...Ghazi infantry. (These boys are great)
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...Ghazi infantry. (These boys are great)
Steppe Cavalry, chasing routers for ludicrously high ransoms since 1087........
Agreed they are my first true love as a unit.......................Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunk-Monk
Woodsmen. Peasants wielding huge 2h axes with 8 charge; watch them charge and then die and rout :laugh4:
Great for padding up your armies and they cost almost nothing to recruit and maintain. After a few battles and combining of survivors your woodsmen actually become quite scary.
Muwahid Foot Soldiers. All purpose unit, absolutely fantastic, especially in harsh climate.
Steppe Heavy Cavalry, solid at everything, plus they are a missile unit.
Slav Warriors, with 100 men per unit can beat almost all early spears.
Steppe Heavies are certainly a great unit, their XL version at least. Most underrated? Steppe Cavalry are great for scattering Archers and then doubling back to break and engaged unit by charging into their back.
I'd probably have to say the most underrated unit I can think of would be either Mounted Sergeants or Bashkorts, possibly Kerns and Bonnachts too.
Mounted Sergeants are cheap to build, low tech, perfect for desers without any armour upgrades, and devastating if used well. 8 charge backing a standard attack of 2 means that they can really deliver a kicking to anything thats already pinned. These guys pack a punch on par with Knights at a fraction of the cost, but sacrifice staying power to do so.
Bashkorts are a heap, easy to build javelin unit with the bonus of being a polearm unti as well. Decent stats of 5 Charge(!), 1 attack and 2 defense plus a large shield mean they can hold the line after using their javs and can go toe to toe with cavalry units and win.
Kerns and Bonnachts are great dual use units. They serve essentially the same function, providing teeth for your spear wall by lining them up 2 deep behind the spears so they loose a couple of volleys at anything that moves in to engage the spears to thin them out. Once they've don theis move them baqck and out to the flanks and charge them in like a suicide unit at the flanks and rear of engaged troops, or have them chase off archers. Bonnacts have a massive 4 charge and 5 attack meaning they are capable of breaking an engaged unit easily, especially given the 100 man unit size!! Something very satisfying about having a cheap javelin unit shred a bunch of Royal or Chivalric Knights with those AP javelins of theirs!!
In addition to seconding the Muwahids and Kerns, I'd also give the Egyptian Faris a mention. They're fairly solid, reliable medium cavalry; and armed with both sword and bow, they give an Eggy commander a fair degree of tactical flexibility as well.
I love the fanatics, using human wave tactics against a mongol horse archer army in a forest was a definte highlight of one of a Knights Hospitaller campaign. Also Turko-poles, I once had a unit of them that took a unit of Knights of Santiago down too four men, unfotunately there was only six left of them so they were uselles for the remainder of the campaign.
What about Mounted X-bows? Early in the game they are a great missile unit, and perfect for taking out Kataphraktoi.
I'll go with Muwahids too.
I don't really use any missile cavalry that isn't "fast" (Hence, excluding Faris, Mamluk Horse Archers et al), because I often use them to peel heavy cavalry away from the enemy's main army. If they can't outrun 'em, they're no good to me.
Vanilla spearmen would be my pick.
Not spectacular at all but invaluable early in the game.
Feudal Sergeants. I find them invaluable when playing as catholic factions as I know that once I have them I can at least feel confident enough in defending my lands. I can't think of any underrated muslim or orthodox units at the moment.
Tough question. I'm with Jrxc. Not only are vanilla spearmen useful early when you can't get much else, but they can also be used to spam armies in underdeveloped provinces, which can then be used as garrisons in rebellious provinces and boarder guards in places you don't expect to face powerful attackers. (In XL you can't do this with peasants, and even in vanilla MTW it is sometimes adviseable to have boarder guards slightly tougher than peasants without tying up your best troops.) They can also be used to pin enemy forces even later on in the game to give your flankers a chance to do their stuff, or to take on your enemies' not-so-finest, or even as a "meat shield." Depleted vanilla spearmen units (too small to use as a spearwall) can be formed into wedges and put on engage at will and then used as disposable flankers if you don't yet have acess to Ghazi or Woodsmen. Okay, they aren't much, but they are cheap and you can always find a use for some either in battle or on the campaign map.
Another underrated unit is the Jobbagy, in my opinion.
These guys are a bit better than generic javelins, and I think people underrate peasant javs in general. They can really bring the pain onto a pinned expensive heavy cavalry unit or general.
I would say Turkopoles. Fast, enough defense, and trained in Antioch reliable enough, especially with Master Horse Breeder and some Church buildings. I used to prefer Steppe Heavy cavalry for Catholics, but I'd say speed is of the essence, heh heh. I'd use them rather than Turkoman Horse.
All javelins are useful in some situations, even though usually they seem to be regular poor peasant crap the AI throws at you. I love to use them in sieges, as they're cheap and still cause casualties to very tough units. Also useful against over-zealous horse archers and Janitors standing next to you, and replacements for sword units and horse killer infantry in early armies. How about those Saxon Huscarles and Varangian Guards smashing through your center? Enter javelinmen. (Love the tactical stances in the Viking campaign...) On the field, they're much more useful than regular spearmen after the beginning of the game, so I tend to use them a lot as garrisons, so that I can muster enough of them for the tasks appointed in the front lines. Spearmen aren't too bad either, often they're good enough for supporting missile troops in defensive armies (Steppe cav, Arbalests and Spearmen are a force to reckon with...)
I love Steppe cavalry as well. Bet it as a cheap enveloping force, router chasers, or just regular flankers, they are my bread and butter and do everything very well. Who needs heavy cavalry anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by m52nickerson
yes i find that the slavs are absolutely great in wedge formation.... it might seem untrue but they work fantastic for me especially when i have a few units and i absolutely want something destroyed......
Well, I should be the one mentioning:
Beduin Camel Warriors
Ready to build from the beginning, these guys are mounted, have a good charge, they are cheap (even cheaper playing Egypt), they can take out cavalry, they can take out archers. If you use them properly, they can take out spears with a lot of flanking. Even though they usually lose out to infantry, they are faster than inf. and can meet them on their own terms always. I'd even say you could play a full campaign using nothing but camels.
I certainly underrated them in the past, but now I fancy them a little (but not in that way, you know)
But I'll also recommend Woodsmen! Trained in their bonus province (Lithuania?) and under a high-command general, these guys pack a punch, especially in the woods where spears and cavalry have a harder time. But they've never achieved anything for me in the center of a formation - flanking only...
/KotR
I think the humble, bog-standard vanilla spearman gets a hard time. I don't often bother training the higher-tech equivalents (FS and CS), even less so when I'm on a budget, although generally I do like teching up. Many a campaign I've been in "Late" era and still fielding mostly spearmen and armoured spearmen (faction allowing, of course) alongside my pav arbs, CFKs etc etc.
And mounted serageants too don't get the credit they deserve, just make sure you keep them moving :bow:
If we are talking about underrated I think Jxrc has hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jxrc
I concur. So long as you restrict them to charging and avoid prolonged melee combat, mounted sergeants can be surprisingly effective in battle. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by macsen rufus
Italian Light Infantry. Sure, having to build a castle to get this spear unit in early can be a little daunting, but Italy never has troubles making money (at least not if you know what you're doing). And these suckers ROCK, especially in early.
Honorable mention goes to hobilars. Much overlooked, but getting cavalry this early in the Early period is almost unfair.
Ditto for ILI! One of my favorite units in the whole game! Nobody else can field the statistical equivalent of Order Foot on a regular basis, and from just a castle-level spearmaker! These guys are a marked step up from Chivalric Sergeants, and can hold very well in melee with almost every kind of unit, even CMAA.
I don't know if you can call them underrated, but Trebizond Archers are very, very capable Hybrids (for flanking, but also for charging in a pinch), and available easily for the Byzantines. Also, you can get them with a valor bonus!
Murabitin Infantry is another pick in the one-faction-only repository: you gotta love javelinmen for economic knight/MAA-killing. Murabitin can quite capably hold their own once all javelins are expended, since they have a large shield, which also does a good job vs. missiles. Much higher morale than Kerns (who're superior attackers but tend to die like flies and flee ten seconds into the battle) makes them the javelin unit of choice: they need high morale to do their flanking. Each Almohad army should include some of these (two to three is enough, though).
And another one: Mamluk Horse Archers are my favorite horse archer (except the ridiculously powerful Boyars). They'd be on a par with Faris, but can be recruited in Sinai for a valor bonus, and thus are better. Hmm, on second thought I can think of a few better mounted archers (Steppe Heavies, Szekely...), but I just love playing Egypt. With Egypt, Mamluks are your game.
And yet another one: Sipahi of the Porte. May sound strange: general unit, 20 men, super-heavy armor and good attack, but it's a mounted archer? WTF? But tell me, how much do your catholic Royal Knight generals usually contribute to a battle? You don't let them attack until the enemy breaks? Well, Sipahi of the Porte can contribute simply standing on top of your hill, right behind your lines, safe as can be, and still rain arrows down on the enemy! The only royal unit that can actually contribute to a battle without risk to itself (except for Boyars, but those don't qualify in the "underrated" category)!
And then there's Druzhina Cavalry. Not much to catch the eye, there, right? Except for the simple fact that they dismount for 60 Feudal Foot Knights. Nothing can stand against an all-Druzhina army in Early! Dismount three quarters, keep the rest mounted for router chasing. Enjoy.
I don't think I have ever seen someone say that Italian Light Infantry was crap so they do not really qualify as an underrated unit. No question they are a big bonus for any Italian campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Would tend to agree more on that one even though most players seems to be aware that being able to build cavarly within a few turns of the start of the game is a huge advantage (irrespective of the unit you are able to train holibars, cavalrymen or horse archers. Each time I play as the HRE and that the French are smart enough to spam hollibar rather than archers and peasants, I know it's going to be a tough one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Empirate is correct in that Italian Infantry are Order Foot soldiers: That's Chivalric Sergeants/Saracen Infantry with +1 melee and +2 morale, so in other words, pretty much the best line infantry you can get.