What's the economics of keeping Public Order in cities?

I'm new to M2TW and have three questions re: keeping order in cities...


I remember that in the first MTW, the best "police" force to keep order in one's cities was peasants, because it was only based on "warm body count"... therefore, get the cheapest maintenance bodies, namely, peasants. So,

1) Are peasants still the best buy for keeping order? A little testing shows that town militia might be better for the maintenance buck - but there's a lot going on in M2TW that I might not understand.


Also I see the various types of Public Order imposed by buildings in cities. Some of them look really bad, like a small church costs 800 and give 5% order - but so does a regular church, just 5%, which means it adds nothing to Order, right? While costing twice as much. Yeah it gives double the conversion, but priests are a lot cheaper, and mobile even. So,

2) Am I understanding how Order works correctly? Buildings in a particular "line" (per the Building Browser) do not ADD the bonus on their infocard TO the order from the previous building in the line - it's actually simply the flat bonus at that level (not the net bonus) shown on the infocard. Right?


And now, to draw both issues together...

At what point are buildings better than e.g. just making more peasants to keep order? My impression is that peasants can add 5-10% Order, and cost 90/turn... the smallest building (Town Watch, Small Church, Brothel) costs 600 to 800 and give 5% order. *IF* one were to presume that peasants give 5% order and cost 90/turn, then a Church "pays for itself" on its seventh turn (600/90=6.67). Is this making sense at all? If it is, though, and I understand question #2 correctly, only some of the very cheapest Order buildings make clear sense.

Anyway,

3) How does one decide between more police (peasants or whatever) versus more expensive public order buildings? What's the economics of it?


I have looked around and have not been able to find any comprehensive FAQs on M2TW economics like this. I have found a FAQ that was in "Q&A" form, but that was all. If there are comprehensive FAQs, please let me know!

Thanks in advance!

RK

P.S. This is with vanilla original M2TW version 1.2

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1) Are peasants still the best buy for keeping order? A little testing shows that town militia might be better for the maintenance buck - but there's a lot going on in M2TW that I might not understand.

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Militia are better because of free upkeep. Peasants only count 50 percent of normal units when maintaining public order.

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2) Am I understanding how Order works correctly? Buildings in a particular "line" (per the Building Browser) do not ADD the bonus on their infocard TO the order from the previous building in the line - it's actually simply the flat bonus at that level (not the net bonus) shown on the infocard. Right?

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Right.

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3) How does one decide between more police (peasants or whatever) versus more expensive public order buildings? What's the economics of it?

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See answer 1. Use militia units, they are free in cities. You can see if a militia units are free when their unit cards are darker blue.

In general you can maintain PO by building certain buildings like: town hall, Church, brothel, barrack and city wall. Some only give PO bonus but a church suppresses a different religion which can cause a lower PO.
You can add the buildings by some units and a good governor. The last I find a risk because if he dies you will have a PO problem.

Thanks Monsieur, this is really helpful... I never knew what the Blue color meant (and still can't find it in the manual! ... but I see it on the infocards now)

It looks like Spear Militia are much better than Town Militia... they only cost a little more initially, and then the same in maintenance... but can be much better in a fight, especially against cavalry.

But wait... am I seeing this right... only cities that can make Spear Militia, can use them as free garrisons? (If a town can only make Town Militia, only those will can be free upkeep, even if you have Spear Militia there... unless and until you make a Town Guard and can recruit Spear Militia there?)

Thanks again!! - RK

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

Thanks Monsieur, this is really helpful... I never knew what the Blue color meant (and still can't find it in the manual! ... but I see it on the infocards now)

It looks like Spear Militia are much better than Town Militia... they only cost a little more initially, and then the same in maintenance... but can be much better in a fight, especially against cavalry.

But wait... am I seeing this right... only cities that can make Spear Militia, can use them as free garrisons? (If a town can only make Town Militia, only those will can be free upkeep, even if you have Spear Militia there... unless and until you make a Town Guard and can recruit Spear Militia there?)

Thanks again!! - RK

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Any militia unit can fill the free upkeep slots, it doesnt matter if the town is developed enough to build the unit yet. Spear or pike militia seem to be the best choices for police duty given their unit size and combat ability.

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Originally Posted by Zaleukos

Any militia unit can fill the free upkeep slots, it doesnt matter if the town is developed enough to build the unit yet. Spear or pike militia seem to be the best choices for police duty given their unit size and combat ability.

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that's not right. RedKnight was right in the previous post.

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Originally Posted by Jason X

that's not right. RedKnight was right in the previous post.

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Are you sure about that? I'm fairly certain I've gotten free upkeep for heavy pike militia in undeveloped towns as Scotland. Not that the situation is very common as police units are likely to be built in the town they are policing...:)

EDIT: I looked it up and you are in deed right (the crossbow militia France starts with in vanilla has to pay upkeep in Paris no matter what). My assumption that the game only checks the "free upkeep" attribute of the units was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Zaleukos

Are you sure about that? I'm fairly certain I've gotten free upkeep for heavy pike militia in undeveloped towns as Scotland. Not that the situation is very common as police units are likely to be built in the town they are policing...:)

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i'm sure, yes. at least in vanilla, lite mod and vanilla mod.

Unfortunately, it goes beyond the simple $800/5% relationship, since you can only buy one small church per city. The more advanced buildings become economically viable much more in late game, when your city gets large and you have to overcome increasing squalor in your cities, as well as keep a nice high tax rate to take advantage of the trade.

The garrison option works really well for England/Scotland, but on my current Egypt campaign, there are no free garrisoned units.

I find that generally after the free militia slots are used, it's better to build buildings, since they don't have upkeep costs like units. Once cities get large they require huge numbers of units to keep order, and it does not seem to be economically feasible - not to mention eventually a battle you can't win if the palce has 30k+ pop. Better to build buildings, which, though very expensive later on, are better than paying for a whole garrison's upkeep. In the huge cities I like having high dread generals and as much tax as possible, and in smaller ones I try and have chivalrous govenors to grow them.

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Originally Posted by Marauder

The garrison option works really well for England/Scotland, but on my current Egypt campaign, there are no free garrisoned units.

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eh? you get loads of militia units as egypt, including the wonderful saracen militia! also halberd militia?

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Originally Posted by Jason X

eh? you get loads of militia units as egypt, including the wonderful saracen militia! also halberd militia?

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The militia units are incredible, I use them almost exclusively for infantry, but they don't seem to get the free upkeep in cities/castles. I'm playing unmodded vanilla 1.2, maybe a switch to 1.3 would fix that, or I just go to the trouble of downloading one of the good mods out there...

I'm using vanilla original 1.2.

Marauder, you only get free units in cities, not in castles (right click on the icon for your city/castle in the Buildings list; it tells you how many you get - or not). That's the bad news. The good news is that castles never need anything but one unit to stay peachy, at least so far in my games (I've only played about 50 turns into a campaign so far).

I restarted a game now that I understand free units correctly - and am finding that after about turn 20 - after I have been able to get Town Watches or Guards, and corresponding militia (Town Militia or Spear Militia) spread around, suddenly I start having plenty of extra gold each turn. Previously when I was spamming peasants all over (which was a lot of hard work!), it seemed like I was always just barely having enough money each turn. Now I know why. :book:

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Also I see the various types of Public Order imposed by buildings in cities. Some of them look really bad, like a small church costs 800 and give 5% order - but so does a regular church, just 5%, which means it adds nothing to Order, right? While costing twice as much. Yeah it gives double the conversion, but priests are a lot cheaper, and mobile even. So,

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Churches are important structures. They not only increase happiness, but also:


a) Convert settlements, which also raises happiness
b) Allow the construction of more priests
c) Will raise the piety of your geneal, if he is in the city or castle when the church is built. Priests also do this as well. Piety is the trait that affects a general's ability to raise income while in cities and castles.
d) Will allow you to build bishops at higher level buildings.
e) Will allow the theological guild series.

And without churches and the priests they allow, how are you going to control the Papacy? :angel:



To gain the troop type as a free unit, you have to be able to build that type of unit in that particular city. This includes not only the basic militia, but also specialty units. One of the few benifits of Merchant Calvary is that they have free upkeep in cities where they can be built. I'm not sure if it applies to all units that can be built in the city, though.