Rebel Alliances

Taking another peek at EB's 'features' page, I read this passage: "Diplomatic relationships of rebel cities with existing factions accurately represented, with severe consequences for AI and human players who violate those alliances."

Now, I've never noticed anything like that in the game, so I was wondering, what those consequences are. When you play as Seleucids, Carthage or Makedonia, which Rebel cities are you then diplomatically related to? Is this related to Cyrene always revolting to me, for no apparent reason, when I'm Seleucid or Makedon, despite having no foothold in Africa at all?

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Originally Posted by artaxerxes

Now, I've never noticed anything like that in the game, so I was wondering, what those consequences are. When you play as Seleucids, Carthage or Makedonia, which Rebel cities are you then diplomatically related to? Is this related to Cyrene always revolting to me, for no apparent reason, when I'm Seleucid or Makedon, despite having no foothold in Africa at all?

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Carthage takes a special interest in Messana, and will declare war if the Romans attack it or trespass on it's territory for more than one turn. There are several other cities that are under the protection of a faction. Not all of these alliances are unconditional, for example Carthage will only take offense at the Romans attacking Carthage. The treaties are listed in the script file, and in this thread.

Incidentally, I have attacked Byzantion often enough as Macedon or the KH, yet Pontos never declared war on me. Is there another condition active here?

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Originally Posted by artaxerxes

Is this related to Cyrene always revolting to me, for no apparent reason, when I'm Seleucid or Makedon, despite having no foothold in Africa at all?

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There is a Seleucid vs Ptolemaioi script involving Cyrene. Not sure what it does, though. In this case, it may be because cities have a "creator faction", that determines their culture. If a city revolts, it will revolt to this creator faction (unless the governor's residence is upgraded, in which case they will revolt to the faction to which the upgraded residence belongs). Usually, this is a nearby faction, but not always. Especially the KH may suddenly find themselves with new cities outside of its direct reach, and this may seriously screw up your diplomatic relations.

In my actual KH campaign this happened to me in several occasions.

Emporion and Halicarnasos for two times have revolted to me.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

There is a Seleucid vs Ptolemaioi script involving Cyrene. Not sure what it does, though. In this case, it may be because cities have a "creator faction", that determines their culture. If a city revolts, it will revolt to this creator faction (unless the governor's residence is upgraded, in which case they will revolt to the faction to which the upgraded residence belongs). Usually, this is a nearby faction, but not always. Especially the KH may suddenly find themselves with new cities outside of its direct reach, and this may seriously screw up your diplomatic relations.

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When I played Makedon, Cyrene revolted to me. When I played Seleucid, Cyrene revolted to me. In both cases, I had never once touched Africa. As Makedon, I hadn't even reached either Crete or Asia Minor. Then it must have TWO creator faction - and I'd even say three, given that I would have thought the KH a more logical creator faction than the other two (even though, on the other hand, Cyrene sometimes joined with Antigonids and Seleucids against Ptolemies. Perhaps this is what the revolts try to illustrate. That they really rather lead you into war with Carthage instead of Ptollies, since Carthage has an unusually strong desire for Cyrene, is another matter:laugh4: )

Actually, it is rather annoying that you can't deny a province revolting to you. Fx, instead of just GETTING Cyrene, then get a "do you want Cyrene" message! And if Cyrene belongs to Ptollies and you're allied to Ptollies, you'd get "do you want to support (and get) Cyrene, or to support Ptollies" - and answerin the latter, Cyrene would go Eleutheroi (or perhaps Seleucid, given its apparent dual creator faction-stance) and you'd keep your diplomacy intact. In real life, Ptollies wouldn't blame YOU for Cyrene's revolt, UNLESS you supported, but thanks to the RTW vanilla, they just instantly blame you!

EDIT: your link doesn't work for me, :(

Try this one.

As for your suggestion, I am afraid it is hardcoded. Also, I don't think an Ancient ruler would have that much control: if the people decide to declare for you, the damage is already done. You can tell the Ptolemaioi king that you didn't intend this, but do you think he would believe you? Unless you offered the city back, off course.

As for the dual creator, I am not sure how it works, but I understand that you can set a faction creator and second faction. If the eleutheroi upgrade the governor's residence, the town will henceforth revolt to the second faction. That way Ankyra can revolt to both the Aedui and Averni. Maybe something similar works with Kyrene?

Thx for the link, this time it worked :)

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Originally Posted by Ludens

As for your suggestion, I am afraid it is hardcoded. Also, I don't think an Ancient ruler would have that much control: if the people decide to declare for you, the damage is already done. You can tell the Ptolemaioi king that you didn't intend this, but do you think he would believe you? Unless you offered the city back, off course.

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Then I'd like to change my suggestion to: if Cyrene revolts to you (Makedonia) from the Ptolemies > Ptolemies declare war on you BUT (unlike the imperialist behaviour of RTW vanilla diplomacy), at the first instance of diplomacy between you and Ptolemies > Ptolemies offer peace (+ whatever trade rights, military access and the lot you had before the revolt of Cyrene) IN EXCHANGE for Cyrene:beam: That would be rather historic. But don't count it as an actual suggestion, it is a minor issue with the vanilla and I don't expect anyone to dedicate their time to it. And it's always (oh, well, noy ALWAYS...) funny to end in a war with no purpose whatsoever:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Ludens

As for the dual creator, I am not sure how it works, but I understand that you can set a faction creator and second faction. If the eleutheroi upgrade the governor's residence, the town will henceforth revolt to the second faction. That way Ankyra can revolt to both the Aedui and Averni. Maybe something similar works with Kyrene?

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Sounds very much like a logical explanation.

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Originally Posted by artaxerxes

Then I'd like to change my suggestion to: if Cyrene revolts to you (Makedonia) from the Ptolemies > Ptolemies declare war on you BUT (unlike the imperialist behaviour of RTW vanilla diplomacy), at the first instance of diplomacy between you and Ptolemies > Ptolemies offer peace (+ whatever trade rights, military access and the lot you had before the revolt of Cyrene) IN EXCHANGE for Cyrene:beam: That would be rather historic. But don't count it as an actual suggestion, it is a minor issue with the vanilla and I don't expect anyone to dedicate their time to it. And it's always (oh, well, noy ALWAYS...) funny to end in a war with no purpose whatsoever:laugh4:

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Thats impossible as well. Anything to do with diplomacy is essentially impossible to mod.

Foot

You are a member of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor!

Take her away!

In these situations, I try not to understand them exactly, I just accept them as part of an unpredictable game that makes playing every faction unique. As for diplomacy, its always been the weakness of the total war series but I find diplomacy in EB to be pretty good. You can always give the land back to the faction it came from in exchange for favorable terms via force diplomacy.

Red october standing by :dizzy2:

Big Red standing by :2thumbsup: