' Party socialist?

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Not in the slightest since the core is that all are born equal , since the workers party had at its core that whole tracts of society are born as sub-humans then it cannot have been socialist even though it used the word in its party title .