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Now the parties almost over, let's have a reality check.... all those 'EU' citzens cast your vote.*
EU as a trading bloc cast yes.
EU s a government cast no.
If you'd like to play from outside the EU please state your case and why as a courtesy.
Thankyou.
EU as a trading bloc - Yes
EU as a government (Lisbon Treaty) - No
EU as a trading bloc cast - yes.
EU as a government cast - no.
opps there was s'posed to be a poll, if a Mod could help? :oops:
I could make a joke right now
Originally Posted by Fragony:
:laugh4:
I could make a joke right now
From the looks of your post there wasn't too much choice in the matter anyway...
EU as a government, thank you kindly.
Poll added, as requested. I hope it is in line with your intention IA.
I am a federalist, so in such a simplistic choice I vote for the EU as a government. But a radically different, democratically accountable government based on the principles of subsidiarity rather than the current attempt.
I'm not going to vote since I don't live in the EU zone, but I'd say as a trading bloc.
I honestly loathe much of big government. It does have it's positive aspects, but once it starts growing, its near impossible to stop.
Trading block- sure. Mostly make sense, trade is generally beneficial to all parties as a whole.
Gov't- No, especially not from what I've seen thus far.
From outside the US:
While I think the idea of a central government for all of Europe is a noble one, and one I would indeed love to see, I do not believe that it is likely to happen. However, I do believe it will become a strong trading bloc.
Government please. We have a brief window of opportunity to avoid becoming simply a pawn once again between the US and Russia, and we need to overcome our differences and take it.
That said, I do think the EU could stand to take a few steps back and become a good deal more democratic and accountable. The difficulty is doing this without caving entirely to the "we hate the French and Germans, scrap the whole thing, let's go back to 1914" brigade.
EU as a government? And risk having Blair and his cronies as President? Or that rabid Italian? Or the Polish Twins? NO THANKS!
If the EU transforms into a trading bloc again, I heartily support joining it. In its current state; no way.
I'll elect my own idiots into power, thankyouverymuch. I really don't see the benefit of having you people elect your idiot in their place.
Government, united it will be easier to pressure Norway into joining us. ~;)
Actually I think that unity will be beneficial in some ways, like Banquo I don't want it at all costs but the sooner my passport looks exactly like that of Louis(apart from the name etc of course) or Adrian the better. I bet some people from Hessen were also complaining when they got a federal german government but nowadays it's just normal, I could see the same happening with the EU, people will get used to it and perhaps even develop some national sense as EU citizens.
Some questions remain of course:
How long until we have only one language across Europe?
In the football worldcup, will the EU only field one united EU team? :inquisitive:
Originally Posted by Husar:
Now that'd be something. Might make the Euro championships a bit boring though.
In the football worldcup, will the EU only field one united EU team?
EU as a trading bloc, it just seems like the logical baby step to take before the attempt at federalism. Also provides for greater opportunity for economic success which might lesson nationalist inclinations.
I shant cast a vote here, as I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I see the EU as an opportunity to do something peacefully that Europreans have been trying to achieve through war and violence since the times of Charlemagne, that is to say unify Europe. It is likeley that it will begin as a trading block that will gather more and more political clout. Gradually, or even fairly rapidly depending on how successful the various factions can work together, the formation of a government will follow.
For where your treasure is, so shall your heart be also-Jesus of Nazerath
The way I see it:
1) Europe has been at peace since the end of the Second World War. Saying that the lack of the EU as a government will lead to European war is not only scaremongering, but it's pretty bad scaremongering at that. We can be friends without being in a single government, and Germany and France, the two historical rivals in Europe, have been friends for a long time now.
2) The current European "government" is rife with corruption. No.
3) The current European "government" is both arbitrary and totalitarian in the way it controls the House and Referendums.
4) The Schengen Agreement can be kept without a federal European government.
5) Ummm...no.
6) The European Union's individual nations have some of the strongest economies in the world on their own. We don't need to fear becoming "pawns."
7) Many European nations are part of NATO. Therefore, we don't need a new military alliance when we have the strongest nation in the world behind us, which will help us if our only major threat, Russia, decides to try anything - which they won't, since we buy their gas.
8) I value independence and my culture.
Not voting since, thankfully, we are no direct part of this EU thing.
Why are some people so easily persuaded to 'unify' this government? I'd fight blood, sweat and tears before I would have my vote negated entirely by this.
On related note, what exactly, can a citizen of the EU still vote on that actually counts for something?
Economic - Yes!
Government - No!
EU - Over my dead body!
Quid
I think you may find that a lot of us are in favour of a central European government, but not necessarily the undemocratic mess we currently have. If the poll had been phrased with an option for "I'm in favour of greater integration, but not the Lisbon treaty" there would have been a lot of votes for that I suspect. But I think it is entirely premature to suggest that we should abandon the ideal of federalism entirely simply because the current model is flawed.
Perhaps if the Eurosceptics weren't quite so frothing in demanding the EU be scrapped entirely, EU supporters might not be so unwilling to permit any backpedalling at all.
Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry:
That's why.
EU supporters might not be so unwilling to permit any backpedalling at all.
no.
EU supporters speak of europe or the eu as they see fit, we need europe and we need the eu are two different things. Of course we need europe that's where we do business, the eu, nah we don't need it.
The EU as a goverment please. Of course more democratic than now, but since it's all we have right now, we should strive to make that better.
Just a USian putting in his two (devalued and worthless) cents. Power held by a government will never be relinquished without a violent uprising. You Europeans saying "EU government please, but a little more democratic" are just fooling yourselves. The mess you have now will only get worse. A house built on a poor foundation will not last long. It is important to start well, and that doesn't appear to be happening in this case.
Trade bloc now, yes. Government now, no.
Overall, I don't really have a problem with a full EU government, but it needs to be more accountable and representative, with proper checks and balances.
Originally Posted by :
For the life of me, I cannot understand how the EU fans can't see this. It is after all, self evident. Now if the EU adopted summat akin to the Declaration of Independence, which BTW is one of the most uplifting and wisest proclamations ever made IMO, then I could see the merits of a unified Europe.
Power held by a government will never be relinquished without a violent uprising. You Europeans saying "EU government please, but a little more democratic" are just fooling yourselves. The mess you have now will only get worse. A house built on a poor foundation will not last long. It is important to start well, and that doesn't appear to be happening in this case.
If the people of Europe want out of the EU, they are free to vote in a party that will do this. I wouldn't like it but I wouldn't be able to do anything about it, and neither would the EU.
They do not, largely I suspect because the parties which promise to do this are very much of the "why would we want anything to do with foreigners" persuasion.
The poll needs a middle ground.
Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry:
If the people of Europe want out of the EU, they are free to vote in a party that will do this. I wouldn't like it but I wouldn't be able to do anything about it, and neither would the EU.Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
5) Ummm...no.Originally Posted by :
I disagree - the UKIP, for example, is for the trade agreement, but not the government, an opinion which most people here seem to share.
They do not, largely I suspect because the parties which promise to do this are very much of the "why would we want anything to do with foreigners" persuasion.
Don't get many votes though, do they?
Originally Posted by Poor Bloody Infantry:
Well, 16.8% of the UK vote in the 2004 European elections.
Don't get many votes though, do they?
Well, 16.8% of the UK vote in the 2004 European elections.
I think that was before the whole kilroy scandal, EU as a goverment i went for...