Defeating HA Armies - Without your own HAs?

I have a few questions for you tactical experts regarding countering HA armies.
Obviously the best way to defeat them is with Horse Archers of your own. Sometimes this isn't possible - when I encounter a HA army without HA of my own, I get massacred.

I've read the cavalry guide, and the mounted cavalry guide, so I understand the importance of not chasing, of getting high ground, of armored units, and of having your own archers. Obviously, if I can't do some or most of these things, then in no way should I be fighting HA-heavy factions anyway!

I've done a test and discovered that a defensive Phalanx box is still incredibly vulnerable. The AI just got close enough to shoot the phalanxes on the opposite side of the box - which while an impressive feat for the AI meant that the box is sort of useless.

If I have a bunch of archers in the box, they just get massacred by the veritable RAIN of arrows. Even though I outnumber them, HAs can fire while on the move and really my troops up.

Having them run out of ammo isn't helpful, because by the time they do my troops are severely demoralized and will rout when the charge me.

I've thought up a new idea, though I have yet to try it - in the steppes, the land is usually flat and relatively tree-less. So I wonder if a long, thin phalanx, that covers the width of the battlefield will be effective. Essentially I march and constrict them to a smaller and smaller portion of the battlefield.

I just tested it - it works, but there are obvious, serious flaws. Firstly, if the enemy has reinforcements behind you, you are going to get shot in the back, period. Secondly, it is a slow moving line that can be rolled up and demolished if you are not very careful. Thirdly, it will be expensive to recruit and more expensive to engage effectively. Fourthly, any terrain other than a pretty flat, unforested plain is a set up for a massacre of your own troops. So I don't think its an effective strategy, because those steppe armies can MOVE on the strategic map and you will get demolished. So this idea is a recipe for disaster.

Also, how do you best kill armored HAs?

On a related note, how well do units in a testudo formation fair against a shock cavalry charge?

When I was fighting the Sarmations as Koinon Hellenon I found the use of Haploi combined with medium cavalry (specifically nomad mercenary general) was pretty effective. The haploi only lose at most a third of their men from the arrows and can then slaughter any Sarmation cavalry unit except for bodyguards without losing more than half their men, once they corner them. I like to have the nomad general following the strongest fleeing enemy cavalry and firing arrows at it as it goes.

Of course, this works best if you have one haploi per enemy horse archer, so for the larger armies this tactic fails.

If you know the enemy outnumber you in horse archers the solution is easy:

- Don't march your army into the steppe.
- Stick to the forests.

Phalangites with phalanx mode on are damn resistant to arrows (from the front at least), even when not in a forest. A nice trick to play on the AI is to keep your own archers hidden until the enemy runs out of arrows. :yes:

Or if you must venture into the steppe you can use the stupidity of the AI to work for you (EXPLOIT).
1. Trick the AI into taking a fort
2. Besiege the fort, preferably pop a spy or two in there first so you can attack instantly.
3. If the spies don't open the doors for you, pray the enemy doesn't sally because if they do you might be f****d.
4. Attack. Normally the idiot AI just stays inside the fort unless you use ranged weapons on them, so let your phalanxes absorb the enemy's arrows until they run out of them and then move in for the kill.

if you defend a fort or something use normal archer some long range preferably and then let some heavy armoured phalangite or something absorb the arrows..

I've always hated fighting them with a phalanx heavy army. Especially early game for the Seleucids. I find that you can't effectively win a battle against a horse archer army unless you outnumber them significantly with Archers. 6 or 7 units of Thanvare Payadag (persian Archers) along with a line of Pantodapoi Phalagitai and one or two units of light or Medium cavalry work well against any horse archer army. Disable fire at will and concentrate all your units fire on one unit of theirs. Two or three volleys and they are reduced to nothing, repeat for every unit that comes in range. I find that the Thanvare have a better range than the Horse Archers so you can destroy them with minimal losses. Creep your phalanx forward and keep pushing them to the edge of the battlefield. Then once they are effectively reduced to nothing send in the Cavalry to finish them off.

I've always used classical hoplites in my steppe armies when playing as any non-nomad faction. They have enough armor to soak up arrows without too many losses and are far more mobile than a phalanx. I always try to back these up with scythian archers or bosphoran archers (most of my steppe adventures take place around the black sea, so I usually have access to these). You would also be surprised how many trees you can find on the steppe, though you may have to deliberately seek them out as you move on the stratmap. If you're way out east you can use the subeshi archers which slightly outrange most HAs and persian archer-spearmen.

TM

You know how groups of dolphins hunt? Replace dolphins with capable Light-Medium cavalry... And some heavy/general ones for the final punch.

Prodromoi are an excellent choice for catching the HAs :yes:

Even some special heavy cavalry (cough Molosson Agema cough) can catch them

but I find the best thing to fight HAs with is HAs, preferable heavier ones

foot archers are good, but do need support or they will be crushed by a nomad general or HC unit

Line up your phalanxes with their backs turned right up against the red battle map border! An exploit really, but so is the phalanx box in a certain sense. The phalanx units also have the highest shield value of any EB unit - 5. I have found that it is almost impossible to inflict more than three missile (using bows & arrows) casualties to even an inferior phalanx such as Machimoi or Pantodapoi because of that ridiculously high shield value.

I found that the worst thing for HA are well armoured troops, such as Romans or whatever you have got for your faction. Set them up in a square so that you don't present un-shielded targets, and the arrows will only do little damage.

To conter Sarmatian heavies and the like, foot archers are not the best choice: use slingers instead, lots of them with decent experince at best. Always turn off skirmish mode, because when facing cavalry it is: who runs dies.

Always try to keep the higher ground. Here even javelin units can be usefull because they are able to get in range without causing the HAs to run away on skirmish mode.

When trying to hunt them down you always need superior numbers (or far better cavalry) because you have to take into account several casualties before you can catch up with them.

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Original: Aemilius Paulus
The phalanx units also have the highest shield value of any EB unit - 5.

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Don't many hoplites have 6 Shield?

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Originally Posted by desert

Don't many hoplites have 6 Shield?

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Nope, the hoplites almost always have 4 Shield. I have just checked EDU (export_desc_units) to be sure. I really don't know why the EB team gave the phalangites such high shield values. After all, their shields are much smaller than the Roman legionary, Hastati/Principes/Triarii, or the hoplites for that matter. Maybe they counted the 90 and 45 degree pikes of the middle ranks as a missile shield, but that would not protect the front ranks.

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The phalangites have 5 shield, but all those hoplites have 6.

What the... What version of EB are you playing anyway?!? I just started EB, checked the unit stats and all of the Koinon Hellenon hoplites have only 4 shield. I also checked the EDU again and it said the same thing!!!

BTW, I don't remember seeing the "Bonus fighting cavalry" on my hoplites either.

What is wrong with me?!?!?!?

Ah, of course! Ze anzer iz zo obviouz!

I got the EB Mod Pack, which includes TWFanatic's Phalanx/... mod. That probably explains the discrepancies. Although I could have sworn that the only change the Phalanx Mod makes is to increase charge bonus. Guess I was wrong.

no, it doesn't necessarily say that. however, (spear) confers a bonus v. cavalry

How to destroy HA's huh? well if they're armoured HA's, forget trying to outshoot them, you'll need medium cavalry. Or Rhodian/Balearic Slingers, but then you'll take heavy casualties... but then again, so will you with the medium cavalry). If not, armies of well-armoured archers that can still hold their own in melee, backed up by several units of decent spearmen, will butcher HA's. Take Cretan Archers and Thureophoroi for instance. The Thureophoroi can shower any charging unit in a hail of javelins which will wither down what the archers haven't had time to kill, or decimate what they have had time to kill, and they can then engage in melee.

Basically, in order to beat HA's you have to beat them at their own game, using different units. Well-armoured archers in loose formation take out HA's, well-armoured spearmen in a narrow, deep formation take out close combat cavalry. It's a case of either obliterating them or getting obliterated, close battles with HA's should be rather rare.