Eye for an Eye - A discussion

This article made me think. The moral argument that I would pose is

'A society that reacts to unjust behaviour in such a matter by definition makes people react to perceived injustice with vengeful cruelty'

In simpler English. If a society promotes eye for an eye tactics, it makes its own people act cruel. When that man suffered 'injustice' (As he saw it, being forever denied) he decided to react by forever denying the victim her looks. I think that it is a vicious circle that plunges societies to cruelty and does not really stop the crime.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Court orders Iranian man blinded
Iran map

A court in Iran has ruled that a man who blinded a woman with acid after she spurned his marriage proposals will also be blinded with acid.

The ruling was reported in Iranian newspapers on Thursday.

The punishment is legal under the Islamic Sharia code of qias or equivalence, which allows retribution for violent crimes.

The court also ordered the attacker, 27-year-old Majid Movahedi, to pay compensation to the victim.

The acid attack took place in 2004. The victim, Ameneh Bahrami, went to Spain for surgery to reconstruct her face but efforts to restore her sight failed.

The ruling was a response to her plea to the court in the Iranian capital Tehran for retribution.

"Ever since I was subject to acid being thrown on my face, I have a constant feeling of being in danger," she told the court.

Ms Bahrami also said that Movahedi had also threatened to kill her

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7754756.stm

So it is literally an eye for and eye.

In an eye for an eye atmosphere it should, in theory act like a mutual assured destruction situation discouraging anyone from harming anyone but in reality I don’t think it would work any better than the archaic system that already exists in a third of the world.

Crime and punishment are difficult things to understand when you take time to review the circumstances.

i personally would slowly strangle to death any man who intentionally threw acid in the face of a women for reasons of culture.

which i guess is my way of saying - go iran!

I can't imagine what he has done to that poor woman's life, if i was her i would probably want his eyes burned out by acid also, but i don't think society should carry out such cruel or unusual punishments... even if it does have a kind of fairness to it.... imo prison (fines and community service as well but not for serious crimes) should be the only punishment the goverment can give people....

I would agree with your statement that it makes society's more cruel, not by a huge amount, but im sure it would validate that kind of revenge in the eyes of some citizens, i don't think a society should work on an eye for an eye basis, society shouldn't be about revenge....

'an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' etc is probably one of the few parts of the bible i agree with in entirety only i think it should be an 'eye for two eyes' a criminal should get what he did as a crime and more as a punishment

if laws were incredably hard on those that commit serious crimes, you mark my words, crimes and murders would plummet, and i dont necessarily blame police, they do there jobs, however it's the government and the courts that allow the criminal to get very little punishment for his/hers acts

The UK system works... :inquisitive:

Link

Clearly people feel that the court punishment - if ever meted out - isn't good enough. If law isn't believed in, one of the planks of society is rotten.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The UK system works... :inquisitive:

Link

Clearly people feel that the court punishment - if ever meted out - isn't good enough. If law isn't believed in, one of the planks of society is rotten.

~:smoking:

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i see that link also tells us how other crimes gone up instead and yes by courts i ment sentence lengths and yes this 'plank of society' is rotten, law is only belived in to a certain extent here, to me it's more a circus, wouldnt, havent you heard stories of late where various people have been allowed out of jail after murder because they dont have enough room to fit them in, disgusting, there just as likely to re offend, trash like that should be put to sleep and killed like a dog

... Makes the whole world blind.

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... Makes the whole world blind.

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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king

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And Triffids.:skull:

“if laws were incredibly hard on those that commit serious crimes, you mark my words, crimes and murders would plummet,”: as proved during the Middle Ages when Crimes rates was so low. Oops, no.
You have to know one or two things: Punishment is not a deterrent, and never was.
Two main reasons:
I planned to commit a crime, so I planned to fool the police and to escape from the punishment. Nobody knowing he will be caught commit a crime or offence. If you over speed it is because you think there are no speed camera at this spot, or no police officer.
A crime committed under influence, hunger or other strong feelings are not under hard penalties.

To make things simple:
To kill your wife and her lover you find in bed is not a cold blood murder.You would kill then without thinking of the consequences, so hard punishment prospects didn’t stop you in doing it.
If you plan to kill my wife and her lover later on, you will produce/imagine a plan to avoid to be caught. And you think you will be better than the Police.

The majority of serious crime is highly motivated so punishments aren't too much of a deterrent, the majority of criminals think they will not get caught anyway, the only place a majorly harsh penalty would work are petty crimes where there isn't much motivation... but in that case the penalty would be far too harsh to fit the crime...

So very harsh sentencing won't make much difference...

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Originally Posted by Aries777777

'an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' etc is probably one of the few parts of the bible i agree with in entirety only i think it should be an 'eye for two eyes' a criminal should get what he did as a crime and more as a punishment

if laws were incredably hard on those that commit serious crimes, you mark my words, crimes and murders would plummet, and i dont necessarily blame police, they do there jobs, however it's the government and the courts that allow the criminal to get very little punishment for his/hers acts

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FYI, incredably hard laws on those that commit serious crimes does not cause crimes and murders to plummet. The percieved risk of getting cought does on the other hand.

Edit: Bah, too late.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“if laws were incredibly hard on those that commit serious crimes, you mark my words, crimes and murders would plummet,”: as proved during the Middle Ages when Crimes rates was so low. Oops, no.

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were not living in the middle ages, times move on, when people know theres such a large punishment for serious crimes, there are those that would think twice before offending, unless there just true nutcases, we have media and the like now, these changes in law wouldnt be as well known in the middle ages aswell as behavioral changes as a whole in society

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Originally Posted by The_Doctor

And Triffids.:skull:

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Bit of salt water and they're sent off. Not much of a problem really.

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Originally Posted by Aries777777

were not living in the middle ages, times move on, when people know theres such a large punishment for serious crimes, there are those that would think twice before offending, unless there just true nutcases, we have media and the like now, these changes in law wouldnt be as well known in the middle ages aswell as behavioral changes as a whole in society

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So public excutions didn't work then, but drawing and quatering will stop crime now because we have T.V.'s? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Lord Winter

So public excutions didn't work then, but drawing and quatering will stop crime now because we have T.V.'s? :inquisitive:

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not at all, radios too :laugh4: i also said mind sets, people in the middle ages didnt give a toss, and were often doing crimes because they were in poverty, and figures of crimes from so far back can't be completely accurate at any rate

Eye for an eye types of ideology just lead to an endless spiral of violence, unless one side so terribly cripples the other that it cannot strike back. What started as racial struggles in the civil rights movement became "we must avenge our injustices", which led to "we must avenge our neighbors who were unduly assaulted by those blacks", until MLK and peaceful resistance ideology took prominence. What started as religious struggles in the Holy Land has become a struggle of "they're taking our land, we must strike back!" and "they attacked us, we must strike back!"

Only through peace can society truly advance.

then its preventions better than cure

Even though I don't know how killing people violently is the best form of pervention.

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Originally Posted by Aries777777

not at all, radios too :laugh4: i also said mind sets, people in the middle ages didnt give a toss, and were often doing crimes because they were in poverty, and figures of crimes from so far back can't be completely accurate at any rate

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Just so you know, the big reduction in both the amount of crimes and the punishments were during the nineteenth century, hardly the middle ages is it? But it has also been proven with multiple studies later on.

Sharia ain't that bad after all, go Iran.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Just so you know, the big reduction in both the amount of crimes and the punishments were during the nineteenth century, hardly the middle ages is it? But it has also been proven with multiple studies later on.

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Causation or correlation?

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Lord Winter

Even though I don't know how killing people violently is the best form of pervention.

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no we prevent that by coficating all weapons in the world including kitchen knifes and heavy objects :yes:

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Originally Posted by Aries777777

no we prevent that by coficating all weapons in the world including kitchen knifes and heavy objects :yes:

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And scissors, pens, and everything made of glass? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Causation or correlation?

~:smoking:

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Rather lack of correlation. I might've formulated myself badly, the later studies have only shown that heavier punishments doesn't have an effective value as a deterent (or the opposite), making the big shift on cirme and punishment a correlation. Other factors, like social status, risk of getting caught, have a much larger influence on crime.

I just read this article [WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGE] and it made me rethink my position.

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Originally Posted by Nicholas D. Kristof

Terrorism in this part of the world usually means bombs exploding or hotels burning, as the latest horrific scenes from Mumbai attest. Yet alongside the brutal public terrorism that fills the television screens, there is an equally cruel form of terrorism that gets almost no attention and thrives as a result: flinging acid on a woman’s face to leave her hideously deformed.

Here in Pakistan, I’ve been investigating such acid attacks, which are commonly used to terrorize and subjugate women and girls in a swath of Asia from Afghanistan through Cambodia (men are almost never attacked with acid). Because women usually don’t matter in this part of the world, their attackers are rarely prosecuted and acid sales are usually not controlled. It’s a kind of terrorism that becomes accepted as part of the background noise in the region.

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Pouring acid on the son-of-a-bitch's face isn't enough.

This sort of abominable attack happens because there is not enough 'eye for an eye' justice.

If every single one of those sub-human beasts who attacked a woman in this way knew, knew with complete certainty in their hearts that they would get it even worse, trust me, there would be much, much less of this.

That article has made me angrier than most any other thing I've read. I want to find every cockroach that did something like this and make them suffer in a worse way.

CR

Punishment should be worse then the crime. The perp should have a net loss.

That is not to say blinding him is the most humane or smart option. After all it just puts the burden of looking after him on to someone else, when he should be working twice as hard to provide for himself and the women (and her family) who he attacked.

Game theory does support tic for tac responses.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I just read this article [WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGE] and it made me rethink my position.



Pouring acid on the son-of-a-bitch's face isn't enough.

This sort of abominable attack happens because there is not enough 'eye for an eye' justice.

If every single one of those sub-human beasts who attacked a woman in this way knew, knew with complete certainty in their hearts that they would get it even worse, trust me, there would be much, much less of this.

That article has made me angrier than most any other thing I've read. I want to find every cockroach that did something like this and make them suffer in a worse way.

CR

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And then what does that person's family do in response to the fact that you did something so horrific to their brother/son/in law? They come back at you and attack more of YOUR family members, in even more gruesome methods. You, angered they would dip to such low methods, go even further in revenge. Where does it end? Until whole villages are annihilated? Whole towns? Provinces? Countries? Give me some proof that such a tactic actually prevents such violence. Actual studies and facts would be preferable instead of heated rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I just read this article [WARNING: DISTURBING IMAGE] and it made me rethink my position.



Pouring acid on the son-of-a-bitch's face isn't enough.

This sort of abominable attack happens because there is not enough 'eye for an eye' justice.

If every single one of those sub-human beasts who attacked a woman in this way knew, knew with complete certainty in their hearts that they would get it even worse, trust me, there would be much, much less of this.

That article has made me angrier than most any other thing I've read. I want to find every cockroach that did something like this and make them suffer in a worse way.

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I am forever torn on this subject. In my mind, I understand all criminological, sociological, practical arguments. But in my heart...

Maybe we are criminally lax. In my heart of hearts, I would love to put every deranged criminal five minutes in a room with nothing but a blunt pencil, a spoon, and one Crazed Rabbit. :2thumbsup: