1.2 - further and farther, the Qin Dynasty??

You guys do a wonderful job for giving us this free mod, it is literally the only thing I play on my computer nowadays, but I was wondering if you we're taking it any further. I read somewhere and maybe I'm wrong that there is a 'hard-coded limit' on the number of provinces one can make for the game. I mean, there has to be someone somewhere who would be able to help crack it, that would be the first ggreat step for 1.2 and beyond. I'm writing this thou because I had the idea that maybe someday you guys could include in it all the way to China and the Qin dynasty, and really just how epic of a game that would be. I dunno maybe it's just a dream that can't be done any time close to now, but I'd like to hear what others have to say.

And once again you guys [ and maybe girls? ] do a wonderful job.

There is a hardcoded limit on provinces, hardcoded limit on factions, hardcoded limit on DMB enteries (units that can be incorporated)--the list goes on and on. EB has fulfilled every hardcoded limit I know of. Besides, the Qin Dynasty was founded several decades after the start of EB I believe.

Sorry if I just crushed your dreams.:smash:

sorry but many intelligent people have tried and failed to find away around the hard code limit of 200 provinces. Best just to accept you will never see the Romani swimming in the Yangtze. And anyways the territories of India would be much closer and had a much larger impact on factions in the EB realm than China ever did in this time period. I really don't understand the amount of sinophilia on these forums when the diverity of peoples allready present with in the map.

in the time of the start of EB
the warring states was hampening
it was between the Han Wei , Qin, Shu, Yan, Jian and some other with a lot of city states
TBH
itd be quite intersting but you would need to create an new engine and such to incorperate all of ancient world if u want to have China and rome

btw
Qin dynasty only lasted 20somthing years before rebels destroyed it and founded the Han Dynasty
(500+ years...righ?)
intesrting
but im pretty sure if it does get made somehow into a region in EB
itd just steamroll everyone
(at the time of EB, pop is certainly over 10 mil in ancient china)

:D

we have a mod in progress about that remember? Asia Ton Barbarum (AtB) , but it looks like they dont have many members , so it might take a while :sweatdrop:

hmm i thought asia ton barbarorum's got nothing to do with china....

Irishguy, if you want to see china so much, y dunt you try to start another EB spin off...er..like "Sina ton barbarorum"? ^^;;

That would be "Kina ton Barbaron"

(Κίνα) being the greek word for china after it was unified by the Qin, the land of "Seires" or "people of the silkworms"

What actually were the relationships between the Hellenic states and the Chinese? How much did they know of eachother?

icic, thanks for the correction kev.

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Originally Posted by Hax

What actually were the relationships between the Hellenic states and the Chinese? How much did they know of eachother?

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I know they traded a fair amount, plus later on when bit's of the Hellenic powers were repeatedly pwned by China (Indo-Greeks were destroyed by them).

D= but thats cuz they got greedy and decided to rob the Han envoy instead of trading...

here's an excerpt of shiji:

...遂 不 肯 予 漢 使 。 漢 使 怒 ， 妄 言 ， 椎 金 馬 而 去 。 宛 貴 人 怒 曰 ： 「 漢 使 至 輕 我 ！ 」 遣 漢 使 去 ， 令 其 東 邊 郁 成 遮 攻 殺 漢 使 ， 取 其 財 物 。 於 是 天 子 大 怒 。 諸 嘗 使 宛 姚 定 漢 等 言 宛 兵 弱 ， 誠 以 漢 兵 不 過 三 千 人 ， 彊 弩 射 之 ， 即 盡 虜 破 宛 矣 。 天 子 已 嘗 使 浞 野 侯 攻 樓 蘭 ， 以 七 百 騎 先 至...

...漢無攻我，我盡出良馬，姿所取，而給漢軍食。即不聽我，我盡殺善馬。

I'm not a very good translator, but this is basically what happened:

Wu-ti's initial attempt to trade the Celetial Horses with gold coins was rejected by the king of Fergana and the Han envoy sent for the negotiation was murdered and stripped. When the news arrived Chang'an, Wuti was furious and decided to take them by force. He appointed Li Guangli to lead the expedition. In 104 BC, Li Guangli set off with 3000 soldiers. However they were not able to defeat Fergana and forced to retreat to Dunhuang. There Li Guangli with only few remaining men waited for the reinforcements from Wu-ti. In 102 BC, Wu-ti embarked the second military campaign in an army of 60,000 men marching out towards Fergana. They reached the capital and successfully besieged it. The Han army cut off their water supply with sappers and kill many men that tried to sally forth. In the end the inhabitants could stand no more, killed their king and surrendered. They returned to China with a great haul of the famous Fergana steeds. Fergana provided them with the best celetial horses as well as 3000 ordinary stallions and mares.

I'd love to see the Chinese as well, but that doesn't make it any less of a bad idea.

The problem is that there was almost no military contact between China and the west, and for good reasons. The geographical barriers between them are very difficult to traverse for anyone who isn't a steppe nomad. Merchant caravans had a difficult time following the Silk Road, so how much harder it would have been for an army? If it did get through, they would have been so exhausted that the defenders had a field day. But even supposing that they somehow got through and managed to defeat the defenders, the attacking still would be completely isolated with limited communications and no chance of reinforcements. In one word, it's impossible. I think the team was right at putting the edge of the map where it is.

Off course, there is no real way of simulating this with the R:TW engine, so if you are going to include the Chinese, expect to see armies marching up and down the Silk Road like it was the Persian one. For these reasons, China will not be included even if there were no hardcoded limits. Incidentally, hardcoded limits cannot be changed without reverse-engineering the source code and changing the .exe file. This is illegal however, as the .exe file is essentially the game itself, and SEGA will not look kindly upon any attempt at distributing altered .exe files.

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Originally Posted by Che Roriniho

I know they traded a fair amount, plus later on when bit's of the Hellenic powers were repeatedly pwned by China (Indo-Greeks were destroyed by them).

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Er... That where the Yuezhi, not the Chinese. There was a Han army sent to Sogdiana IIRC, but they were there to harry the nomads, not to conquer.

However, there is no way to simulate a Sino-Roman conflict in a campaign - just custom battles, but why using a slot for a faction that will never be used in the campaign?

Not counting the fact that nobody would be interested in doing a war against a VERY FAR nation which has a few things to do with your one and that you may trade with, instead staying both alive and in peace... an attempt to invade Europe by China or Asia by Romans would be a logistical suicide due to the extremely long distance and the hostile territories in between.
The ways to go in a place or in the other one are four:

1) through Asian steppes. Well, if you think that a lot of armies would march through this land without suffering heat, lack of supplies, attacks by the nomads, exhaustion... you may just send only one cavalry-based army against those nomads, as Ban Chao did, but going further? Unfortunately no. Unless you do a reform so that your empire will become itself a large nomadic horde, then you may conquer the plains like the Huns or the Mongols.

2) through the Himalayan mountains. Only one word: ROTFL.

3) through India and then Indochina. But the first step is to conquer and fully mantain in order one of the most populated regions of the world (I don't think that local rulers would allow your armies to pass and resupply for a campaign in the far west/east), which may be as hard as defeating the steppe nomads. Then you'll have to march through jungle - and don't forget the guerrilla tactics that local soldiers may use.
Will your legionaries stay alive in enough numbers to start the invasion of China (or the opposite)? I think that the answer isn't very good for an hypothetical general that is attempting to cross the Indus or the Ganges. Even an Eastern Greek or an Eastern faction may be interested in India but completely reject any idea of attacking the Far East.

4) through the ocean, from the Red Sea/Persian Gulf to the Chinese sea. However, ancient ships weren't enough advanced to perform a so long, riskful travel. Besides, loaded troops will suffer many typical diseases that even the Portuguese travelers encountered... it would be a useless, suicidal trip.

And even if you would be there, you'll be alone. Reinforcements will take a looooong time to arrive in enough numbers, unrest in occupied lands will harass your troops as well as unkown diseases, you'll have no possibilities to communicate with your homeland, you'll have to rely only on yourself and your limitated supplies and unhappy, exhausted soldiers.

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Originally Posted by Hax

What actually were the relationships between the Hellenic states and the Chinese? How much did they know of eachother?

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Chinese knew of the Greeks in Ferghana valley (where Alexandreia Eschate is located) and called it Da Yuan, meaning "Great Ionia". Ionians or Yona( in persian) or Yavana( in Sanskrit) were a subtribe of the Greeks who lived in the western shores of Asia Minor. After the failed Ionian rebellion (which also led to the Persian wars between Achaimenid Persia and the greek city states) the surviving rebels were sent to Baktria mostly (Alexander found Greeks already living there when he invaded) and a few to India (Panini's grammar of Sanskrit mentions an example of a Yavana a century before Alexandros reached India).

-It has also been suggested that present day Begram in Afghanistan was originally Pergamon named as such by the Ionians of Pergamon resettled there-

Now back to the chinese and definite interactions between them and the Bactrians/IndoGreeks, well the answer is that all evidence pointing to that direction are inconclusive, but they do exist.

-IndoGreek coins that used a chinese analogy in their material.
-Many statues/artefacts in present day China which demonstrate that there was a definite connection between Bactria and Qin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UrumqiSoldier.jpg

There was also some questions as to whether there was some influence in the creation of the
Terracota army guarding First emperor Chi Huang Ti or Shi Huang Di (sorry for the incorrect spelling, not a Chinese speaker) had anything to do with Greek sculpting and its techniques. Especially so, as the army was painted in very bright colours,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...tta_colour.jpg
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...and_Detail.JPG
exactly as ancient greek statues were. The whole issue is under debate of course, unless something concrete can be found.

So far as the Heavely horses incident is concerned, Tarn thinks that the city that was besieged wasn't Alexandreia Eschate but Cyropolis, the easternmost city founded as a guardian to its empire byAchaimenid king Cyros the great (Kurush in Persian). By that time it wasn't greek controlled, it was probably been held by a Kushana ruler, but Greeks did exist there in substantial numbers, and what the defenders did (in terms of besieging tricks) was deffinitely something that Greeks would do in case of siege... meaning building a second wall in the inner city if the first one would be undermined, and so forth.

As for translations of Chinese characters into Wade-Giles/Pinyin, I first one stays more true to how a Chinese word is said. For example, Mao Tse Tung was told exactly that way by the Chinese. With Pinyin (Which curiously, I use more), it is now Mao Zedong. A stupid thing which happened on one of my history exams is that I wrote Mao Zedong on it's most modern form, and whoever corrected it underlined the name as if it was incorrect. That prompted my request to re-correct my exam.

I think these maps will convince everyone of the reasons why there will not be any China:

http://geography.about.com/gi/dynami...ew/chinam.html
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map08ch.htm

xD just china itself would take more than half the settlement slots....like i suggested be4, make a fan-spin off instead.

That, and the ~7 factions which are of greater power in 272BC. than... say the SPQR. :rolleyes:

Yes, with the addition of China and all possible important factions between the Atlantic and the Pacific we would have to reduce the number of factions in Europe to two: "Celts" and "Greeks".

not to mention that the RTW engine would do a lousy job in representing chinese warfare properly....

I think China would really only be done justice if someone were to make a total war game based off the warring states in China, Japan, the Eastern Steppes all the way down to Indochina. Really, there is so much going on in this region and so much there, that it would need its own mod entirely.

HOWEVER, if someone WERE to create this game, the western most boundery would probably have to be a Bactrian faction. And that would be cool.......

did the Romans know about China, Japan, India, and other eastern powers and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Majd il-Romani

did the Romans know about China, Japan, India, and other eastern powers and vice versa?

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If memory serves, I seem to recall that the Romans and the Han dynasty exchanged an ambassadorial visit of some sort during either the time of Marcus Aurelius or Antonius Pius. The details escape me at this point, but that would imply that the Romans had at least some vague concept of what was out there. Someone with more knowledge than I can probably flesh this out a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Majd il-Romani

did the Romans know about China, Japan, India, and other eastern powers and vice versa?

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Certainly they knew a lot of India. They also had (little) contact with Eastern Asia by trade. I recall to have read about Roman coins being found in places in Indochina. Roman merchants definitly reached China too, of course only in very small numbers, probably by ship from Eygpt via India.

Some say there had been a Roman colony in Western China founded by POWs of the Battle of Carrhae (53 BC) who were moved to the far east by the Parthians and somehow later became Chinese mercenaries. It is more likely that this settlement was an Indo-Greek outpost on the Silk Route, if any European colony existed out there at all.

China in return knew of Rome (Daqin) and that she was the leading power in the West ruling over hundreds of fortified towns and dozends of minor kings.

But the Parthians blocked as much of the direct contact as possible because they lived well from the East-West trade.

I have a book that describes the arms and tactics of the Qin army during the late warring states. Of course, it's based on what's excavated so far from the terracotta army (they say only half at most is uncovered so far), so the whole picture is still a mystery. I'll translate and summerise bits of it if you are interested =]

Yes. please do. I would like to learn about the differences between China's army and those of the EB factions.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

I'd love to see the Chinese as well, but that doesn't make it any less of a bad idea.

The problem is that there was almost no military contact between China and the west, and for good reasons. The geographical barriers between them are very difficult to traverse for anyone who isn't a steppe nomad. Merchant caravans had a difficult time following the Silk Road, so how much harder it would have been for an army? If it did get through, they would have been so exhausted that the defenders had a field day. But even supposing that they somehow got through and managed to defeat the defenders, the attacking still would be completely isolated with limited communications and no chance of reinforcements. In one word, it's impossible. I think the team was right at putting the edge of the map where it is.

Off course, there is no real way of simulating this with the R:TW engine, so if you are going to include the Chinese, expect to see armies marching up and down the Silk Road like it was the Persian one. For these reasons, China will not be included even if there were no hardcoded limits. Incidentally, hardcoded limits cannot be changed without reverse-engineering the source code and changing the .exe file. This is illegal however, as the .exe file is essentially the game itself, and SEGA will not look kindly upon any attempt at distributing altered .exe files.

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I can't understand this line of reasoning... including China in a map with the rest of the west is no more unrealistic than including the Iberians in the same game map as the Bactrians. Sure, it would be unrealistic for the Chinese to march on the Seleucids, for instance, but then again, it's just as unrealistic for the Ptolemies to march on Carthage, or the Macedonians to invade Iberia. Besides, within the game numerous mechanisms could be put in place to prevent the Chinese spreading west too easily (the sheer distance, for one).

IMO, the ultimate would be for a team like EB, if not the EB team itself, to create an engine for their own game in which they can simulate the entire old world on the scale of RTW.

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Now back to the chinese and definite interactions between them and the Bactrians/IndoGreeks, well the answer is that all evidence pointing to that direction are inconclusive, but they do exist.

-IndoGreek coins that used a chinese analogy in their material.
-Many statues/artefacts in present day China which demonstrate that there was a definite connection between Bactria and Qin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UrumqiSoldier.jpg

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How does the Tuanchang bronze figurine indicate links between Bactria and Qin? Even if it were indicative of Greek influence in the Tarim basin (which it is not), these only demonstrate links between the settled peoples of the basin and the west, peoples who also had contact with the Chinese but who were not Chinese themselves.

Quote:

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There was also some questions as to whether there was some influence in the creation of the
Terracota army guarding First emperor Chi Huang Ti or Shi Huang Di (sorry for the incorrect spelling, not a Chinese speaker) had anything to do with Greek sculpting and its techniques. Especially so, as the army was painted in very bright colours,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...tta_colour.jpg
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:T...and_Detail.JPG
exactly as ancient greek statues were. The whole issue is under debate of course, unless something concrete can be found.

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There had been a tradition in China for a century or so before the burial of Shi Huang Di of painting miniature terracotta figurines in bright colours. Analyses of the actual pigments used show them to be different in many ways from western varieties (Egyptian, Greek, and Near Eastern). To argue that these statues are indicative of links to the Greeks is absurd, and makes about as much sense as arguing for a link between China and the Greeks because both used swords.

Sure, one huge mape, ranging from Iberia to Japan would be fun, but with the limitations of the engine, the huge size and diverity of the regions that would have to be added, and the gargantuan workload it would result in for the modders, having to do meticulous research, modeling and scripting, it seems quite impossible. One can always hope that ETW's engine will be able to support it, but as clearly stated in the FAQ, it is at this point not possible to guess wether there will be an EB3 for that engine or not. (I'll keep my fingers crossed, though:yes:)

Actually Konny, to make things simple, y don't you open a thread and throw me questions, and I'll try to answer them...

...don't expect me to be able to give you everything tho, for I only know as much as the amount of info i can dig up, and akin to the spirit of EB, i don't make assumptions. =]

Asian (Chinese and Japanese) warfare from the 'ancient' period up through the 19th century largely consisted of individual duels on the battlefield. Properly speaking, the Chinese really don't stand a chance against most of the factions depicted in EB because of how they fought. Only in massed archery could they achieve parity, but once the melee was joined...