Are Polybian Units better than Marian? Discussion about Stats

I have reinstalled EB after a long hiatus.

Basically, I have one concern for unit stats. Right now I was testing Romani unit strenghts vs. Hellenic, Celtic and Lusotannan units when I discovered that the stats of the Post-Marian and Augustan Cohorts were nerfed yet again, the first time being in 1.0 with Elite Cohorts and the Cohors Imperatoria.

Now, I have one concern with the viability of these units after these nerfs. First, the Cohors Reformata now, and I will be blunt about it, looks like a joke of an unit. They are inferior to Polybian Principes and equal to Camillan ones despite the heaps of heavy equipment they get, besides their attack was nerfed. I will post the relevant parts; now it looks like this (correct me if I am wrong):

Camillan Principes:

Price: c. 1100
Attack: 11 (if we count light_spear against infantry, if not about 15 vs. Cavalry)
Defence: 22
Missile: 4 (AP)
Lethality: 0.13
Numbers (Huge settings): 160 + 2

Polybian Principes:

Price: c. 1200
Attack: 11
Defence: 24
Missile: 4 (AP)
Lethality: 0.13
Numbers (Huge settings): 160 + 2

Cohors Reformata:

Price: c. 1700 (!)
Attack: 11
Defence: 22
Missile: idem
Lethality: idem
Numbers (Huge settings): 200 + 2

What concerns me more is that despite their greater numbers the fellows in the Cohors Reformata will die easily, more so than Polybian Heavy Infantry. In fact their stats are equal, individually, to Polybian Hastati. The most striking problem is their cost effectiveness; whereas before at least the unit had a good bang for the buck, now it is just expensive rubbish compared to what I can recruit in Pre-Marian times, in sum, not remotely cost effective. And what happens when there is a battle and you lose men? Tada, they will soon be nothing but Hastati, a pity for powergamers who like to make legions only of Principes from the start.

Therefore I have some questions to ask: why were the stats further nerfed? Is that definitive?

I, for one, liked the way they boosted the stats of Praetorians and Evocatae in 1.1, but to me the further nerfing of Cohors Reformata and Cohors Imperatoria kills gameplay; the only way I would win would be by flooding them with men like water, but for that I could just buy levy spearmen or other cheap units. In sum, I think the Cohors Reformata is now an useless unit, except for the larger AOR.

Note: I could mod this myself, however I am just sharing my concerns. I could merely delay the Marian Reforms a long time but my RTW experience as Romans was always one of anxiety for them. Now however I think this has changed.

Works well for me though, after a few large battles, a few merges and the occasional retrain...they're gd killers...

Remember, marian legions are not recruited from well-to-do landowners, they're ur guy-on-dole u see in the streets taking military service for a chance of luck. Quantity itself is a form of quality =]

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Originally Posted by satalexton

Works well for me though, after a few large battles, a few merges and the occasional retrain...they're gd killers...

Remember, marian legions are not recruited from well-to-do landowners, they're ur guy-on-dole u see in the streets taking military service for a chance of luck. Quantity itself is a form of quality =]

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But then you must take into account that post-Marians were at least partially a permanent army, whereas Camillan and Polybian units were made of temporary farmers who only knew of war and training a few days before the battle. However my concern is more with gameplay, since the Marian Reforms give a worse unit than Polybian Principes for a far bigger cost.

farming makes a man strong, slouching in the streets begging for pennies does not :P

You can get post-marian legions nearly anywhere.

AOR is not a big issue since I'm always sending a constant flow of replacements from Camillan times on to fill the ranks after big battles and keep pressing on with my legions. and the Polybian AOR already encompasses the source of most of your soldiers until the Augustan times, that is, Italy.

Not being cost-effective is entirely justified. After all the state now bore the full cost of equipping, training and paying the men.

Good point, Quintus. But they were still proffesionals, and shouldn't that count for something...?
:inquisitive:

Um, I've got 1.1 and the cost for cohors reformata is 1790 not 2700. Adding in the cost of 40 new men plus 1 point to morale it isn't far off. Also, I think there is a little debate as to what time the reformed cohorts should be considered professional. I believe the team went with post-augustan, with the marian mules being simply a larger part of the population being equipped by the state for war (as they couldn't be expected to do it for themselves anymore).

I'm no expert though.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Foot

Um, I've got 1.1 and the cost for cohors reformata is 1790 not 2700. Adding in the cost of 40 new men plus 1 point to morale it isn't far off. Also, I think there is a little debate as to what time the reformed cohorts should be considered professional. I believe the team went with post-augustan, with the marian mules being simply a larger part of the population being equipped by the state for war (as they couldn't be expected to do it for themselves anymore).

I'm no expert though.

Foot

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Well, the very first "Mules" (the drafts of reinforcements for the Numidian War) were trained by Publius Rutilius Rufus, who even wrote a manual on the training of troops (which unfortunately hasn't survived).

Okay, we have a misunderstanding of the term. All militias were trained. Training does not equal professional. Professional is where there is no other occupation that hinders their service, as I am aware I believe that members of the roman team have stated that before the Augustan reforms the legions were largely (not entirely) disbanded after a campaign. Over time this would have course led to the same people being called up who would become better and better but we have the Evocata for that. I'm sure a roman team member would be able to answer better, however.

Foot

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Originally Posted by russia almighty

You can get post-marian legions nearly anywhere.

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QFT
sure, you'll lose more men in average compared to polybian units, yet your draft pool get significantly bigger after marian reforms (anywhere there's a marian MIC built).
It also means you don't have to go through the logistic of shipping men back and forth from Italy to the warzone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poulp'

QFT
sure, you'll lose more men in average compared to polybian units, yet your draft pool get significantly bigger after marian reforms (anywhere there's a marian MIC built).
It also means you don't have to go through the logistic of shipping men back and forth from Italy to the warzone.

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I can't wait to get Marian. Taking a flipping Age though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foot

Okay, we have a misunderstanding of the term. All militias were trained. Training does not equal professional. Professional is where there is no other occupation that hinders their service, as I am aware I believe that members of the roman team have stated that before the Augustan reforms the legions were largely (not entirely) disbanded after a campaign. Over time this would have course led to the same people being called up who would become better and better but we have the Evocata for that. I'm sure a roman team member would be able to answer better, however.

Foot

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Training was different, though. Polybian soldiers were trained to maneuver at the manipular and legion level, not how to handle a sword and shield. It was assumed fathers, brothers, uncles and so on would be doing that away from campaign. Many men would already have experience of campaigning previously, because they were called up repeatedly.

Post-Marian troops were trained in everything they did, because it was no longer assumed that there would be male relatives to do the training. The point of the Evocata is that they're men who had signed on for the full term, and returned. Most men who were disbanded would actually be demobilised to farming colonies, not re-recruited.

However, many post-Marian units weren't disbanded for a long time, campaigns could last decades, and some units were never brought home. No they weren't fully professional, but they were no longer citizen levies like Polybian men were.

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

Well, the very first "Mules" (the drafts of reinforcements for the Numidian War) were trained by Publius Rutilius Rufus, who even wrote a manual on the training of troops (which unfortunately hasn't survived).

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Well actually after Marius gained his first consulship he had to levy fresh troops. The Senate hoped he would lose his popular support after the resentment of levy, but anyway.. Marius levied enough troops to bring the current legions in Africa up to strength. After the African campaign, Marius disbanded his army and took over the troops from Rutilius Rufus that he had been training. Point is, the first mules were Marius' men he levied for the African campaign, as its common knowledge among Marius adaptations were his banning baggage train and pack mules. After all, they are called Marius' mules and not Rufus' mules for a reason.

what is the break-down of the 22 defense the Cohors Reformata has? (armor, defense skill, shield...)

Must be the missing greave.

The evidence suggests that a Marian unit could be levied, equipped and then shipped out in a matter of weeks. The Centurians were responsible for training and there was no formal manual, much like the American Army until the 1970's. It was generally reconned that it took 4 months to train a legionary so a fair bit of the more advanced stuff was done on campaign. The Evocata represent re-enlisted men, be it 5 or 20 years service. The long-standing units would be represented by Cohors Reformata with chevrons.

Cohors Reformata are lethal when you get a few chevrons, so just wait until they have fought a few battles and it will get easier and easier.

the only possible issue i see is that the cohors reformata might be missing 1 point of armor based on the skin...

I just finished a book by Stephen Dando-Collins called "Caesars Legion", which follows the Tenth from it's very first enlistment in Spain by Julius Caesar, through his Iberian and Gallic campaigns, civil wars, and service in the East for hundreds of years. It contains a lot of details that I wasn't aware of, such as legions not being "topped up" with new recruits between enlistment years (16 years initially, increased to 20 by Augustus). Using this "enlistment factor" they can determine the average age and experience of a legion at various times throughout history.

It's a fairly interesting read for a non-fiction book, and not especially "heavy", so easy to follow. I'd recommend it for anyone following this thread wanting to find a little more detail, without wanting to have to read a scholarly text.

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Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon

Note: I could mod this myself, however I am just sharing my concerns. I could merely delay the Marian Reforms a long time but my RTW experience as Romans was always one of anxiety for them. Now however I think this has changed.

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This is what I did, and without upsetting everything.

Simply the reformatae now have the same armor of the polybian principes, who still have 1 more point in defense skills since they are veterans.
Besides, I decreased a little the armor of the hastati, especially the Camillan ones who have also 10 attack points instead of 11 (thus simulating that in Polybian times they get better equipment, for instance the gladius hispaniensis after the battles against Iberian troops of Carthaginian armies).

IMHO these stats work good and could be taken into consideration further than for a custom edu.

The fundamental problem must be addressed if we are to understand why the statistics are as they are. The crux of the matter is that we cannot properly represent the dissimilarity between the methods the Romans (or any other people for that matter) used in recruiting and fielding militaries throughout their history. Roman amateurism was largely responsible for many of its defeats in the Second Punic War, but again it is impossible to differentiate between that amateurism and the professionalism of later “post-Marian” armies as they are commonly termed. Yet even before Marius, when a Roman general managed to keep an army in the field for years at a time it proved to not be in any way inferior to a later, “professional” army. As the bond between commander and the commanded grew alongside the skill of both, legions levied as a militia became every bit as cohesive and professional as legions recruited with the intent of not returning home for the harvest. Publius Cornelius Scipio is the most obvious example, but there are others as well. We often have an exaggerated understanding of the effect of Marius’ reforms on the Roman military when in reality it was more of a process of evolution than revolution. By Marius’ time many Roman armies had already been in the field for considerable lengths of time without respite.

Thus, one of our problems is that the player is free to keep militia armies in the field for as long as he wants with no repercussions. He doesn’t have to bring his men home every fall so that they may reap their harvests. It also takes the same amount of time to levy a pre and post-Marian legion.

I personally have tried to counter these problems by following this system:

• Increase the cost of “militia” unit upkeep and decrease the cost of recruitment by an equal percentage. Polybian legions have a lower percentage than Camilan legions to represent the fact that they frequently fought longer wars further away from home.
• Decrease the cost of “professional” unit upkeep and increase the cost of recruitment by an equal percentage.
• Create a script so that it takes only one turn to levy a complete legion (no matter what the era).
• Keep militia armies in the field no longer than three turns and then return them to the province in which they were recruited and disband them. Should I fail to do this, the heavy upkeep costs will punish me fiscally. Through traits the morale of a general’s army may be reduced if he fails to return them home by the proper time. A few exceptionally charismatic generals will be able to
• Keep professional armies in the field 15-20 years or until there is an opportunity to disband them due to old age.

Unfortunately this system has many shortcomings. The most notable of these is the restrictions placed on a player--how can a war be waged in a few seasons? I have tried increasing movement points but this also has unintended consequences. RTW is a turned-based game and unfortunately, even with EB’s four turns per year, we cannot overcome these hurdles. I must admit that I frequently broke my own rules out of necessity and regularly kept amateur legions in the field for years on end. Another annoyance is that this system cannot be used with the AI as it does not disband units AFAIK and will recruit entire legions left and right when it finds the cash. It is also rather unfair to represent the Roman methods of recruitment this wholly but ignore those of other peoples. I thought about following a similar path with all units by giving them a description as “militia, semi-professional, professional, mercenary, etc.” and modify their recruitment accordingly, but it would take a colossal amount of work to edit them all in this way and in the end it would probably all come to naught.

I hope that somewhere in there I gave an explanation of why, IMHO, the post-Marian legionaries and principes were given the stats that they have. Principes, some of whom technically having experience from the get-go, are men in their prime by Roman standards. Marius’ mules, to use the slang term, were recruited at a very young age and as such have the prime of their life ahead of them. During that time they will gather experience that the principes should not accumulate (beyond a certain point) as they should not be in the field nearly as long. It would be in keeping with the overall philosophy of EB if this was done in protest of the image that professional Roman legionaries were somehow invincible from the moment they took the sacramentum. Take Caesar for instance, it took eight years of the mutual-building of trust for his legions to develop the loyalty to follow him across the Rubicon.

Unfortunately it is nigh impossible to represent these historical truths because of the RTW-engine’s limitations. At least, that is my understanding of the matter.

As you have said, it is impossible to implement such things into RTW because the engine is not built for it (leave alone the AI). For example no player would disband a unit of whatsoever that is still needed for the winter turn only to pay for raising the same unit a turn later again.

There are some possible workarounds to make the game fit for a (not existing in RTW) militia recruitement system like a 6- or 12-turns per year script or making recruitment costs for militia units 0. But that would not make disbanding-raising-disbanding a unit more usefull because you would absolutly not benefit from it. It is also not possible to do anything of the like by scripting because the script cannot keep track of single units nor can EDCT.

We have to take it that a single unit of, say, Hastati does not represent the 160 (or what scale ever) men recruited in Spring 263 BC in Ariminum, but in general a unit of Hastati in which the men are exchanged on regular level when their term is over beeing replaced by fresh drafts.

Thanks, Foot. I've corrected the values; I was taking them from my mind so no guarantee I was 100% right.

Right now I am reading the rich material here for a reply.

Interesting notes, here. I have read in the EBII forums that a system for the kleurochoi will be instituted that will allow zero maintenance once they're home (in a city), taming their farms, but will make the player pay them full time if they're outside to represent the costs and troubles with taking the farmers out of the fields, especially in the wrong season. I'm eager to have this implemented with the Romani so that the biggest advantage of Post-Marian troops would be their ability to stay on the field for a long time with a better cost-effective relation. This will also hamper Roman recruitment and make the Roman player think twice before sending masses of men needed on the fields away from Rome, making the economic impact of the Punic Wars more felt than now where I can just flood Carthage with my manpower and get richer than ever.

Apart from that, I agree that Legions were levied comparatively quickly. However I do not think that the Post-Marian system can include Augustan units realistically. Augustus did focus on a smaller, more professional force supported by lots of auxiliaries, so the Cohors Reformata could be left as it is but the Imperatoria can work more or less like the Evocata: reduce their numbers, increase their stats and price. At least this would fit RTW better than the militia system here proposed. Just my two cents.