New General Units : Historical Question

Hey all. I've added this question to the unoffical mods location, but this is primarily a historical and gameplay question.

I'm adding a few new general units, since some areas would seem to be out of place. New general units will remedy this, since both through leaving a few unit slots open and Alex mod, there are plenty of open unit spaces.

Here are the units I'm adding. Biggest questions here are : What units would be closest to an Iberian and Ethiopian Client Kings Bodyguard?

Arabian Chieftain : Basically, arabian missile cavalry tribal levies without any missle fire, better stats, and small change to thier modelling to only charge. This unit will be the default unit throughout Nabatea and Arabia.

DONE

Judean Puppet Prince : Modelled off of Kings Herod and Aggripa; who had bodyguards consisting of Gauls, Germans, and Thracians. This is basically a small change to the Ptolemy's "Kleruchoi" unit, with a Judean Royal Seal blended into thier shield, making the distinction that this territory always required the facade of independence until later provincial status. This unit will be recuitable based off of Hellenized of Romanized Judeans siding with the faction owning Judea. This unit is only recruitable in Judea, and will be the default general here.

DONE

Axumite Prince : HAven't even started this one. Unfortunately, not very familiar with Axumite units. Would a local general of Axum have a core of local Cavalry beefing him up, or would he be with the infantry?Which unit would be best used as an axumite prince? I have already brought back the Eithiopia Agema in this build, so if you feel that this unit would best represent an Axumite general's bodyguard, please feel free to say so. Would they accopany the Heavy Infantry, Cavalry or possibly the Archers? or would they still have chariots?

MUCH INPUT NEEDED

Indian Majarajah : Basically only recruited in India. Just as Alexander gave much of the Indian lands he conquered back to thier native Rulers, they would have kept thier royal retainers. Further, they simply have a small number of loyal, unroutable Indian elephants. (very small in number) This has been completed; the only question is; what to call them?

SOME INPUT NEEDED

Iberian Lesser King : I know nothing about what puppet kings might have been like in Iberia. What unit best describes thier ratainers? I'm currently thinking the Iberian Heavy Infantry or the Iberian Medium Cavalry. Any anyone has any suggestions, please fee free. Haven't even started this one.

MUCH INPUT NEEDED

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brymht

Iberian Lesser King : I know nothing about what puppet kings might have been like in Iberia. What unit best describes their retainers? I'm currently thinking the Iberian Heavy Infantry or the Iberian Medium Cavalry. Any anyone has any suggestions, please fee free. Haven't even started this one.
MUCH INPUT NEEDED

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If it's infantry, I would go with Ambarkaro

If it's cavalry I would go with Iberi Lancaerii


Now If I may add a request, you know Dosidataskellli? Well the EB team disabled their recruitment because they were more of a Vasci Bodyguard unit, and very rare.

So maybe you could mod them in as a Mercenary general in that area?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGExcellent idea. By this map from Wiki, it looks like their territory borders about 3 different provinces.


So I will create a general unit out of this unit for parts or Northern iberia, and perhaps a unit based on the Iberian Medium Cavalry for the rest of Iberia, with slightly better stats.

Iberian heavy cavalry seem to be a strictly Carthaginian related unit. Therefore, tribal chiefs of Iberia, being exceptionally known for cavalry, would seem to follow more the Medium Cavalry role; only slightly better since they were the local king's retainers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

If it's infantry, I would go with Ambarkaro

If it's cavalry I would go with Iberi Lancaerii


Now If I may add a request, you know Dosidataskellli? Well the EB team disabled their recruitment because they were more of a Vasci Bodyguard unit, and very rare.

So maybe you could mod them in as a Mercenary general in that area?

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Dunaminaica is just as good too:beam:

The Dunaminaca seem like more line troops of the Cerltiberians; not really personal bodyguards. And the standard Celtic Lesser King unit is fairly close to this unit in any case. Two general types in Iberia seem sufficient. There's a few other units types I'm hoping to add before I run out of slots.

This should be incorporated into EB 1.2. It'd be awesome to hear of your progress, Brymht. Sorry I can't be of any help, as my knowledge in these matters is ridiculously limited.
:oops:

I believe I've got all my client state units setup. Here's what I decided on.

1. Ethiopian Client Prince : Basically, a very slightly beefed up unit of Ethiopian Swordsmen. Only recruitable in 3 - 4 territories in the southeast.

2. Arab Chieftain : Recruitable throughout the Penninsula, Sinai, and Nabataea.

3. Indian Hyparkhos (Vice Regent) : Indian Elephant General recruitable in the Indian territories.

4. Judean Client King : Western Mercenaries makign up the Judean Royal Guard. Only recruitable in Judea.

5. Dosidataskeli : Unit previously taken out of the game. Will the the default cleint kings in 3 territories in Northern Iberia, and recruitable general's bodyguards in another 2.

6. Iberian Tribal Chief : Iberian Medium Cavalry, recruitable in Southern and Eastern Iberia.

NOTE : Incidentally, the Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha have become a merc unit; and one which only spawns very infrequently in my mod.
Any other suggestions? I need some room for more units, but if anyone has any terrific and smewhat historically accurate ideas, I'm open.

You should also be able to recruit the Arabians in Tadmor. Of course, I'm only basing this on my experiences that Tadmor always rebels to the Arabians, so there's no need to take me seriously.

Other than that, good job. Keep it up!
:2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brymht

I believe I've got all my client state units setup. Here's what I decided on.

1. Ethiopian Client Prince : Basically, a very slightly beefed up unit of Ethiopian Swordsmen. Only recruitable in 3 - 4 territories in the southeast.

2. Arab Chieftain : Recruitable throughout the Penninsula, Sinai, and Nabataea.

3. Indian Hyparkhos (Vice Regent) : Indian Elephant General recruitable in the Indian territories.

4. Judean Client King : Western Mercenaries makign up the Judean Royal Guard. Only recruitable in Judea.

5. Dosidataskeli : Unit previously taken out of the game. Will the the default cleint kings in 3 territories in Northern Iberia, and recruitable general's bodyguards in another 2.

6. Iberian Tribal Chief : Iberian Medium Cavalry, recruitable in Southern and Eastern Iberia.

NOTE : Incidentally, the Uachtarach DuboGaiscaocha have become a merc unit; and one which only spawns very infrequently in my mod.
Any other suggestions? I need some room for more units, but if anyone has any terrific and smewhat historically accurate ideas, I'm open.

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Great Idea, if I may say so.

For the India, I would use the Sreni unit. It is very historical, Indian elites from what we know used large swords (and Pattya sreni has a very big sword), and also his twin cape is what the elites of Mauryan empire used. The name would be "Yparchos" not Yparkhos.

For Judean client king, I would use a thureos carrying unit with bronze coated shield.
As Mein Panzer says, the name of his guard would be Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

they would most likely be armed as thureophoroi- see for instance the "hundred-killers" of Alexander Jannaeus in the early first century BC with their bronze-faced thureoi (Josephus, Antiquities 13.12.5).

and

Alexander Jannaeus' elite troops (8,000 in number) made up the front lines and were called "hekatontamachoi," which literally means "hundred-fighters," sometimes translated more dramatically "hundred-killers," which presumably referred to the number of men they could defeat, in which case they must have been highly effective troops.

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Thanks for the excellent translation. I'll make the changes to the Indikoi Client Prince unit now.

I've thought a bit about the Iudaioi Client King; and I definately agree to a small degree. In the early days of the Hasmonean line, the Judean King would definately have been surrounded by a native Royal Guard. However, a CLIENT king, subservient to the will of the occupying power; be it the Romani, Seleucid, or Ptolemy, would probably rather hire mercenaries. This was seen out in real historical examples of Judaic Client Kings; Namely Herod and Agrippa II. Both of these kings surrounded themselves with Gallic, German, and Thracian mercenaries. I would guess this was because of the the political climate of the time; but this is a historical assuption on my part. Presumably, the fact that Judea was a puppet state of Rome irked the ultra proto nationalists among the Judeans; most notably the Essenes. For this reason, I would guess that the Judean Kings made the same assumption with thier palace guard that Romans made with the Imperial Praetorians. Better to hire outside mercs you can trust with money than get caught up in local politics and assassinated.

For this reason, did some SLIGHT modifications to the Kleruchoi unit (adding a star or david to the shield, changing the color) to symbolize royal authority.

Please let me know if my historical assumption is dead wrong, or if anything is crazy inaccurate. Almost finished with the minimod now. :)

Brymht: I think you have the Essenes and Zealots mixed up; the Zealots were the ultra-nationalist arnarchists who plotted the overthrow of foriegn powers in Judea. The Essenes were a more ascetic, mystic group of Jews who were more interested in awaiting the messiah than getting involved in politics. IIRC, there were four main "religious" groups/sects/divisions within Judaism at this time. The Sadducees were the more political party who dominated Judaean dealings with outsiders and controled Judea as well. The Pharisees were puritanical religious devotees who followed the Law very strictly, but also with an eye for looking at the Torah more carefully and intuitively than the Sadducees. The other two were the mysterious, more introverted Essenes and the violent, destabilizing Zealots.

Chairman

Cant wait for this :clown:

but will be for alex.exe or rtw.exe?

and keep up with this! :smash::smash:

Chairman,

I agree, compared to the Zealots, the Essenes were fairly ascetic. They tended with withdraw from the rest of Judean society and live out in the desert. However, there are exerpts in the Dead Sea scrolls which are VERY explicit on what is to happen to Gentiles and "Collaborators". They were pretty darn fundamentalist about any Hellenic or roman influence in Judea. However, you are correct; they tended to keep to themselves more than mix with the other larger factions. The Zealots would therefore have been far more accurate.

Thanks for the correction.

Havok,

Unfortunately, I'm releasing it for Alex; and now the Client ruler's portion of the mini mod is done, including adding of historical details to their unit descriptions.

However, there are a few other changes going in with it; namely a small map change around Ak-Ink; and I added a series of Hybernian Invasions in the System Script; where the Lusitanians have the conditions to become a somewhat migratory faction. Basically, there are 3 date triggers in the script; and if the Lusos have only 1 province which is NOT in Hybernia at the time of these date triggers, Ivernis will become Lusotanian automatically, and 2 armies spawned around it. So basically, if the Lusomtanians are losing the battle for Iberia and Gaul, a portion will migrate to Hybernia; possibly 3 times during the game at most.

All this has now been built. I'm really just adding a few more units to get to the unit level cap, and may make some changes to the AOR for Romani; most especially in the Getai provinces. So hopefully this will be released soon. If you only want part of it, I have all my additions to the EB files clearly commented, so feel free to pick and choose.