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Hi!
Can anyone tell me the historical source for Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi? Any other greek infantry types in parthian army? And what about cavalry?
I asked in VV on twcenter but nobody can answer... and I can't find other details on internet either :help::book:
A major source is the large quantity figurines of thureophoroi that have been found from the Parthian levels of Seleucia on the Tigris and Babylon. A few other troop types are represented in the figurines found in the Parthian strata at these sites, but their ethnicity is ambiguous (as in the horsemen figurines wearing vaguely oriental clothing but carrying aspides).
Thanks! Can you tell me more about the unit types they have there? :2thumbsup::yes:
unit types? the figurines show soldiers who like thureophoroi. the thureos was rather widely adopted in the hellenistic period, and while greeks wielding them seem to have fought in parthian armies, other non-greeks likely wielded that particular shield as well. the other "unit type" meinpanzer has noted is a shielded cavalryman with bits of Greek and eastern influences evident in his dress and equipment.
Ummm... any on-line pics for them? :laugh4:
Indeed, many of the thureophoroi figurines wear costume that is ethnically ambiguous. Some wear what are clearly Greek-style tunics, but others wear strange, "ragged" double-belted tunics (or kilts? It's hard to tell), while some have also been found that wear trousers and long-sleeved tunics. These figurines are often headless, and so their identities remain mysterious.Quote:
Originally Posted by paullus
The only other troop types found are a single figurine that seems to show a cataphract and several very crude figurines which may depict hoplitai/peltastai/phalangitai from Seleucia. A headless figurine of a camel rider carrying an aspis and a sword has also been found, though it's crude and difficult to interpret.
Would these units be included in EBII ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MeinPanzer
They are all covered, as far as I can tell. Interpreting some of these figurines can be difficult given their crudity, though, so some could be covered by any number of units.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralAppo
Thureophoroi figurines - Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi (though these figurines do not wear cuirasses)
Hoplitai/peltastai/phalangitai figurines - Pantodapoi Phalangitai, Kardaka Arteshtar
Cataphract figurine - Parthian Noble Cataphracts, Parthian Cataphracts
Oriental horsemen figurines - I can't remember if the current version of EB includes an oriental Tarentine cavalryman unit. If not, this would best be represented by one in EBII, or you could just call these a variant of the Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry.
Is there direct written evidence of the Pahlava using phalangites in their army?
I don't think so, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kongeslask
I have been terribly busy, so a response to the thread could not be mounted earlier. My apologies.
Our basis to using a Hellenistic unit exclusively to the Arsacids is simple; not only was the effective "de-Hellenization" of the Greater Iran a later process (Which took place first during the rule of Vologases I), as indicated by a more "home-grown" minting technique giving the ruler a more Persepolitan profile, but also by later Sassanian and Medieval Zoroastrian legends recalling the codification of the Avestâ taking place during his rule (51-78 CE). In comparison to previous Arsacid sovereigns he appears to be of profoundly "Oriental" character, once even narrated to have been mounted upon an elephant before the Romans in a triumph. This is obviously outside the frame of time, so some information can be mined out from the historical rift between rulers; in fact as far as the rule of Orodes II, there is still a Graeco-Seleucian senate recorded in Plutarch's biography of Crassus, and the nature of this senate of course differs too much from the so-called "Council of Clans" to ever have been confused. So even as far as 50 BCE we have a secure attestation of profound Graeco-Macedonian political influence in especially Mesopotamia even thought the power must rather have been divided accordingly per city.
So, how does this aid our projection of a Hellenistic-style thureos infantry? Well, it gives us a couple of parameters to keep ourselves within. The Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi draw inspiration from two sources, one which appears to keep within "Hellenistic tradition" (Classically Hellenistic-styled helmets, linothorakes, pteryges et al.) and the other which introduces Aramaean character in the attire. I am partially speaking of a trend which survived far into the Trajanid age (Which can be indicated in the "Parthia Capta" coins of emperor Trajan) and partially of the facsimile at Dura-Europos showing armoured infantry with coifs of maille. The only slight anomaly in the unholy union between the two types is the armour, which is padded leather, reasoned to have been more apt in the Mesopotamian heat and less susceptible to organic rot; originally I personally wanted to go with a linothorax or alternatively a scale corselet. The ethnicity has deliberately been left ambiguous therefore. He could be a Greek-speaking foreigner, maybe an Armenian, maybe an Aramaïc-speaking local, or perhaps even an Iranian. The shield bears a Clan-insignia implying that the infantry is bandakâ/bandegân (Bondsman) and therefore serves under a noble. This is due to change and an intellectual admission must be made; infantry were reared in the cities and in the proper satrapies, whereas the clans dominated more in eastern and northern Iran.
As for "Parthian phalangites", there is evidence for them, but curiously after a time of inactivity I have forgotten where the information is localized; the so-called "all-cavalry" doctrine of the Parthians is far from definite and in one instance we do know that Phraates II used Greek soldiery, who notoriously turned over him to the Tocharii who smote him (Apparently, there was a reason; even the Persians of Persis proper and Kamnaskirids of Elymaïs initially thought of the Arsacidae to have been a cruel lot). I recall that this statement has circulated around the Internet, claiming that in one instance Parthian phalangites matched the spears of the Seleucids. If true, it is not indicative to Parthian infantry. These may have been mercenaries.
MeinPanzer mentions the Oriental-looking cavalry of the Tarentine or Prodromoi type; I think he means the numerous Palmyran reliefs showing Parthian-style cavalry dressed in elaborate flowing robes and mantles, brandishing enigmatic hair-styles. Such as this one:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
These are the effective continuation of the classical Persepolitan-style Parthian dress (There is an Arsacid-era equestrian bas-relief matching the Parthava dignitaries here; compare to Persepolitan dignitaries).
The Cardaces are a declining form of late Achaemenid-style infantry who were added simply on the basis of Strabo's passage, implying local longevity in areas which did rear quite strong foot-warrior traditions (Persis proper).From the late Arsacid to early Sassanian era, most of that tradition would be lent from Graeco-Roman foundations.
PC, I've heard people say that Phraates used surrendered Seleukid soldiers in his campaign against the Tocharians, but 1) I've never seen the primary source passage corroborating the story, and 2) by that date the Seleukid soldiers would likely have been mainly soldiers armed as thureophoroi/thorakitai.
ps--I think the cavalry MP referenced are figurines not reliefs, though that is a nice sketch of one.
I recall this being in Justin's Historiarum Philippicarum vol. XLI as most narrations of the early Parthian history find their most refined recension from there.
http://www.forumromanum.org/literatu...h/trans42.htmlQuote:
AFTER the death of Mithridates, king of the Parthians, Phraates his son was made king, who, having proceeded to make war upon Syria, in revenge for the attempts of Antiochus on the Parthian dominions, was recalled, by hostilities on the part of the Scythians, to defend his own country. For the Scythians, having been induced, by the offer of pay, to assist the Parthians against, Antiochus king of Syria, and not having arrived till the war was ended, were disappointed of the expected remuneration, and reproached with having brought their aid too late; and when, in discontent at having made so long a march in vain, they demanded that “either some recompence for their trouble, or another enemy to attack, should be assigned them,” being offended at the haughty reply which they received, they began to ravage the country of the Parthians. Phraates, in consequence, marching against them, left a certain Himerus, who had gained his favours in the bloom of youth, to take care of his kingdom. But Himerus, unmindful both of his past life, and of the duty with which he was entrusted, miserably harassed the people of Babylon, and many other cities, with tyrannical cruelties. Phraates himself, meanwhile, took with him to the war a body of Greeks, who had been made prisoners in the war against Antiochus, and whom he had treated with great pride and severity, not reflecting that captivity had not lessened their hostile feelings, and that the indignity of the outrages which they had suffered must have exasperated them. As soon therefore as they saw the Persians giving ground, they went over to the enemy, and executed that revenge for their captivity, which they had long desired, by a sanguinary destruction of the Parthian army and of king Phraates himself.
There are also a few obscure passages from Posidonius corroborating the narration of Phraates burying the Seleucid king, Antiochus VII Sidetes, which we find here.
I will have to look harder as far as "Parthian phalangites" are concerned; I have seen this one floating around for some time, and the phrase "matching length of spears" is especially peculiar.
As Paullus wrote, I was referring to those handful of figurines from Selecia in reference to the oriental Tarentines, as well as the hypothesis made by Bar-Kochva and others that the Tarentines mentioned in later Seleucid sources were almost certainly orientals trained in the Tarentine mode of fighting.
I, too, have heard the mention of Parthian phalangites, but I've never seen any actual evidence turn up to support that claim. As with so many things on the internet, I think it could just be speculation run amok and transformed into fact.