What should an authentic Hellenistic army look like?

This often comes up when I'm "building" a stack for the AI when it sends some half-baked 3-unit-army to attack me. I spawn units in the stack to make it up to a proper, balanced force. Or at least I try.

I usually build a Hellenistic Successor army to be roughly thus:
1 x Argyraspides or some other elite phalanx
2 x Pezhetairoi or Kleruchoi or other medium phalanx
4-6 x Levy or Native phalanx
2 x Thureophoroi

Then add something like:
2 x Peltastai/Akontistai
1-2 x slingers
1-2 x Toxotai

Rest fill with cavalry (Prodromoi, Lonchophoroi, Hippakontistai). To me that seems a balanced force, with line infantry, skirmishers and cavalry.

Does it look even remotely like a proper Successor army? Too many skirmishers? Too many weaker phalangites? Not enough other infantry?

KH is a hellenistic faction but it doesn't uses phalanxes as the main core of the army

:clown:

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Originally Posted by Havok.

KH is a hellenistic faction but it doesn't uses phalanxes as the main core of the army

:clown:

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I mean more the Hellenistic Successors then; Makedonia, Seleukids, Ptolemies. :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

I mean more the Hellenistic Successors then; Makedonia, Seleukids, Ptolemies. :embarassed:

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XD
its ok
i guess what you did is basicly what i do as well
though, when the $$ is favorable, i'd stick with the medium phalanxes only
and i also carry along my armies, two elite units, since holding two flanks can prove a tough job to a regular phalanx

Based purely on effectiveness, all I'd say is drop a couple of phalanxes and pick up a couple more solid non-phalanx infantry. Hoplitai, Thorakitai, Galatian Klerouchoi, the various elites, whatever.

And ideally replace the toxotai with real archers (Cretans in the west, anything in the east). ~:)

No freakin' clue if that would be at all historical, but it would work well in-game. What you posted would too, I just prefer more flexibility and thus a smaller phalanx line.

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Originally Posted by jhhowell

Based purely on effectiveness, all I'd say is drop a couple of phalanxes and pick up a couple more solid non-phalanx infantry. Hoplitai, Thorakitai, Galatian Klerouchoi, the various elites, whatever.

And ideally replace the toxotai with real archers (Cretans in the west, anything in the east). ~:)

No freakin' clue if that would be at all historical, but it would work well in-game. What you posted would too, I just prefer more flexibility and thus a smaller phalanx line.

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Kretan Archers, said it all :yes:

Wouldnt Koinon Hellenon be considered Hellenic, not Hellenistic?

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Originally Posted by Gaivs

Wouldnt Koinon Hellenon be considered Hellenic, not Hellenistic?

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Ahh yes, pardon me on what i said above there :sweatdrop:

2-4 elites on flank (royal guards or makedonian peltasti or w.e)
3-4pezehetairo
1-2 levy (deutoria, etc)
1-2 elite phalanx
2-4 thorikita- Theurophia as flank supporters
3-4 calvalry of medium-> heavy
rest with watever u like


side note
how do u spawn units in armies etc, i never got how 2 do it
i hate it when epirus just steamrolled all the way from ambrakia -> nikaia in 10 years and up to getai capitol
i wanna actually put makedonian and selekid armies somewhat balanced or effective at least (roman @ 251 bc, seleukid is half eaten up by batkria, but sabyn got 3 provinces next to jerusalem and syra koile so ceasefire, amazingly theyre beaten back the parthenians back to there home teritories)

I know how to spawn units in a city... but I 'm not sure at all how to spawn units in an army... if that's what he does :thinking2:

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Originally Posted by ||Lz3||

I know how to spawn units in a city... but I 'm not sure at all how to spawn units in an army... if that's what he does :thinking2:

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create_unit "Character Name" "unit type" amount experience weapon upgrade armor upgrade

ex. create_unit "Captain Theodotas" "greek skirmisher peltastai" 1 0 0 0

thats the part
i know how to write it
just dont know the unit names so i acn spawn it :(

someone wanna send me a entire sheet for unit and coded for how 2 spawn it (or just the name of unit)

so i can print it out and study it lol

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Originally Posted by teh1337tim

thats the part
i know how to write it
just dont know the unit names so i acn spawn it :(

someone wanna send me a entire sheet for unit and coded for how 2 spawn it (or just the name of unit)

so i can print it out and study it lol

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The good folks of EB already did this more or less. The export_descr_unit.txt lists the units and their internal names.

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Originally Posted by teh1337tim

2-4 elites on flank (royal guards or makedonian peltasti or w.e)
3-4pezehetairo
1-2 levy (deutoria, etc)
1-2 elite phalanx
2-4 thorikita- Theurophia as flank supporters
3-4 calvalry of medium-> heavy
rest with watever u like

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That looks rather elite-heavy to me. Where would they have found so many rare troops?

Exactly. Seeing how most of the Hellenistic states were either in a state of decline (Seleukids) or had too little troops (Ptolemaioi).

A site that I advise you to read is: http://warandgame.wordpress.com/2007...ucid-military/

Also, keep in mind that you won't send Argyraspides with the son of the nephew of the sister of the son of the cousin of the brother of the King. Argyraspides were elite, so really save them for special persons (the family of the Basileus, the Epistrategos tes Mikras Asias, the Archon tes Aigyptou, the Satrap of Makedonia, etc.).

When campaigning in the east, I advise something like this.

1/2 General
6/7 Pandatapoi Phalangitai
2 Thureophoroi/Shipri Tukul Pezoi
2 Slinger types
2 Archer types
2 Peltast types
2 Light cavalry (preferred javelin-throwing)
2 Prodromoi/Other medium cavalry

Edit: And if you want to REALLY be accurate, I say LOT'S of mercenaries. The AS were in major domestical problems at that time.

So regular phalangites like pezhetairoi or kleruchoi are as "elite" as they should realistically get, unless the general is important?

I don't know about authentic, but this is my setup:

4 Medium Phalanx
2 Elite Phalanx
2 Spearmen for the flanks
3-4 Elite infantry (Agrinian, Royal Guard, Peltastai) for the flanking moves.
2 Skirmisher
2 Ranged (archer, slinger)
3-4 Cavalry (If I got the cash I make them all elite)

A bit elite, but you don't have to retrain so often. Besides, with this you can fight the really big battles.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Does it look even remotely like a proper Successor army? Too many skirmishers? Too many weaker phalangites? Not enough other infantry?

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I think the overall quality of the phalanx is to poor. Low end phalanx should not make more than about 1/3 of the army - depending of course if we are talking about a main army, or some secondary force from the Satrapies/Strategies.

1 General
2 Hetairoi/FM
3 Heavy Cavalry
4 Light Cavalry
5 Heavy Spear (Hoplites, Hypaspistai, Thorakitai etc)
6 Heavy Sword (Peltastai Makedonikoi for example)
7 PhalanxA (Argyraspides, Klerouchon Agema)
8 PhalanxB (Klerouchoi Phalangitai, Pezhetairoi)
9 PhalanxB (")
10 PhalanxB (")
11 PhalanxC (Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Phalangitai Deuteroi, Machimoi Phalangitai)
12 PhalanxC (")
13 PhalanxC (")
14 Spear
15 Spear
16 Sword
17 Sword
18 Skirmisher
19 Missile
20 Missile

So perhaps a good compromise is that when it's an FM-led army, it should have a certain level of quality (fewer low-quality phalanxes, more faction-heavy infantry), but when captain-led more of the crap phalanxes and mercenaries?

Actually, levy phalangites where only used when short on medium phalangites, but that problem was solved partly by the katoikiai of the Hellenistic Kingdoms. So I guess a standing Successor army would consist of Klerouchoi, instead of Deuteroi or Pantodapoi.

Cavalry -- should generally be in greater numbers for the Seleukids than for the Ptolemies or Makedonians. so ~3 cavalry for every 10 units in a Seleukid army, and as many as 5 in a 15 unit stack, and less for the others.

Elites -- generally accompany "royal" armies, so FM's at least. The big-time elites (Ptolemaic palace agema, Sel. hypaspistai or picked thorakitai, Mak hypaspistai) should probably be reserved for kings and princes and perhaps the highest officials in the realm.

Flexibility -- its entirely possible to break the standard mold at times. you can have a successor army, led by a Satrap or by a non-FM, that doesn't look like a kingly successor army. it would likely be heavier on native troops or mercenaries, so as to avoid risking the lives of the bread-and-butter of the kingdom with a random general who's really only pulling border-guard duty. this also gives you an opportunity to role-play, if you have FM governors from certain places.

Royal armies -- for princes and kings mainly, but also some high officials -- assuming a full stack:

cavalry:
1x somatophylakes strategou
2-3x (Mak), 3-4x (Pto), 5-6x (Sel) other cavalry

phalanx:
2x (Mak and Pto), 3x (Sel) elite phalanx
OR remove 1 to add in palace agema or hypaspistai types
4-6x (Mak and Sel), 5-8x (Pto) medium phalanx
3-6x (all) secondary phalanx (machimoi, pantodapoi, deuteroi)

remainder:
for Seleukids or armies in Asia Minor, you might consider a Galatian allied army of about 3-4 units
for any you might consider some Kretans (probably 1, definitely no more than 2)
for Maks you might consider scattered units of Gauls, Illyrians, Thracians, and/or Greeks (or 1 of each!)
for Ptolemies you'd probably consider units depending on location: in Asia Minor, uazali; in Syria, ioudaioi taxeis or an Arab unit; in Egypt proper, some Galatian klerouchoi or extra Kretans.

Appreciate that, paullus, thanks.

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Originally Posted by paullus

Cavalry -- should generally be in greater numbers for the Seleukids than for the Ptolemies or Makedonians. so ~3 cavalry for every 10 units in a Seleukid army, and as many as 5 in a 15 unit stack, and less for the others.

Elites -- generally accompany "royal" armies, so FM's at least. The big-time elites (Ptolemaic palace agema, Sel. hypaspistai or picked thorakitai, Mak hypaspistai) should probably be reserved for kings and princes and perhaps the highest officials in the realm.

Flexibility -- its entirely possible to break the standard mold at times. you can have a successor army, led by a Satrap or by a non-FM, that doesn't look like a kingly successor army. it would likely be heavier on native troops or mercenaries, so as to avoid risking the lives of the bread-and-butter of the kingdom with a random general who's really only pulling border-guard duty. this also gives you an opportunity to role-play, if you have FM governors from certain places.

Royal armies -- for princes and kings mainly, but also some high officials -- assuming a full stack:

cavalry:
1x somatophylakes strategou
2-3x (Mak), 3-4x (Pto), 5-6x (Sel) other cavalry

phalanx:
2x (Mak and Pto), 3x (Sel) elite phalanx
OR remove 1 to add in palace agema or hypaspistai types
4-6x (Mak and Sel), 5-8x (Pto) medium phalanx
3-6x (all) secondary phalanx (machimoi, pantodapoi, deuteroi)

remainder:
for Seleukids or armies in Asia Minor, you might consider a Galatian allied army of about 3-4 units
for any you might consider some Kretans (probably 1, definitely no more than 2)
for Maks you might consider scattered units of Gauls, Illyrians, Thracians, and/or Greeks (or 1 of each!)
for Ptolemies you'd probably consider units depending on location: in Asia Minor, uazali; in Syria, ioudaioi taxeis or an Arab unit; in Egypt proper, some Galatian klerouchoi or extra Kretans.

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You've missed out the Psiloi! And The Thesasalonian Cavalry! Not many needed though, it's only another 4 units! I can fit that in and have 2 Agarian Assault Infantry (Allied Light Inf) I might switch one of my Elite Phalanxes for the Sword Royal Guard (forget the name).

Thanks so much though. For Pto, this will be superb, as with AS.

Cheers!

you're right, i did forget the psiloi. any thessalians would be within the cavalry complement i had listed, not a separate unit. 3-4 units of psiloi (peltastai etc) is a pretty good start, especially when at least some of the auxiliary units are also likely to fit into the category of psiloi.

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Originally Posted by paullus

you're right, i did forget the psiloi. any thessalians would be within the cavalry complement i had listed, not a separate unit. 3-4 units of psiloi (peltastai etc) is a pretty good start, especially when at least some of the auxiliary units are also likely to fit into the category of psiloi.

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I usually have 4 Units of cav, at least in my Mak armies. 1 Thessalians, 1 Companions, 2 Javelin-lobbing chaps (not Hippakontistai, the other lot). I'm going off the composioion of Alexanders armies, but the Maks at least hadn't changed uch to my knowledge. If it aint broke, don't fix it!

they didn't have the mounted capacity they had formerly had in Alexander's time. But if you'll look, my list advised one unit of companions (the somatophylakes) and 2-3 other cavalry units, so 3-4 total.

Bear in mind that even in the time of Philip II and Alexander, when the Macedonian cavalry had been considerably strengthened (more than tripled in size, perhaps) and supplemented with Thessalian cavalry as well, they didn't have a huuge number of cavalry:
Chaeronea - 2,000 cavalry, a little more than 6% of the total force (one unit, maybe 2, in a full stack in EB)
Granicus - 5,000 cavalry, or just over 10% of the total force (2, maybe 3 units in a full stack in EB)
Guagamela - perhaps 7,000 cavalry, or about 15% of the total force (3-5 units in a full stack in EB)

Cavalry made up roughly 8% of the Macedonian army at Cynoscephalae, and a little over 10% at Pydna.

Besides the inferiority in quantity later hellenistic cavalry also lacked the discipline, manoeuvrability and punching power of Alexander´s men.

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Originally Posted by paullus

they didn't have the mounted capacity they had formerly had in Alexander's time. But if you'll look, my list advised one unit of companions (the somatophylakes) and 2-3 other cavalry units, so 3-4 total.

Bear in mind that even in the time of Philip II and Alexander, when the Macedonian cavalry had been considerably strengthened (more than tripled in size, perhaps) and supplemented with Thessalian cavalry as well, they didn't have a huuge number of cavalry:
Chaeronea - 2,000 cavalry, a little more than 6% of the total force (one unit, maybe 2, in a full stack in EB)
Granicus - 5,000 cavalry, or just over 10% of the total force (2, maybe 3 units in a full stack in EB)
Guagamela - perhaps 7,000 cavalry, or about 15% of the total force (3-5 units in a full stack in EB)

Cavalry made up roughly 8% of the Macedonian army at Cynoscephalae, and a little over 10% at Pydna.

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I have 2 Units of Jav-lobbers, 1 of Thesses, 1 of Hetarioi and one General. That's all I need really.

from memory:

3 Psilioi
2 Peltasts (Tharaikian or otherwise)
1 General
1 Hetarioi
1 Hypastysts
6 Phalangitai
2 Allied Light Inf (Usually Agarian)
1 Thesso
2 Jav-Lobbers
1 other royal guard (not the spearmen, the other blokes)

And that's it!

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Originally Posted by paullus

they didn't have the mounted capacity they had formerly had in Alexander's time. But if you'll look, my list advised one unit of companions (the somatophylakes) and 2-3 other cavalry units, so 3-4 total.

Bear in mind that even in the time of Philip II and Alexander, when the Macedonian cavalry had been considerably strengthened (more than tripled in size, perhaps) and supplemented with Thessalian cavalry as well, they didn't have a huuge number of cavalry:
Chaeronea - 2,000 cavalry, a little more than 6% of the total force (one unit, maybe 2, in a full stack in EB)
Granicus - 5,000 cavalry, or just over 10% of the total force (2, maybe 3 units in a full stack in EB)
Guagamela - perhaps 7,000 cavalry, or about 15% of the total force (3-5 units in a full stack in EB)

Cavalry made up roughly 8% of the Macedonian army at Cynoscephalae, and a little over 10% at Pydna.

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Quite, although of course the Successors were to some extent in terminal decline after Alexander's death. Macedonia's position at game starty resembles the situation in 359 BC to a certain degree, but another Philippos II could have reversed that.

In other words I personally think it is permissable to raise the quantity of cavalry and regular line troops when your empire is stable and on the Up.

Generally my Makedonian Armies leave the Depy like this:

1 General
1 Hetairoi
1 Thessalian
1 Thrakkioi Prodomoi
1 Hippeis Thrakkioi
2 Argaraspides
4 Pezhetaroi
1 Hypaspists
2 Agrianans
2 Thrakkioi Peltastoi
1 Peltastoi
1 Hellenic Slingers
1 Kretan Archers
1 Peltastoi Makedonioi


Excuse my mangling of Greek, that's the basic set up, armies in the East tend to aquire losts of Persian archers and lose their peltasts. sometimes the cavalry contingent will rise as the psiloi drop off and I end up with a serious hammer for the anvil, generally phalangites replace losses in other units as the casualties mount up. I've coloured it to demonstrate the breakdown, Hellenic troops, Makedonian Royal and Regular troops and non-Hellenic vassels. It's more of a concept than a fixed breakdown.