Reworked phalanxes by Connacht
After trying Fanatic's phalanx mod, I did some modifies on my original EDU that change some things (btw there isn't the aquilifer in the file on the bottom of the page and elephants and chariots are EB vanilla, I modified an original EDU not his one).
The fact is that, even if I like a lot his idea and his mod, the first times I noticed some Spartan hoplites that in 1vs1 managed to push inside a phalanx and break its formation. I don't know why this happened and if I was just unlucky but I still wanted to make some changes, searching a "compromise" between different strengths.
The features of my EDU are:
- hoplites have again the light_spear trait instead of spear, thus they still push but not as before
- some little adjustments in the hoplite defence values, that are still strong in the front because of the shield (but may be vulnerable to arrows, that ignore defensive skill values).
- new, I added the short_pike value to hoplites or hoplitical-based units that hadn't it, in example Sacred Bands or Dacian Phalanxs. However I didn't add it to Helvetii phalanxes and Alpine phalanxes.
- phalanxes have restored their high attack ratings.
- changed phalanx defensive values. They have more shield values, not so much armor, so they are even more stronger in the front. However I mantained low melee attack rates (I even decreased more some ones).
- some minor changes of little relevance and that have not much to do with the topic (i.e. Camillan Hastati a bit weaker, prices of phalanxes etc.).
I tested any change in the EDU file with some custom battles and, for now, it seems to go well (for now, I repeat).
Hoplites, when in a close formation, still behave very well against enemies. Some spearmen, like antesignani, alpine phalanxes, speutogardoz or Norici, had different results against them. Sometimes they won, when they surrounded a disorganized hoplite unit; sometimes they lost, when the hoplites remained in order and pressed their enemies. However they had something to say against phalanxes only when, in the confusion of the battle, the men drifted on the right and some soldiers were able to engage some few enemies on the flank - just like in reality a phalanx needs support and can't be always alone.
Swordsmen generally were able to defeat hoplites (but not so easily as cutting butter with a hot blade), but I also used only strong units like pheraspidai or Indian cults.
Cavalry may be able to do damage with a powerful charge, but it is always defeated when the melee continues.
The phalanxes seemed to work well. However, in my tests battles maybe were too long, in 1vs1 fights both the phalanx and its opponent were exhausted and still they had enough men to continue the fight.
Enemy infantry units (swordsmen, hoplites, spearmen) generally weren't able to get closer to phalangites, but if their men were enough and they weren't in guard position then the soldiers normally tried to surround the phalanx, thus entering in melee combat with few men on the flanks. There they managed to destroy the phalanx one man at once, as normal, unless they suffered too many casualties and routed before the phalanx.
I tried also some custom battles with phalanx armies against non-phalanx armies and I won with both sides.
I also tried an assault with phalangites without phalanx formation against enemy heavy infantry in order to test if phalangites, that have low attack values but a lot of shield, would be crushed too early or would surprisingly be able to defeat enemies. In my battle they lasted for some time (also thanks to their number) but then they wavered and then routed, however I should do many more tests against different types of infantrymen.
I don't know how the campaign will progress with the AI using these stats, anyway.
Right clic and save the file:
http://www.cbland.net/Connacht/export_descr_unit.txt
I'd like to have your opinion. If you think that it is balanced or unbalanced, if the game goes well or not, if there are some faults, if something should/must be changed.
So please tell me if these values work or they absolutely suck. :)
Re: Reworked phalanxes by Connacht
Quote:
The fact is that, even if I like a lot his idea and his mod, the first times I noticed some Spartan hoplites that in 1vs1 managed to push inside a phalanx and break its formation. I don't know why this happened and if I was just unlucky but I still wanted to make some changes, searching a "compromise" between different strengths.
Remember that Macedonian phalanxes have the spear attribute as well (with my modifications, that is). When you take guard mode off, they can push with immense force as well. I did this to have phalanxes have a crushing push but less killing power (reduced attack) until the enemy breaks and routs. Battles also last longer this way.
Quote:
- new, I added the short_pike value to hoplites or hoplitical-based units that hadn't it, in example Sacred Bands or Dacian Phalanxs. However I didn't add it to Helvetii phalanxes and Alpine phalanxes.
Interesting. Did you test the spear and sword equipped infantry (Dacian Light Phalanx, Sacred Band, etc.) after giving them short_pike? From my tests this was extremely buggy. I'll try it again though. I hope you're right.
@Those interested in trying this: make sure you save this EDU file in your sp game edu backup folder if you use trivialscript. This is the sp/campaign EDU. Placing it directly in your Data folder will cause it to be overwritten when you start up EB.
Re: Reworked phalanxes by Connacht
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TWFanatic
Remember that Macedonian phalanxes have the spear attribute as well (with my modifications, that is). When you take guard mode off, they can push with immense force as well. I did this to have phalanxes have a crushing push but less killing power (reduced attack) until the enemy breaks and routs. Battles also last longer this way.
Hmmm, I tried both guarded and unguarded mode. For some reasons however sometimes I noticed hoplites pushing back phalanxes; while it's good that hoplites and phalanxes have reduced killing power until an enemy breaks, I wanted to search a compromise so that they still have strong pushing abilities in long battles but with stronger phalanxes.
So I'm here asking to you what do you think of my stats, if I was completely wrong with them or if I did some nice changes.
Quote:
Did you test the spear and sword equipped infantry (Dacian Light Phalanx, Sacred Band, etc.) after giving them short_pike? From my tests this was extremely buggy. I'll try it again though. I hope you're right.
I tried some full battles (not 1vs1) and when using spears they were well close in formation, but when I ordered them to attack an enemy, depending on it they might mantain the hoplitical formation or switch to swords. However, with swords they seemed to engage enemies in a more flexible melee. It could be seen as rubbish if one wants them to mantain the same behaviour, though.
The thing I fear mostly however is that they could unbalance the game.
Uh, I forgot to say that I didn't give the short_pike to Iphikratous Hoplitai since their description say that they had longer spears and were more mobile than other past hoplites IIRC.
Re: Reworked phalanxes by Connacht
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TWFanatic
Interesting. Did you test the spear and sword equipped infantry (Dacian Light Phalanx, Sacred Band, etc.) after giving them short_pike? From my tests this was extremely buggy. I'll try it again though. I hope you're right.
Ok, I noticed a strange thing: when playing with some Dacian units against cavalry for a comparison, Dacian phalanxes switched to swords, while Dacian elite infantrymen switched normally from sword to spear. This is a strange behaviour (also because other times I saw units fighting with their spears even against infantry). Apparently the AI thinks that sometimes swords are better than spears with short_pike attribute against cavalry, I don't know why. So, either we try to modify further unit stats in order to force soldiers to use spears when they should do (possibly without requiring to change then all other units in order to balance everything) or we restore vanilla spears for them.
I don't think that removing the second weapon from them would be a good idea, although some hoplites, like Massilian ones, could be really strange fighting like any other spearman and not like other hoplites...
