Javelins question

After playing both EB and Stainless Steel I've noticed that a lot of ancient infantry units were using javelins to soften their opponent before the charge. But I don't remember any medieval units using the same tactics (well, may be there were a couple of Byzantine units, but the vast majority didn't use javelins). The question is - why this tactics was abandoned in the medieval times. The only explanation I can come up with right now (and of course it's just speculation not backed with any sources or evidence) is that crossbows made javelins obsolete. Crossbow had great range, good armor piercing capability and was easy to use. But on the other hand, crossbow required a dedicated unit, while javelins could be used by any infantryman.

warfare changed during the time

no longer were armies proffesionally made with simple units and standards
but now its a bunch of peasents trained into soldiers by their lords who owned fiefs of lands or loyal to a certain leader. These men would have had huge treasuries from loots, campaigns, or taxing their lands and certainlly would want to appear stronger and richer than his rivals by having his soldiers well armed and armored...

by this time, if im not mistaken, armor was in fact widespread and javelins were not used as much as before due to the fact that he could be struck down by a crossbow quickly and it prolly wouldnt pennetrate the armor of the knights etc..

Javelins were effectively replaced by the crossbow in the west due to the crossbow's far superior range and the simplicity of its use. However, the Almughavares of Spain were famous for their use of the javelin, and these developed out of long Middle Eastern traditions that continued throughout the Middle Ages. I also think the Byzantines retained javelins among some of their units. In general, javelins were outmoded in the West but the Byzantines and their Middle Eastern rivals used them because they didn't use the crossbow there.

well, I think by the time of the Middle Ages the javelin had become outdated and obsolete. Sort of like how the sarissa phalanx replaced the classical hoplites. But the main reason is that the times changed, armies just didn't use it that much anymore for the same reason they didn't wear muscle cuiarss and crested helmets. That is my opinion.

I think in "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" by Gibbon, it's mentioned that the Goths thought the Roman pilum was something of a joke. Maybe it was an attitude like this that was spread over the remains of the empire by its conquerors that lead to the end of the javelin/pilum's use in the west.

Still, why peasant didnt carry javelins? Even with wood points they could be of some use against other light/poor infantry (in the early middle ages). Its better than nothing.

Javelins continued to be used in a few parts of Europe in the middle ages. They were not replaced with bows/crossbows as such but by the increase in numbers and skill of the calvary they had to face meant that Javelin throwing had become more risky. Only in those areas were heavy calvary were limited and less effective, such as mountains (Iberia) or forest (Ireland) did Javelin use continue in any real numbers. In a few parts of Ireland they were used until the beginning of the 17th century.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HasdrubalBarca

the Goths thought the Roman pilum was something of a joke.

---

I'm 100% sure they modified their opinion after having their infantry charges devastated and skewered by pila and plumba. I remember reading the ancient accounts of historians and generals describing what the pila did to the enemy, and it was pretty bad. The nations that had experience fighting with Romans always tried to stay out of the pilum range and when it came time to attack, the approached the Roman lines slowly and when in pilum range, they attempted to reach the Roman lines as fast as they could.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praetor Diego

Still, why peasant didnt carry javelins? Even with wood points they could be of some use against other light/poor infantry (in the early middle ages). Its better than nothing.

---

That's indeed the question. Why militias didn't use javelins as it still would be effective against other militias and probably light cavalry. Those units were the majority of early medieval army. The percentage of knights and professional soldiers was rather small. So javelins still would be effective against like 90 percent of the enemy army. I didn't do any research, but I think that even against early knight armor (and in IX-XIII centuries we are still talking about same old mail armor) the javelin would still be deadly. Of course against later medieval armor javelins would be nearly useless.

I thought Taliferno's post was an excellent analysis of at least one angle on this subject.

Another reason is that, just like slingers and archers, javelineers require either training or life experience using it for something practical. This means that missile weapon armed light infantry tended to exist in areas where the peasant classes used those particular types of weapons. So as areas under Roman rule became demiliterized, the peasant class stopped using these kind of weapons. The old Hellenic, Iberian, Celtic and Italic traditions of lower class warriors using javelins started to disappear. Also, as Taliferno suggested, the rise of cavalry in general and heavy cavalry in particular caused the javelin thrower's career on the battlefield to become much too dangerous.

However, another factor is that the javelin was used for much longer than commonly believed. As has been said, Muslim Andulasia and free Eire used javelins up to the end of the Medieval period. Even in England up to the Norman invasion in 1066 and the introduction of the Norman style cavalry, knights would use javelins along with their lance. So javelins really didn't just vanish with the fall of the Roman empire.

There are several more reasons, but I need to go eat lunch. Food for thought.

Chairman

I've read that javelin skirmishing was ineffective in killing people and skirmishers could dodge them. It's like a really dangerous form of dodgeball. Also, you don't need skill to throw a javelin. That's why they were so common. City-folk don't do much hunting or shepherding to use a bow or a sling.

Javelins may not have killed many, but try maneuvering a shield in close combat with two javelins sticking into it.

From several directions, overall, this may have something to do with the size of armies commented to deceive engagements.

However, on the other hand, we do have those skipping kerns that trust their heels.


CmacQ