Chariots or Cavalry?

What do you find to be the most effective?

I've had two sessions playing RTW, one when I was younger and had just come off Age of Empires, and now more recently having played M2TW and going back through the TW series.

In the past, I always thought chariots were hopeless. They seemed to die very quickly once bogged down at all, and were poor at chasing routers and doing other cavalry duties. Meanwhile cavalry charges seemed to be absolutedly deadly, basically any cavalry unit with a spear could annihilate any infantry unit not in phalanx formation.

But now I have more experience I pay a lot more attention to morale, rather than MTW/STW style RPS unit matchups. And this is when chariots really show their worth. Right now I'm playing as Britannia, and a couple of units of chariots on either flank will almost insta-rout Gallic armies of Swordsmen and even Chosen Swordsmen. Chariots are also particularly effective on flanks since their scythe blades massacre enemy cavalry, so long as you keep your chariots moving.

So now I am a real chariot fan. I tend to get some Barbarian Cavalry Mercenaries just to catch routers, but other than that I will happily take chariots over any cavalry unit when facing an infantry army (since they only frighten infantry). Unless of course they are Cataphracts, my last campaign was as Parthia. :sweatdrop:

Well, if I absolutely *had* to choose, I'd say Cavalry is generally more effective: horses kill better than chariots in RTW. Cav is generally a little faster or more efficient at catching routers, as you noted.

Of course, the question is a bit problematic because you generally don't get a choice, depending on your faction. If you're the Brits, you have to use chariots, unless you're using mercs. As the Seleucids, I was never impressed with the Scythed chariots (maybe they'll do better now that I removed that annoying "can_run_amok" attribute), and Seleucid cavalry is way better anyway. As the Egyptians.... well, I never ever ever play the Egyptians, out of sheer annoyance at their tendency to run rampant over the lower right corner of the map.

If I'm facing Roman legionaries, I'd rather have some high charge-value cav than chariots.

All that said, I love chariots, for the reasons you described. The British are one of my favorite factions, in part because of the chariots. I recently had a battle outside Samarobriva that consisted of my faction leader, 2 units of heavy chariots, and 2 units of light chariots, vs. 1 unit of (Julii) Praetorian Cohorts, 1 unit of Legionary cohorts, and 1 unit of Early legionary cohorts. Since I was attacking, I flanked & harrassed with the light chariots, drew out the cohorts one by one, and then slammed them with my heavy chariots. Took some losses, but I won.

One thing I always want to try is a full-on charge by some heavy chariots, followed immediately by charging infantry to take advantage of the broken lines. The chariots would tend to take losses, but my screaming woad-painted warriors would pour into the gaps and waste the enemy -- *if* I timed it right. Your tactic of flanking with chariots is more feasible & less of a timing nightmare.

Be glad you're playing the later versions: In the earliest versions of RTW, I would consistently lose my British family members in battle because of the fragility of their chariots. Thanks to increased hp, things are a bit better now. They're not tanks, but they can mix it up a bit more.

One last thing to wrap up this too-long-already post: a great thing to do as Britain is take Ireland and then just build, not doing any invading. Wait for the Julii to work their way up to you through Gaul and then you'll be able to fight some epic battles against high-tech Roman troops -- much more of a challenge than fighting your continental barbarian cousins!

I'm uncertain as to whether it is just me, but I've always found R:TW chariot killing power to be exceedingly low in comparison to their cavalry counterparts. I'm probably using them wrongly, but they always seems to charge in, get bogged down in troops (mainly knocking them over rather than killing them), and then getting killed themselves if I allow them to go in for a period of hand to hand combat.

Regardless of whether I try to move the chariots out of the way before they get to this stage, they still don't kill half as many men as a cavalry unit would be able to do so in even the initial charge. They may be slightly faster, but speed isn't always everything. This does, however, make them slightly better as cavalry archers than the standard type.

As said already though, they do have the advantage of fear, which can be critical in a lower powered Barbarian (British) army. The fear tactic is often important here - warcry (increase attack), combined with chants (increase allied morale and decrease enemy morale) and chariots (decrease enemy morale), can be critical to willing a Barbarian battle if used at the right times in the right places. As long as there is no threat to your own flanks, it's easy enough to move around their rears and just stand there to send them fleeing. This tactic can also be used, albeit a little more difficultly, in an Egyptian force.

In all honesty though, I'm not sure whether the above does actually give them an edge over cavalry. They could serve pretty much the same purpose in a Barbarian army - although chariots cause fear, horses can charge into flanks and cause pretty much the same level of morale problems, as well as casualties, as a chariot who is standing there. If a chariot were to do this, then it would be instantly massacred and be running away after a mere few seconds of combat. Essentially, horses are able to multi task much more than chariots, which probably gives them an edge over them.

~:)

I'm still playing unpatched thanks to Vista, so my chariots are still very fragile (lost a 10 star faction leader :wall:).

But the morale impact of chariots is much greater than a cavalry charge. Even walking by chariots enemy units can be reduced to 'shaken'. So if you flank with chariots one unit can rout half an enemies line.

I'd pick chariots, their ability to trigger mass routs is amazing to behold. One trick I've found is to not click on the targeted unit, but to click beyond it instead. This way the chariots will (hopefully) move through the unit and out of harm instead of being bogged down and hacked down, followed by (as CountMRVHS noted) a mass charge.

I like cavalry too, but I just like chariots more. (Elephants are even more awesome, chariots on steroids, but that's another discussion.)

Another way I like to use chariots (which is admittedly an exploit) is in auto-resolve. I stick maybe a half-stack of them in a city with a Blacksmith when I don't want to expand on certain fronts. For example, in one Egyptian game, I conquered Tarentum, shipped some chariots there (with some garrison troops and a decent young general) and sallied forth every time the Romans attacked. The way they pull victories against the odds are incredible. That way I kept the Romans at bay indefinitely while I expanded on other fronts.

So chariots are overpowered in auto-calc? But it doesn't show in the battle odds, just the results?

Glad to see another chariot fan anyway.

Chariots are pretty much a disaster on all fronts, whether fielded by oneself or the enemy. When playing as Egypt or Britannia I lose more generals due to the fact that they are charioteers. I also lose more of my generals when facing Egypt or Brittania due to them coming into contact with enemy heavy chariots. Chariots also have that annoying habit of running amok every now and again as well as liquidising themselves against the odd phalanx.

I'm personally a big fan of chariots and will use them in place of cavalry almost everytime.

I prefer Cavalry to chariots due to the fact that no matter who i am i always get beaten by chariots then when i be a faction with chariots i always lose with them. The chariots take up a lot of space in a settlement and are easily killed by a phalanx. Cavalry are effective in combat more than the chariots.

I didn't even think 10 secs about my variant, of course cavalry. I've never seen chariots being effective in combat.

In an unmodded version of RTW, chariots can be very effective. The trick is to leave them out of combat until the enemy is weakened and their units are wavering, then send the chariots through the enemy units to start the rout. Often a chain rout will ensue. I had a brief campaign as the Britons and found my general's chariots were unstoppable at times, completely destroying the enemies' morale and sending them flying at the same time. The only thing is chariots need considerably more 'babysitting' than cavalry because they're so vulnerable to unprepared attacks. They can also be incredibly weak to the degree they just dishearten me completely. I once send a unit of British light chariots to attack a unit of Screaming women who had their backs to the chariots. I watched in disbelief as half my chariots fell to bits when they collided with the rear-ends of the German women. I don't know what those women are packing in their behinds, but it was too much for my chariots. After that I lost faith in them. Cavalry are much more reliable, easier to manoeuvre and generally more effective in the role you give them. So whilst chariots have their uses, I prefer cavalry by a long shot.

You definetely have to have experience with chariots to use them effectively. But if you time things right, their effects can be spectacular. You can't beat chain routing a Gallic army of 2,400 Warband soldiers and 1,600 Swordsmen, after they've only been ingaged for maybe half a minute.

Plus the Light Chariots are great at skirmishing before the main lines meet. They can really hamper cavalry charges and rout any enemy skirmishers that want to harass your troops.

I go with chariots. I am using them to good effect in my Pontus campaign. First, they massacre cavalry. Just on this alone they get huge merit as they are ideal in keeping the sides of my phalanx cavalry free. Second, they cause a good deal of pain enemy infantry in sending them totally into disarray, killing morale, and just generally making them easier to rout if not already doing so.

Of course, the best is a chariot charge followed by some good heavy cavalry. The enemy just doesn't know what to do and it usually ends in a slaughter. I treat chariots kind of as one use deals, send them in and ignore casualties, just make sure there are enough left to retrain, then wash rinse and repeat across the map.

I am a big fans of chariot archers such as Briton light chariots, but I prefer cavalry to melee chariots. I found chariot archeers to be the most easy unit to gain experience with, and unlike melee chariots (who are utterly useless when taking an enemy settlement), I find them to be quite versatile.

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Originally Posted by professorspatula

I once send a unit of British light chariots to attack a unit of Screaming women who had their backs to the chariots. <...> After that I lost faith in them.

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Yeah, same with me. I had a bad experience with British chariots. Chariot archers do not really do any significant harm to the enemy, while the general's unit is so damn valnurable that it makes no sense to use the general in battle...

... Unlike other nations whose general cavalry units are very strong and helpful and really sometimes decide the result of a battle.

Never used chariots extensively so that I cast my vote on the basis of what gives me the more trouble.

Initially chariot gave me nightmare but any unit that can form a phalanx makes short work of them, especially given how silly the AI is when using them. If chariot charge a phalanx, they just they at one. An unit of cavalry has apparently a much better chance to flank the phalanx and even if it charges head on it will kill quite a few men. Chariots just need to get close to the spear to die. I does not make sense I know and it looks to me a bit as if the correct impact of the phalanx formation had only been correctly implemented for battle against chariots ...

Chariot can be tricky when you can only use the odd mercenary hoplite unit but last week-end, I played as Carthage and was again surprised by how easy it was to deal with Egyptian and Pontus chariots with a few units of Poeni infantry ...

I did a test with Eggy heavy Chariots against roman hastati. I could easily wipe out one to one. I then tried 2 hastati to 1 Chariot and Chariot won. 3 Hastatis beat chariots (1). I then tried triari and could kill 1:1 but took heavier casualties. The auxiliary spear guys were trouble tho and I barely beat them 1:1. I tried against Roman archers with 3 archers to my one Chariot and wiped them out easily. I then tried 3:1 javelins vs Chariots. Suprisingly the Chariots beat them handily as they kept constant pressure on the chuckers and they rarely got a chance to throw their wares at the chariots. They wiped out the jav's easily and took few casualties. This was being outnumbered 3:1 against a unit that is supposed to be a counter to the Chariot. I was surprised about that. I didn't really manage the Chariots beyond giving the attack command on a unit til that unit was routed and then say attack the next one. So there was no micromanaging. I then went against various cavalry units of the Romans and Chariots beat them handily. I never tried more than 1:1 but they wiped the cavalry out and quickly. So after doing these tests I was much more impressed than I was before about what an Egyptian Charioteer can do. I also tested the Egyptian Desert Cav and they too were impressive. They beat all the early Roman infantry easily except for the spear guys. They beat all main roman cavalry and the Equites easily. I am starting to get really impressed with these 2 units. Egypt has a lot of powerful units or decent cheap units too.

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Originally Posted by Cynwulf

When playing as Egypt or Britannia I lose more generals due to the fact that they are charioteers. I also lose more of my generals when facing Egypt or Brittania due to them coming into contact with enemy heavy chariots.

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I'll agree with that, I couldn't get used to not having a heavy cavalry unit in my armies early-game, and one siege battle in particular was a disaster for me as my faction heir's chariot bodyguard got hacked down in the narrow streets, but it's alright once I played with the faction for a bit.

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Originally Posted by Slim1951

I then tried 3:1 javelins vs Chariots. Suprisingly the Chariots beat them handily as they kept constant pressure on the chuckers and they rarely got a chance to throw their wares at the chariots. They wiped out the jav's easily and took few casualties. This was being outnumbered 3:1 against a unit that is supposed to be a counter to the Chariot. I was surprised about that.

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Yeah, I noticed that too. I once tested this with three Greek heavy peltasts versus one Egyptian chariot unit, and the peltasts lost no matter what I did-- flanking, box formation, loose formation.... in exasperation I even tried a mass charge into the melee, and the peltasts still lost. I think it's mianly because skirmishers in general have such low stats and morale that their bonuses don't really matter as much in practice.

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Originally Posted by Jxrc

Chariot can be tricky when you can only use the odd mercenary hoplite unit but last week-end, I played as Carthage and was again surprised by how easy it was to deal with Egyptian and Pontus chariots with a few units of Poeni infantry ...

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:yes: Agreed.... I usually hate fighting the Egyptians, but I just love it when the pharoah and his mighty chariots run headlong into my sarissae/hoplite-phalanx.

Chariots eats Cavalry for breakfast lunch and dinner.
1 lone cavalry unit? Send 1 chariot unit over and consider the cavalry dead.

Chariots are not so effective in killing infantry but they are when the horses go berserk. When the chariots charge into the infantry lines, cavalry need to follow up to be effective.

I seem to be unable to handle chariots well, they´re just too cumbersome (look at all the space they occupy), even whey I tie down the enemy at the front and use my chariots to attack the flanks they drop like flies. And too few actually deliver their punch, the rest overshoots on either side of the target, resulting in the chariots to circle in on one enemy troop, but at the same time getting bogged down and presenting their own flanks to others. No, I prefer cavalry any day of the week. They still suffer the highest losses in my battles, but at least they take a lot with them.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I seem to be unable to handle chariots well, they´re just too cumbersome (look at all the space they occupy), even whey I tie down the enemy at the front and use my chariots to attack the flanks they drop like flies. And too few actually deliver their punch, the rest overshoots on either side of the target, resulting in the chariots to circle in on one enemy troop, but at the same time getting bogged down and presenting their own flanks to others. No, I prefer cavalry any day of the week. They still suffer the highest losses in my battles, but at least they take a lot with them.

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Me too. i tell them too go forward, and he majority do but some go backwards and others run around in circles for a while. Calvary are much easier. also chariots take up alot of room on the battle map and they dont cause too much damage to infantry. It just knocks them over, they get back up and then (surprisingly easily) kill my charioteers. I once charged some chariots into some peasants. 5 of my chariots were destroyed to 6 of their peasants

I voted Cavalry for its practicality...

But my woaded heart lies with Chariots and causing brown trousers time for my foes! :2thumbsup:

Cavalry are more flexible.

Cavalry are better all around, and can be used on their own. Chariots are not the best on their own, except vs skirmishers and cavalry one on one. They shine when backed up by cavalry or infantry. Charging a couple of Chariot units through (the key is to charge through not into, then the chariots just die) the back of the enemy army formation followed by some cavalry. The chariots cause major fear and absolutely shoot to hell any formation the enemy had, making and all too sweet target for your cavalry.

I consider them essential for fighting my field battles. If noting else sacrifice them just to sow the confusion and fear. Hopefully a couple will survive to retrain!

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Originally Posted by Darkvicer98

I prefer Cavalry to chariots due to the fact that no matter who i am i always get beaten by chariots then when i be a faction with chariots i always lose with them. The chariots take up a lot of space in a settlement and are easily killed by a phalanx. Cavalry are effective in combat more than the chariots.

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I still go for Cavalry but Chariots are just superb. I hadn't had a really good try with them so i got the negative side of them but i conquered East Gaul and their Capital with my faction heir and a British Light Chariot unit. Gaul sent many armies against my army and i still beat them without losing a single Chariot!