Spore and Mass Effect copyright protection discussion

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/52547

Quote:

---

BioWare technical producer Derek French has said that the PC versions of both Mass Effect and Spore will make use of copy protection that will require online validation every ten days in order for the games to continue working.

---

My German news source also said you can install them on 3 PCs and that's it. Such things were lifted in BioShock, but will EA do that?

I wonder whether this will increase their income or whether the copy production will reduce sales by more than piracy would because this particular copy protection is one of the worst I can imagine. :thumbsdown:

Copy protection requiring online validation every ten days? Blech; forget that. Guess I won't be getting Spore now. :no:

Validation every ten days!?

Sod that.

I guess i won't be getting it.

*mouse cursor idly wanders over to the address bar, and starts typing absolutely nothing illegal at all, and instead goes to hellokitty.com while thinking of possibly just boycotting Spore*

I have Mass Effect on the 360, so I don't need it for the PC anyway. And as for Spore, why not? The only people who should really worry are those without legitimate copies. After all, Spore does use an internet connection anyway, so it's not like you're making an extra effort to validate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae

I have Mass Effect on the 360, so I don't need it for the PC anyway. And as for Spore, why not? The only people who should really worry are those without legitimate copies. After all, Spore does use an internet connection anyway, so it's not like you're making an extra effort to validate.

---

However if you go on vacation or something for more then 10 days then well you can't play it when you get back.
These type of copy protection system are just stupid.
It only encourage people to pirate games.
Instead of punishing those that buy games how about actually rewarding them ??

Here is a nice interview with Chris Taylor and Brad Wardell CEO of Stardock
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/24/jo...h-of-pc-gaming

A highlighted bit

Quote:

---

What's your response to the belief that PC gaming is dying?

BW - Oh absolutely. It's not just dying, it's already dead. Totally. In fact...all game developers that feel that way should quickly flee to the, um ... console market, right now. Don't worry about us, we'll guard you're back while you retreat. Nothing to see here. We'll shut the lights off when you're all gone. No, no, no need to thank us at all. We just want to make sure the developers who think PC gaming is dying are safe to flee to greener pastures. We're just that selfless.

CT – (Laughs) Okay, so I'll give a slightly more "serious" answer. I've said that PC Gaming "as we know it" is dying, but there is a new kind of PC gaming being born out the ashes. Brad is definitely leading this charge with his innovative approach, and I am 100% in support of this. It's like what Sam Walton once said when asked how to succeed, he said, "Do what everyone else isn't doing." And this is exactly the case here. Remove this awful copy protection, and give your customers the great experience they deserve. Brad has a model which bucks the old system, and it's time to buck the old system, because the old system wasn't working ... it is, in fact, dead.

---

As I've said on various other fora, the best way to ensure people buy your games is to reward those that do rather than penalize everyone.

Anyone remember in the old days when any game you bought would be in a large box complete with a manual of a hundred or more pages, a color map, and generally nice layout of the box that you could be happy about each time you looked at it?

Nowadays, that seems to have become confined to extra expensive "collector's editions", and even those don't have the great manuals of old and replaced that with copy protection.

All this fuss about cutting costs and making profits and bringing out games that are at best in beta stage for an open, paid, beta test where not everything will even get fixed in the end. *sigh*

As for above copy protection, it sounds easier to beat than some of the others out there by the looks of it, so the companies are really just wasting money paying royalties for them rather than using that money to make customers happy or at least just fill their own purses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

As I've said on various other fora, the best way to ensure people buy your games is to reward those that do rather than penalize everyone.

---

Hear, hear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Title

EA doesn't want you to copy buy Spore and Mass Effect for the PC

---

~;p

I think it's far enough that it wont really harm those who legitimately bought it,
but it's going to be such a hassle. And no doubt hackers/pirates will find a way
to circumnavigate it any way.

If you're not validating every ten days, how can EA accurately target in-game advertising at you? This is for your own good, you know.

On the slightly less sarcastic side, my boys were dying to play a racing game a couple of years ago, and I found I could download the one they wanted off of D2D or other such service. Nice and easy download, I install it, start it up, online validation. Hmm, I think, ok I'll do it since I just bought the fleeping game and this should be just once. Five days later, online validation. Hmm, I think, this could be an issue. Two weeks later, the boys want to play the game. Our internet connection is flaky at the moment. Online validation again.

Sorry boys, we don't own the game, we're just renting it, and the landlords are out at the moment. I uninstalled it and have rather bitter feelings about the $40 I wasted. Not making that mistake again, even for Spore.

I too have the 360 version of Mass Effect. If I didn't then I doubt I'd ever play it; I'm becoming less and less tolerant of this kind of anti-piracy measure. Getting GalCiv2 2 years ago marked a turning point, though I didn't know it at the time and it took the release of Sins of a Solar Empire to make that clear.

Stardock are awesome. I was very sceptical at the start with GalCiv2 but they had me converted by the second patch. You get a good game, you get treated like a valued customer, and you get guaranteed updates and excellent post release support. That's win, win, win. There is but one problem with their model - I find that it makes me reluctant to return to 'normal' PC games. Similar to the way the introduction of all of that unskippable "Don't pirate and now we've hammered that message at you here are some trailers you don't care about or want to watch!" rubbish on the start of DVDs has put me off watching them. It's amazing how such (relatively) small things irritate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Anyone remember in the old days when any game you bought would be in a large box complete with a manual of a hundred or more pages, a color map, and generally nice layout of the box that you could be happy about each time you looked at it?

---

Yup, and I still have my favourite games' boxes. I ran out of space and so had to get rid of the rest. Heartbreaking. I did keep all of the manuals and such, and filed them inside the boxes I kept. The present day DVD boxes are more practical and a lot easier to store and yet I do miss my chunky boxes.

I remember that one of the games I got came with a free proper 600+ page history book on the beginnings of human civilisation in addition to the usual 100 page manual, tech tree, poster, and keycard. That wasn't a super special edition either.




[Mod's note: let's not have anything about pirating the games instead, or about applying cracks to a legitimate copy of the game. The org rules do not support discussion of either. Thanks]

Never copied a game or downloaded a movie in my life. Sometimes I wonder why. Friend of mine does and sometimes he gives me a few movies, the lack of unskippable ' thou shalt not steal' is almost a reason to join the naughties, just not enough.

like some one mentioned above it is easier to 'pirate' games that require online validation. A quick google search brought up 5 different methods, ranging from deleting certain ingame files to having your game 'validate' through a filter. Seems like EA might lose mroe money because of this validation process than they would make.

This is why this form of protection is unacceptable:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-drm-keys.html
This isn't some small company with money problems, this is Microsoft.

What EA is proposing here is even more ridiculous. There is nothing to keep EA from pulling the plug at any time, and then you are screwed. I stayed away from BioShock because of their activation DRM, and I'll be staying away from these games as well.

EA will definitely lose money on this. Both Spore and Mass Effect were on my "auto-purchase" list, but I am seriously considering dropping both because I swore I would never tolerate this again after the major pain that was Bioshock. That's $100 that they're losing from me right there.

You did buy Crysis tho :tongue2:

Crysis did not have anywhere near this level of draconian security measures. I don't like disk-checking software, but it's not a deal breaker for me. The crap they did with Bioshock definitely is, though. I will not go through that again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae

I have Mass Effect on the 360, so I don't need it for the PC anyway. And as for Spore, why not? The only people who should really worry are those without legitimate copies. After all, Spore does use an internet connection anyway, so it's not like you're making an extra effort to validate.

---

It's not about the idea in the abstract, it's about the exact mechanics of how they implement this. If the game "phones home" every ten days, and it only does that when I boot up the game, and there's no appreciable delay in loading, and there is no other impact on the integrity of my computer or personal data, then I can live with that. As you point out, it looks like Spore will need a live 'Net connection anyway.

Here's what I can't live with, and it's all about the implementation details:

• Does the game phone home and transfer any marketing data in the background?
  
• Does the game place hidden files on my system that won't be removed when the game is un-installed, and that can't be removed in any easy way by the user, and that cause problems with other programs or leave possible back doors open for hackers? This, of course, is what CA did with the Kingdoms expansion that uses SecureROM, and why a lot of us didn't buy it.
  
• If there is an arbitrary number of limited activations, is the number fewer than would be reasonable for the average gamer?

Until those questions are answered, I don't think I could consider buying these games, as much as I'm interested in them.

There is another issue too... the question of long-term replayability. A really good game is something I might finish and then come back to, a year or more down the road. Will the game company still be around then? Are they making any kind of committment to release a patch that removes the activation if, at some point, they're not able to keep their activation servers online? I don't usually keep shooters like Mass Effect on the hard drive that long, but it's a relevant question with something that has the potential to be a "classic" like Spore, if it lives up to the hype.

You fire Mass Effect up on Monday, it checks in and does it's thing. You then take your laptop with you and go on a vacation the next week to, say, Alaska, and have no connection. Then the snows pile in, and you are stuck inside. So on Thursday, you decide to fight off the cabin fever with a little Mass Effect. Rescue workers find you and the bodies of your family members a few days later. ~D

Something else occurred to me... if I understand this right, Spore populates worlds with AI-driven creature designs created by other players. So why doesn't EA just use the Blizzard/WoW model, and store those on a company server that can only be logged into if you have a legit copy and user account? With the WoW client, Blizzard does use some low-level code to check for cheating (bots, etc.), but it's nowhere near as intrusive and nasty as SecureRom, or limited activations.

I suppose that wouldn't work if they're planning on saving money and distributing alien creatures via direct P2P between players or something. But it seems like a golden opportunity to use a very relaxed and non-invasive CP method. You don't pay for a legit copy, you don't get creatures to run your designs against as opponents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Anyone remember in the old days when any game you bought would be in a large box complete with a manual of a hundred or more pages, a color map, and generally nice layout of the box that you could be happy about each time you looked at it?

---

I remember when games had full novels in them in addition to a massive manual.

It's how I got my copy of Das Boot (or The Boat) :yes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Privateerkev

I remember when games had full novels in them in addition to a massive manual.

It's how I got my copy of Das Boot (or The Boat) :yes:

---

The only games I remember getting that had a book with it was Dragonworld for the C-64 and Companions of Xanth for DOS. Dragonworld is still one of my favorite novels, but I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to play the game. Companions of Xanth was a bad game coupled with an equally bad book. Xanth died many, many years ago from stale puns.
If by "book" you mean "grossly-huge manual", then that award goes to 688-i Hunter Killer. I would have better luck trying to figure out how to drive a submarine by joining the Navy than by reading that monster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Privateerkev

I remember when games had full novels in them in addition to a massive manual.

---

The Internet and common broadband killed that model. It used to be that you got a well-tested game with relatively few problems, and a huge manual, because the game devs couldn't do anything more after the game was released. They had to get it right the first time out the door. No update patching, no half-finished games. The manual writer knew what the final game looked like during the long internal beta period, and had time to write a polished manual. That's all gone now... publishers know enough PC gamers will accept a half-finished game with the promise of a patch down the road, if the game is exciting enough and generates enough pre-release online buzz.

Back to the CP issue, it looks like EQ will be using one of the nastier flavors of our old buddy SecureROM for these games. This was posted on the Bioware forum (found it on a Slashdot link, they're talking about it over there too):

Quote:

---

Derek French
Technical Producer
Posted: Saturday, 03 May 2008 04:20PM

Mass Effect uses SecuROM and requires an online activation for the first time that you play it. Each copy of Mass Effect comes with a CD Key which is used for this activation and for registration here at the BioWare Community. Mass Effect does not require the DVD to be in the drive in order to play, it is only for installation.

After the first activation, SecuROM requires that it re-check with the server within ten days (in case the CD Key has become public/warez'd and gets banned). Just so that the 10 day thing doesn't become abrupt, SecuROM tries its first re-check with 5 days remaining in the 10 day window. If it can't contact the server before the 10 days are up, nothing bad happens and the game still runs. After 10 days a re-check is required before the game can run.

---

Also, he confirmed (at least for now) just 3 activations before the game locks and you have to call customer support on the phone, and beg for a re-activation.

This kind of copy protection will probably wind up being yet another useless gesture in the face of a determined, high IQ pirate/hacker community.

I'm a very naughty boy.

The phrase "The best defense is a good offense" holds true here and I'm not talking about DRM, Congressional lobbies or heavy handed legal recriminations against offenders. Make an effort to publish a better game and the people will fork over their beloved cash so they can play it. Clearly the 'quality content' argument is lost to money people who couldn't draw, sing, compose or animate to save their lives, let alone recognize such talent.

People who pirate a game probably wouldn't buy it if they couldn't copy it. Stop worrying about piracy and sell to the people who will buy.

Also, release more demos before releasing the actual game. It's a huge turn-off for me at least to see that the demo will come after the game's release.

I have somewhat less a problem with this for Spore, as it's an online game anyhow- although I still don't like it. For Mass Effect, on the other hand, it's completely unnecessary and unjustifiable, imo. I didn't buy Bioshock because of this nonsense and won't be buying Mass Effect either for the same reason. :no:

I've got too many games anyhow, this is one less to worry about getting.

That's two games I won't be buying, then. I'm not going to support the use of hare-brained copy-protection schemes that inconvenience only legit customers.

Just gonna confirm that this story is legit, and then I'm off to cancel my pre-order for Mass Effect.

-edit-

Looks legitimate, order canceled. Too bad. I was looking forward to that game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae

The only games I remember getting that had a book with it was Dragonworld for the C-64 and Companions of Xanth for DOS. Dragonworld is still one of my favorite novels, but I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to play the game. Companions of Xanth was a bad game coupled with an equally bad book. Xanth died many, many years ago from stale puns.
If by "book" you mean "grossly-huge manual", then that award goes to 688-i Hunter Killer. I would have better luck trying to figure out how to drive a submarine by joining the Navy than by reading that monster.

---

By book I mean an actual novel. I got "the Boat" from a submarine game that I can't remember. (the game sucked but the book was good.) And I got Flight of the Old Dog from the game, Megafortress. Again the game sucked but the book got me into that author and he was pretty good at the Clancy style techno-thrillers.

I remember when manuals actually had a real story in the beginning like Midwinter. Real actual background and plot...

I also remember them being huge because each page would have a unique piece of information that the game would ask for as a copyright check. They figured no one would photo-copy a 200 page manual. Oh how wrong they were...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Privateerkev

By book I mean an actual novel. I got "the Boat" from a submarine game that I can't remember. (the game sucked but the book was good.) And I got Flight of the Old Dog from the game, Megafortress. Again the game sucked but the book got me into that author and he was pretty good at the Clancy style techno-thrillers.

I remember when manuals actually had a real story in the beginning like Midwinter. Real actual background and plot...

I also remember them being huge because each page would have a unique piece of information that the game would ask for as a copyright check. They figured no one would photo-copy a 200 page manual. Oh how wrong they were...

---

I remember old style RPGs that came either with a comic (a few Atari games) or a "choose your own adventure book" style of manual, where you were told to flip to page 42 instead of being told what was going on in-game (Dragon Wars). Annoying, but they stuff a whole lot of crap into those manuals, which is good filler to read.
Sadly, those days are long gone, since it seems like the game producers think the average IQ of a gamer is less than a rock (re: Madden and GTA gamers). The days of "smart" mainstream games have long since been over with.

3 activations is stingier than Bioshock. I lost one of my Bioshock activations because something broke so I couldn't remove it via the uninstaller. I had to delete the directory and regedit the entries away. I have never been able to discover what went wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Privateerkev

I also remember them being huge because each page would have a unique piece of information that the game would ask for as a copyright check. They figured no one would photo-copy a 200 page manual. Oh how wrong they were...

---

Some of those checks were really very cute. Ah, the days of spelling out words in the Aurabesh in TIE Fighter ...