Helping Humanity Grow Up (An Orgah project)

The first organised thread since the elections of Victonia is coming to the Backroom.

This thread is about helping humanity grow past itself so we could finally evolve for the first time since Adam ate the Passion Fruits of Heaven.

Table of debates:

1) Neo-fascists are usually the first to betray their homeland.
2) Practical lessons from the Holy Bible for fundamentalists.
3) The first "man/woman/she-male" is only the first sperm to reach the :oops: .


First Round: Neo-fascist are traitors.

Let me tell you a story about a neo-fascist organisation in my country called Noua Dreapta (www.nouadreapta.org) or "New Right", an organisation risen from the ashes of the former Iron Guard.
This political force claims to back all Romanians from all corners of the world against their moral opressors. But is it?
In Timok Krajina (the region south of the Danube past the Iron Gates Dam in Serbia and Bulgaria) lives a prosperous and numerous Romanian comunity (called Vlachs by Serbs). Despite the friendship between the two nations (Romania and Serbia), that community is under pressure from the Serbian goverment through assimilation and legal actions. The Vlachs are denied recognition of their Romanian descent, they are denied the study of their native tongue, are threatened with lawsuits and so on.
Throuought history the Serbian and Romanian states have enjoyed special relations.
During the Balkan Wars, WW1 and Interwar Period Romania and Yugoslavia\Serbia ware close allies and friends. During WW2, though an Axis minor power, not a single Romanian soldier occupied Serbian soil as a proof of the special relationship.
During the Communist Era Tito and Ceausescu signed economic and political agreements. They even built a dam together, and Romania sacrificed an island for that matter that legally belonged to her.
Romania even helped afterwards, as part of KFOR Romanian troops ware entrusted with the safety of the Serbian enclaves.
Romanians and Serbians share the word used for describing honour (obraz) and religion.
And among the NATO members Romania is the only neighbour who didn't recognise the Independence of Kosovo.
All fair game on the Romanian part but on the Serbian part the discrimination of the Romanians in Serbia continues...which leads me to the following conclusion.
The nationalist forces of my country have betrayed their nation.
Why?
a) Pro-Serbian marches in Timisoara against the independance of Kosovo while said state persecuted Romanians in Serbia, denying their basic human rights.
b) Nationalist EU MP's voted a Serbian amendament rearding the recognition of the Vlach ethnicity as separate from Romanians.
It is like Americans would vote the recognition of the Gringo ethnicity as a separate minority in Mexic. Quite sad actually.
c) Noua Dreapta still has a link exchange in his website with the Srpski Obraz, as part of the European Nationalist Comunity.It is senseless, you can't have a link exchange with another political force that states "Vlachs to Romania, Serbs to Serbia" when those two nations share the Orthodox faith, a river and a long history of friendship.Especialy when you're claming to be a respectable far-right organisation fighting for your nationality.

So conclusion:
Fascist organisations are just a fanclub for people with a fetish for black and red uniforms.
Fascists don't fight for anything except fame and cool publicity.
Fascists are likely to know nothing about their history. If you ware to put an italian fascist in a brittish neo-nazi group, he'll blend in. Not because of political unity between the two, but because both share a common fetish for the same items (celtic cross, swastica, fascii, a baby picture of Adolph).
Fascist organisations defend only their wallets and media coverage
Fascist organisations in accordance to their beliefs should be individualist, nation oriented. But modern fascists everywhere are just a big, happy fammily regardless of historical conflicts between their nations. Their only concern are illegal, politically neutral immigrants from Asia and Africa. Strange!!!

There is a lot of trouble in the region, between Magyars and Romanians, Serbians and almost everyone else, Greeks and Macedonians (well the FYROM). I am constatntly treated to almost absurd levels of racism from those Romanians who hate Magyars and those Magyars who hate Romanians. In London we had three housekeepers, all from the Balkans, one Croatian one Serbian and one from FYROM, they had all fled from conflicts created by racism yet niether of them ever had anything but friendly realtions with one another.

With time this racism so prevelent amongst Eastern Europeans seems to be getting stronger and far more absurd, creating ever stronger nationalism under the guidance of these far right fascists. It would seem to me, at least in the case of Romania and Hungary concerning places like Transylvania, that nation states (a much admired state of affairs in my opinion) are what is wrong with the region. We all rushed out after WWI and declared ourselves part of ethnically homogenous nation states, when in fact the former Austro-Hungarian Empire was so mixed up that such things are logical fallacy in this of all places. We are now, I believe dealing with the problems of this stupidity, with Serbs angry, Kosovars angry, Magyars angry, Vlach angry, everyone is angry, because the experiment failed.

I reckon we all just need to group (hug) together and recognise our shared histories and culture, bit wishy washy I know, but meh...

Quote:

---

Fascist organisations are just a fanclub for people with a fetish for black and red uniforms.

---

Where do non-fascists of that proclivity congregate? :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cronos Impera

But is it?
In Timok Krajina (the region south of the Danube past the Iron Gates Dam in Serbia and Bulgaria) lives a prosperous and numerous Romanian comunity (called Vlachs by Serbs). Despite the friendship between the two nations (Romania and Serbia), that community is under pressure from the Serbian goverment through assimilation and legal actions. The Vlachs are denied recognition of their Romanian descent, they are denied the study of their native tongue, are threatened with lawsuits and so on.
Throuought history the Serbian and Romanian states have enjoyed special relations.
During the Balkan Wars, WW1 and Interwar Period Romania and Yugoslavia\Serbia ware close allies and friends. During WW2, though an Axis minor power, not a single Romanian soldier occupied Serbian soil as a proof of the special relationship.
During the Communist Era Tito and Ceausescu signed economic and political agreements. They even built a dam together, and Romania sacrificed an island for that matter that legally belonged to her.
Romania even helped afterwards, as part of KFOR Romanian troops ware entrusted with the safety of the Serbian enclaves.
Romanians and Serbians share the word used for describing honour (obraz) and religion.
And among the NATO members Romania is the only neighbour who didn't recognise the Independence of Kosovo.
All fair game on the Romanian part but on the Serbian part the discrimination of the Romanians in Serbia continues...which leads me to the following conclusion.
The nationalist forces of my country have betrayed their nation.
Why?
a) Pro-Serbian marches in Timisoara against the independance of Kosovo while said state persecuted Romanians in Serbia, denying their basic human rights.
b) Nationalist EU MP's voted a Serbian amendament rearding the recognition of the Vlach ethnicity as separate from Romanians.
It is like Americans would vote the recognition of the Gringo ethnicity as a separate minority in Mexic. Quite sad actually.
c) Noua Dreapta still has a link exchange in his website with the Srpski Obraz, as part of the European Nationalist Comunity.It is senseless, you can't have a link exchange with another political force that states "Vlachs to Romania, Serbs to Serbia" when those two nations share the Orthodox faith, a river and a long history of friendship.Especialy when you're claming to be a respectable far-right organisation fighting for your nationality.

---

Ok, I'm aware that the past decade or two could be called "let's take a pot-shot at Serbia" but let us give it a rest, shall we? It is getting ridiculous. Part of the bad rep we've got in the nineties led every nationalist in surrounding countries to blame Serbia in one way or another because their nation is not big/rich/cool enough. Now we have nationalists in Macedonia claiming ancient lineage directly from Alexander the Great and how Serbs forced them all to declare as Serbs and at the same time, nationalists from Bulgaria are saying the all people in Macedonia are actually Bulgarians and Serbs invented Macedonian nationality to take Macedonia away from Bulgaria. When you look at them together, those two things are a logical paradox, but who gives a them? Let's put the blame Serbia and Serbs for everything we don't like. It is by far the easiest way. It's also popular and catches on quickly...

Concerning Vlachs - well, calling them Romanians is pretty far fetched. If you know the troublesome history of the Balkans, you know that invaders as a rule settled on the fertile plains, pushing those who were there before them to hills and mountains. Relative seclusion of those groups are the primary reason we have so many different small ethnic groups in the Balkans. They lived in small communities, with very little contact with the rest people. Vlachs are one such community. Most of them don't consider themselves Romanians. They consider themselves related to Romanians but not Romanians. Language is not the same (they speak Aromanian, not Romanian), names are not the same, customs are not the same. They're treated as a separate ethnic community in Serbia and they were allowed to declare themselves as anything they like. In the 2002 census, almost every single ethnic group was given as option for people to declare themselves as, plus the blank space to write one if it is not on the list and it was forbidden to question it under any circumstances, and I mean any circumstances. If you want an example how strictly it was, I can tell you that under 2002 census, there are about 150 Eskimos and 200 Martians (yes, aliens from planet Mars) living in Serbia. There's also some Inuits, Incas and god knows what else, also in smaller number. Vlachs tended to declare themselves as Vlachs mostly. Also a good portion of them, although aware of their Vlach origin, declared themselves as Serbs, not unlike German-Americans declare themselves American by nationality but are aware and respectful of their German roots. Very, very few of them declared themselves as Romanians.

Furthermore, never in history were Vlachs not allowed to declare themselves Romanian or were denied their basic human rights. Their identity as Vlachs and their secluded communities date back to the early middle ages (they were mentioned as a class of cattle breeders in Dusan's Code from the mid XIV century), long before the idea of Romania or Romanian nationality existed. In the 19th and 20th century, when most Balkans countries liberated from by then backward Ottoman Empire, Vlachs and many other small ethnic communities found themselves more and more connected with the rest of the population because technology and infrastructure development. Some groups, Vlachs being one of them, managed to preserve their identity although many of them quite freely felt Serbian. In fact, the greatest Serbian play-writer (like Shakespeare in England, although he wrote mostly satirical comedies) was a Vlach by birth. He wrote in Serbian language and felt Serbian. He even legally changed his name from Alchiviadi al Nusha (not exactly a pure Romanian name, wouldn't you say?) to Branislav Nusic. He fought in the Serbian army, was the head of the Serbian National Theater in Novi Sad and in general had a brilliant career.

If you consider them to be Romanians just because their language is in the same group as Romanian, you really need to rethink your position. Modern Romanian borrowed a lot of Slavic words while Aromanian (language spoken by Vlachs) was influenced heavily by Greek. Serbian and Czech are in the same group linguistically, but that doesn't mean that Serbs are Czechs or that Czechs are Serbs. In fact, Serbs and Croats; Americans and English; Portuguese and Brazilians; Germans and Austrians; etc... speak the same language but that doesn't mean they're interchangeable. Vlachs used to live in relatively isolated communities and developed their language and culture separately from Serbs or Romanians. After technology and infrastructure developed enough they've stopped being isolated communities and some of them were naturally assimilated in the majority, although most of them still consider themselves not as Serbs or Romanians but as Vlachs... Maybe you think they're Romanians, or you believe they should be Romanians or that anyone speaking a language similar to Romanian should be Romanian by nationality. And just for your information, it was around 1000 years ago that Vulgar Latin spoken in the Balkan provinces of the Roman Empire split into four languages: Daco-Romanian (evolved into modern Romanian language), Megleno-Romanian, Istro-Romanian and Aromanian (spoken by Vlachs). Now, I'm aware that there are some nationalistic theories in Romania how speakers of any of those languages are Romanians. For example, that's why Nikola Tesla is considered a Romanian according to Romanian textbooks, because he's of supposed Istro-Romanian origin (Istro-Romanians live in modern day Croatia, btw). Anyway, it's your opinion and you're entirely entitled to it, but don't use lies against Serbs or Serbia, especially about ethnic issues and human rights violations. We had a lot of bad rep because of that (a good portion of it rightly deserved), so please refrain yourself from spreading additional lies (as we've had more than enough of those as well)...

Lastly, if you don't believe me, go and check for yourself. You're not across the world and eastern part of Serbia where Vlachs live is probably no more than several hours trip by car for you, and ask them yourself do they think they're denied their basic human rights, are they forbidden from declaring as Romanians or forced to declare as Serbs.

Eastern Europe is fascinating.

Well, I'm sorry for derailing the thread, but I felt that was insulting and had to respond. It angers me when people try to blame everyone else instead of looking at themselves first. I know it's easier that way but that's not now how it should be. Those you insult are people too. Is it so hard to familiarize yourself with something before you start accusing? Am I an idiot because I've read every single post in "Some joyous tidings from Israel" thread and didn't want to enter discussion because I don't feel I know enough about the issue? Am I an idiot because I try to understand more? To read what other people, who are more familiar with that issue, are saying? Should I have just went in guns blazing and said Israeli/Palestinians are baby-murdering rapists/bigots/racists/Nazis?

Precisely this kind of spreading of ignorance is a good part of why people in the world have a rather bad opinion of Serbia. Bopa said that Serbs are at odds with everyone else in the Balkans. That is his impression and I bet he never visited Serbia once. Well, Serbia is by far the most diverse country in the Balkans ethnically. There are literally dozens of various ethnic groups living here: Bosniaks, Hungarians, Slovaks, Germans, Bulgarians, Romanians, Vlachs, Turks, Ruthenians, Goranis, Croats, Bunjevci, Sokci, Russians, Ukranians, Jews... I could go on and on.

Here's some more debate topics for you, Cronos Impera, one that could also help humanity grow:

4) How can one improve oneself without casting the blame on others

5) Should people educate themselves about an issue before they talk about it and especially before they start accusing others