Spear units

Hi!

I've a few questions concerning spear units:

1) From earlier versions of EB to the current one you have changed most (if not all) spears to use the "light_spear" attribute instead of "spear". I suppose you have done it because of the pushing power of the latter, however I'm not sure you've taken into account that while "spear" gives -4 to attack vs. infantry "light_spear" gives -4 to defense. Thus the +4 bonus to attack most EB spear units have (which makes them appear overpowered at first glance) should be probably changed into a defence bonus (though +4 seems too much imo, else what's the point in using swords when spears are better in any situation?). Am I wrong?

2) Is it possible in any way to have hoplite using a correct animation (shorter spears, and no terrain dragging when marching)? If it's not possible to do it officially, is it possible to do it manually (e.g. I've tried Signiferone's animation but EB's spears points the wrong way with that animation). :help:s

Thanks for your time! EB rocks!

1) good question.
2) I add short_pike in the EDU to all hoplite units.

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Originally Posted by Demivrgvs

Hi!

I've a few questions concerning spear units:

1) From earlier versions of EB to the current one you have changed most (if not all) spears to use the "light_spear" attribute instead of "spear". I suppose you have done it because of the pushing power of the latter, however I'm not sure you've taken into account that while "spear" gives -4 to attack vs. infantry "light_spear" gives -4 to defense. Thus the +4 bonus to attack most EB spear units have (which makes them appear overpowered at first glance) should be probably changed into a defence bonus (though +4 seems too much imo, else what's the point in using swords when spears are better in any situation?). Am I wrong?

2) Is it possible in any way to have hoplite using a correct animation (shorter spears, and no terrain dragging when marching)? If it's not possible to do it officially, is it possible to do it manually (e.g. I've tried Signiferone's animation but EB's spears points the wrong way with that animation). :help:s

Thanks for your time! EB rocks!

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1. yes this is true and the EB team has previously been made aware of it (by me :2thumbsup:)

2. you need 3ds max to rotate the spears back.

The spear stats have been adjusted to compensate for the hardcoded effects of the spear modifiers with the last EB update.

The hoplites do use the "correct animation". For some reason, the spears do often appear too large on some detail levels, but the spears dragging through the ground should have been fixed (or at least I thought the fix was done before the last release).

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Originally Posted by Demivrgvs

"light_spear" gives -4 to defense.

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Why is that so? Any historical realism in that or just RTW game balance?

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Why is that so? Any historical realism in that or just RTW game balance?

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because the defense skill portion of the overall defense score is parrying bonus. it is more difficult to parry with a spear than a sword...

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

The spear stats have been adjusted to compensate for the hardcoded effects of the spear modifiers with the last EB update.

The hoplites do use the "correct animation". For some reason, the spears do often appear too large on some detail levels, but the spears dragging through the ground should have been fixed (or at least I thought the fix was done before the last release).

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Spear stats have been adjusted to compensate for the hardcoded effects but they would compensate the "spear" attribute, not "light_spear". It doesn't change too much in terms of balance, but at the moment spear units kill faster (+4 attack) and suffer casualties faster (-4 defence). By switching the bonus from attack to defence you would have longer fights, which is more in line with EB if I'm not wrong.

Are you suggesting to change "unit detail" to have shorter spear? I'll try it out, though I never noticed any change with different "unit details" settings.

The spears dragging the ground haven't been fixed unfortunately...I do hope they will with 1.2! :beam:

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Why is that so? Any historical realism in that or just RTW game balance?

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The -4 defence bonus of "light_spear" is hardcoded, and it seems EB members would prefer it to be fully compensated. Personally I would prefer it to be left un-compensated, or only partially compensated, as "light_spear" also grants +4 defence against cavalry, and having only the bonus without its drawback seems unfair to me (spear > sword in every situation). Just my 2 cents.

um so you can spear someone in a castle staircase? good luck with that mate...

They actually kill slower, as spears have a lower lethality and other weapons(Especially 2 handers and Longswords) have a much higher lethality.

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

They actually kill slower, as spears have a lower lethality and other weapons(Especially 2 handers and Longswords) have a much higher lethality.

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Well, actually many swords have 0.13 lethality, and most spears (spearmen and hoplites) have 0.13 too. Phalangite's pikes have 0.17 which is even higher, but high quality swords like celtic's ones have better lethality (e.g. gaesatae's 0.225).

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

They actually kill slower, as spears have a lower lethality and other weapons(Especially 2 handers and Longswords) have a much higher lethality.

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Yeah, but check out the cavalry spears. Their lethality can be as high as .335, which I believe is as high as lethality goes in EB.

Yes or a lance, which is a shock weapon, and is otherwise useless in close-combat (with long delays between each strike). I'm not sure how that is an example against what Olaf said. Spears on the whole have lower lethality, putting forward the example of a specialist weapon doesn't change that fact.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Foot

Yes or a lance, which is a shock weapon, and is otherwise useless in close-combat (with long delays between each strike). I'm not sure how that is an example against what Olaf said. Spears on the whole have lower lethality, putting forward the example of a specialist weapon doesn't change that fact.

Foot

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Well you really can't compare cavalry lances with Infantry spears, as they don't have the anti-calv trait, spear trait, and are armor piercing. I

But you're right.

This is how I usually think ofi t.

Spear>All Calv.
Sword>Spear
Mace/axe>High armor units.
Missles>Light armor, stationary units.
Light Cavalry>Missles.
Heavy Cavalry>Tightly packed, tired infantry from the back.
Slingers>Heavy armor, stationary units.
Artillery=Quintessential glass cannon.
Elephants>EVERYTHING...if used properly.

I'm not entirely sure of how the mechanics work, but that's how it seems in gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Olaf The Great

Well you really can't compare cavalry lances with Infantry spears, as they don't have the anti-calv trait, spear trait, and are armor piercing. I

But you're right.

This is how I usually think ofi t.

Spear>All Calv.
Sword>Spear
Mace/axe>High armor units.
Missles>Light armor, stationary units.
Light Cavalry>Missles.
Heavy Cavalry>Tightly packed, tired infantry from the back.
Slingers>Heavy armor, stationary units.
Artillery=Quintessential glass cannon.
Elephants>EVERYTHING...if used properly.

I'm not entirely sure of how the mechanics work, but that's how it seems in gameplay.

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I am all about lethality when it comes to melee weapons. If it's a medium or heavy infantry and uses a mace, axe, or rhompharoi, I want it! I settle for spear units when I can't get one of those 3, or if they are archer-spearmen, which i absolutely LOVE.


P.S. Isn't is the Eastern General/Kinsmen cavalry that use the mace as their melee weapon? Those guys are the all time best, a real joy to use in battle.