Stretched too thin over the map..what next?

Hey guys,
I am playing on Venice on M/VH (my first M2TW game). I am in a bit of jam here…maybe you guys could give me some advice. Here is my situation:

1) I decided to play as Pope’s poster boy. ..hoping catholic neighbors will break their alliances and allow me to lunch crusades on them after excomm. However, the alliances have been very solid. Only Sicily attacked me, which allowed me to capture southern Italy, and their North African territory (Tripoli). I have the three North African provinces on east of Alexandria (I have kicked the Moors out of Africa), but Marrakesh (Morocco) keeps getting attacked by Moors’ territory from Spain, but I have managed to hold them off without too much trouble. But it means wasting a 8 star general in Morocco just defending.

2) I joined the Crusade to Jerusalem, and after capturing that with my Doge/faction leader, I used my crusading army to capture the two Egyptian territories near it (Gaza and one north of Jeru). However, Egyptians keep pestering me, and I can’t get my Doge out of Jerusalism without public order going really low (even if there are lots of troops there), wasting another 6 star general. My Middle Eastern territory and North African provide are separated by two Egyptian provinces.

3) Beside Jersalem & Gaza, North Africa, Durrazo, Regusa, (and the other one beside Adriac), Italy (except of Rome and Milan’s territories), I hold Rhodes, Crete, Sardinia (and the island north of it), Corinth, the territory beside (Thessasolni? [sp]..), Constantinople, and a province in Asia minor north of Rhodes.

4) As you can I see I am stretched really too thin and don’t have lots of income (around 5K a turn now), so development in some my cities has been really slow. If Milan and HRE break their alliance on me, I am totally screwed.

What do you guys think I should do next? I am thinking of giving all my middle eastern territories (Jeru, Gaza,etc) to the Pope and taking my large army there to help my effort war against Byzantium instead of fighting Egyptians…and repelling Moorish attacks in Morocco and when they are weakened launch an attack South of Spain. What do you guys think? Is there a strategic worth to keeping Jerusalem and its surrounding territories?

Hmmm, I just finished a Long Campaign as Venice. I found that at times I was overstretched too, with my income suffering.

However, I soon learned to regulate my expansion, and instead build up an economic infastructure, especially in my Italian/Balkan provinces.

Jerusalem is often going to drag you down - it is far away from your capital and therefore extra unrest and less money etc, it is often 0% Catholic, compounding your grievances. I sometimes choose to simply take it, get the benefits which the Crusade brings, and then leave it and seek targets which are more agreeable.

My advice is:

1) For your expedition into Africa, I reccomend that Marrakesh is worthwhile only if you also take Timbuktu, the province directly south. It is an economic bonus, with gold, ivory and slave resources. Get merchants there as well. There is nothing wrong with a little expansion here, I have often gone on to take Granada, which is a Castle, and therefore to support the army there.

2) Pull out of these provinces. Losing them will free you up to more conservative expansion. You can always get another Crusade on Jerusalem.

3) Get some economic infastructure; it will take time but pretty soon you will be earning 20K+.

4) Sad to say, you might have to displease the Pope a bit and start attacking your Catholic neighbors. Milan holds some key economic areas (Genoa, Milan, and often Florence). If you control these you will be in a better position.

Rapid expansion will be possible once again when you are the richest and most powerful faction.

What turn are you at by the way? If still in early/middle stages, no need to panic, you have time to consolidate what you do have, and to strengthen your position. If you're in the late stages, you need to be dominating your Catholic neighbors.

Welcome to the Org, LordSardar:bow:

A suggestion to your Moorish front is some naval dominance in the area via the control of the land bridge between Iberia and N. Africa (by placing your navy on the green arrow), blocking Moorish troops from Iberia from crossing over. Just make sure that fleet can handle any Moorish navy that attempts to displace it.

In the Holy Land, I suggest converting the population of Jerusalem to Christianity as soon as possible, as religious unrest (aside from pop. size and distance from capital) are the biggest cause of unhappiness. All priests, present or trained, in the area should be concentrated in Jerusalem. More priests, or better church buildings, in the settlement, the better (the priests become better too, this way). In time, that and sufficient garrison size (80% in settlement details scroll, composed of cheap militia and peasants from castles) should allow your Doge to move out of Jerusalem w/o causing riot (at least above 70% at lowest taxes)
Also, taking Cairo and Alexandria will severely cripple the Fatimids. (Be prepared to sack, or worse exterminate)

Convert idle castles to cities. One castle can supply troops to its surrounding settlements, only exception is your borders with enemies (& the regions where Mongols will appear). Decide whether you can risk turning certain castles into towns/cities.

Personally, I never advise retreating. It just feels wrong.

Your first order of business needs to be streamlining. Basically look at your non-combat regions and take the unneeded combat units and either disband them (prefered) or redistribute them to combat areas. One major area you'll probably need to look at is your navy. Ships are EXPENSIVE. Cut down the number of fleets you have and you'll save a ton of cash.

Now you need to realign your infrastructure. This means getting rid of castle in areas that aren't going to need them. You don't need castles in areas like Sardinia, Tunis, and Sicily, and they can all be converted into profitable cities (especially Sicily/Palermo). For Castles, you may want to consider allowing each one to have a specialty type of troop and then allowing other castles to provide the other troops. In the areas that are already cities build the port line of buildings as well as the markets.

Finally, you need to make investments in conquering for cash. As Lorenzo_H suggested, taking Timbuktu will allow you to get at least 3,000 additional funds per turn (and much more with good merchants). Another investment you'll need to make is converting the holy lands. This also means eying the Milanese territories once you've got enough cash to strike them.

Thanks for all your great suggestion everyone! Can't wait to try them out...hopefully soon... I have forced myself not to play this game for this week day due to very important work related and personal commitments...this game is addictive! Anyways, I digest. Here is few more questions:

1) As mentioned...this is my first M2TW campaign and I never expereinced Mongols, but I am reading about them here. The pop-out about them came few turns ago but they have still yet apeared near near any of my territories? Will they mostly attack Asia minor or do I have to worry about my tiny empire in Holy Lands (IF I stay there)?

2) War with Byzantium - After I took Constantinople, they sent me a full stack army which I managed to repel. Will they bother too much in future and if yes, it it worth expanding in Asia Minor or should I just beef the defences at Constantinople and focus on Catholic factions instead? (Maybe try blocking the bridge with the ship as it was suggested to do for Marrakesh?)

3)I left Palmero as a castle and it is currently my most up to date castle (I believe the highest level). Is it still a huge economic advantage to turn it to a city? I was thinking of using as base for troops against Milan/HRE when I go to war for them (by transffering them to Northern Italy with ships). There are other castle tho I should turn to cities - I think that has been my mistake so far - too many castles, I basically never converted any castle to city after conquest.

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Originally Posted by LordSardar

Anyways, I digest. .

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haha "I digress." ~;)

Anyway, I'll see if I can help you a bit more:

1) Yes, you do have to worry about the Mongols. I don't think I've ever done a campaign where they haven't gone to brutal lengths to take down Jerusalem. Expect 3 or 4 full stacks of Mongol hordes with Generals who all have 8-10 stars and 8-10 dread. They are by no means invincible, of course, but they make things a lot more interesting for any plans you have for that region. I'm sure better players than me will give you tips on how to deal with them - they generally have lots and lots of horse archers and heavy cavalry, with a few spearmen and dismounted archers.

2) This depends. Assess your strength here, assess the Byzantine strength here. Is an invasion of Turkey going to end in disaster, or success? On my Venice campaign, I took Constantinople, and then sent 2 generals (including my faction leader) into Turkey to capture more cities. It didn't work, I was cornered by 2 Byzantine stacks, and lost both the generals. I went on to lose Constantinople again, but I returned and recaptured it, but henceforth decided just to consolidate that and not be any more ambitious. Constantinople is the one required province you need to fulfill the victory conditions, by the way.

3) I generally only want 1 castle for every 3-5 cities. If Palermo's strategic location means you need it to crank out soldiers, by all means do so. Other places you may want to make cities; I would reccomend all other Italian provinces to be cities. That should help with your economic situation.

take timbuktu, immediately. transform as many castles into cities, and get some money flowing in. Beef up jerusalem and constantinople, let the mongols eat up the turks and the byzantines. After they're all dead, bring in a full stack or five and just start taking every city in the area. Oh, and keep an army of priests in the middle east, and try to convert the entire middle east to christianity. Leave the milanese/hre alone unless they attack you, in which case call a crusade on their unholy cities and crush them. In timbuktu, take 1 peasant unit, and park it on the gold mine. Then have as many merchants as possible join in on that spot-enemy merchants can't get to you, and you have like 5 merchants make at least 1k each per turn

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Originally Posted by Lorenzo_H

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Originally Posted by LordSardar
Anyways, I digest. .

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haha "I digress." ~;)

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“I am the king of the Romans and above grammar”…LOL, sorry, I always wanted to say that. Just kidding and thanks for the correction, it was very late at night here when I posted.

Thanks again everyone. I think I will stay in Middle East. From a strategic standpoint, it might not sense in my current situation but it looks like it will make things so much more interesting.

"He who defends everything defends nothing" Another in-game quote, and apposite in this instance. It goes against the grain, but I would recommend you abandon the middle east as soon as possible. Sell everything that isn't nailed down, then get the hell out (give them away or just remove the garrison and allow them to rebel). Unless you have majorly advanced cities/castles in the middle east (and convert most of the population to Catholic) you cannot defend against the Mongols (and later the Timurids), they will suck you into major financial expenditure then spit you like a goat. Instead, I recommend the following:

1. Concentrate troop build-up in Spain. Destroy the Moors and create a defendable frontier at Zaragoza (city) and Pamplona (castle)
2. In the Middle East, forget it. Unless really strong, just defend Constantinople - push forward to Nicaea if you can - then Smyrna, etc
3. As for Italy, Venice and HRE will eventually be excommunicated. When they are, be ready to attack.
4. Don't bother to take Timbuktu - unless very strong, takes too long to get there with a decent army - but get merchants down there asap.
5. Personally, I have found the best way to defeat the Mongols is: allow them to besiege your settlement. You need a mixed force, ideally 6 or more long-range archers, at least 2 (preferably 3 or 4) artillery (mostly not ballistae), 3 to 4 cavalry and the rest any decent infantry. Wear them down in sallies, while they build their siege weapons. They will either retreat (if you kill enough) or attack (when you will kill them at the walls). Castles are better, because you can retreat to the 2nd/3rd line of defence if necessary.
6. If you hold Libya (Tripoli), you can attack East or West - in your situation, an attack on Egypt is sensible, and doesn't annoy the pope. If you hold Cairo and Alexandria you will control the Middle East.
7. Watch for a Mongol/Timurid thrust North of the Black Sea, which will happen if they are blocked in Turkey/MIddle East. Best point to defend is, in my opinion, the castle of Iasi.
8. OMG, read these forums! Esp. the faction-specific guides. If you follow them to the letter they will get you through the early game and give yu a chance in the late game.

Proserpine, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you.

1. In my opinion sending troops into Spain is just going to end in stretching yourself more in the short term. You will get involved in a war with the Christian Factions, and you'll end up needing plenty of troops.

2. If you can hold the Middle East, why leave it? Unless you have a big need for troops elsewhere and are looking at going into debt, I just don't see the logic in retreating. Fighting the Mongols is one of the best parts of the game. It is a great challenge.

3. Timbuktu is actually decently quick to get to. Just send down a useless family member and once he gets to the city, hire local mercs to win the battle.

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Originally Posted by Ratwar

Proserpine, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you.

1. In my opinion sending troops into Spain is just going to end in stretching yourself more in the short term. You will get involved in a war with the Christian Factions, and you'll end up needing plenty of troops.

2. If you can hold the Middle East, why leave it? Unless you have a big need for troops elsewhere and are looking at going into debt, I just don't see the logic in retreating. Fighting the Mongols is one of the best parts of the game. It is a great challenge.

3. Timbuktu is actually decently quick to get to. Just send down a useless family member and once he gets to the city, hire local mercs to win the battle.

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Ratwar, as Venice, the Middle East and Spain are about equal as a stretch. If you can't hold the Middle East with locally produced forces, it is pointless to try to reinforce. I find Spain is takeable and the Pamplona/Zaragoza axis is very defendable - if attacked you can push forward to Toulouse and Bordeaux - and Toulouse is within range - almost - from Venice. It also allows you attack Milan from 2 directions, which cannot be bad. Middle East will get you embroiled with Byzantium, Turkey and Egypt - plus any crusaders who make it there, as well as the Mongols and the Timurids, unless you get at least Turkey as far north as Tblisi and the whole Middle East including all the coastal cities (Adana, Antioch, Gaza) as well as Jerusalem, Damascus and Edessa, and down as far as Cairo and Alexandria. If you take the whole Middle East though, the game is probably won.

Yes, Pull out of the middle east! Well, except for the island of cyprus. Keep that and develop it for it will be your staging area for later periods. I do agree go ahead and take the Iberian Peninsula and attack from 2 sides. Ummmm once you have Gunpowder you can go and beat the timurids/Mogols out of Jerusalem and the rest of the middle east. I know I know sounds like a long game but nothing beats mass arquebusiers(same range as Pavise xbows) or Musketeers on field battles.

I think you should make that 8-start general a conquerer instead of a defender. You can safely take out the Moors without angering the Pope. That will push your border against Spain, who will eventually attack and allow you to get additional cities. I wouldn't send that many troops over there since your real goal as Venice needs to be dislodging Milan and expanding into Greece. Having control of the adriatic sea is amazing since all your ports will be trading with other ports and you gain money at both ends (better than trade rights). By expanding close to home first, you don't have to deal with the huge distance-from-captial hit you're taking in spain and the middle east.

To leave the middle east, sell all the buildings and try selling the cities to rich factions or gift them to the pope. If you hold them a bit, you can use them to win back the pope's graces after you demolish Milan. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Marauder

I think you should make that 8-start general a conquerer instead of a defender. You can safely take out the Moors without angering the Pope. That will push your border against Spain, who will eventually attack and allow you to get additional cities. I wouldn't send that many troops over there since your real goal as Venice needs to be dislodging Milan and expanding into Greece. Having control of the adriatic sea is amazing since all your ports will be trading with other ports and you gain money at both ends (better than trade rights). By expanding close to home first, you don't have to deal with the huge distance-from-captial hit you're taking in spain and the middle east.

To leave the middle east, sell all the buildings and try selling the cities to rich factions or gift them to the pope. If you hold them a bit, you can use them to win back the pope's graces after you demolish Milan. Good luck!

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I like your Plan better compared to mine now... LOL

If you DO decide to stick it out in the Middle East, you should consider turning its cities into Castles. When the Mongols arrive you're going to need all the help you can get, especially the first time you meet them. With experience you'll be able to deal with them handier but castle defenses are DEFINITELY handy in whittling them down.

An easy way to secure your borders permanently and placate the pope permanently is to gift regions you conquer to him. Depending on how you wish to play, after all the provinces would take away from your score but consider:

1: No catholic faction will usually attack papal lands.

2: The pope will very very rarely attack a catholic faction, and if so they would have been excomm already.

3: The pope will keep alliances easier with you usually until you decide to break them. Just keep building churches and priests and the occasional florin gift.

The papacy also upgrades its units over time like any other faction meaning you could gift them a powerful citadel and then they could start producing "A" units

I often use this tactic for locking the borders to Iberia,Italy,Byz,and the Mid-East.The reverse also applies if you were defending the continent, but to a lesser degree because of the steppe areas and factions you would be facing. Can also use with Denmark by taking/gifting Hamburg early to avoid war with the HRE.

I use mainly for borders, best for bottleneck provinces that HAVE to be used to get to you.