KH Advice?

I'm making the rounds with different factions, trying to get our of my bubble and "beat" the game w/ each faction. I started up a KH campaign and WOW is it different from Epiros or Rome.

That being said, what are your successful starting tactics when playing the KH? The Hoplitai Hoploi and even Spartan FM body guards suck compared to Phalangitai Deuteroi.

I tried two separate openings, here they are:

The first involves pulling the army from Krete and adding it with the forces in Athenai, then marching from the unseiged city (in HORRIBLE forested/mountainous terrain) to get rid of the Mak FL and his ridiculous force of impenetrable phalanxes. Of course, my units melt away like ice on a summer day without any phalanxes of my own to pin the enemy juggernaut. EPIC FAIL

The second tactic involves letting them seige Athenai hoping that I can conquer the city north of Sparte before the city falls, thereby making the Mak FL come down to relieve his other army. However, he doesn't do this and my smaller force (since the troops are still in Athenai) can't take the Mak city w/out getting obliterated themselves or Athenai falling.

:help:

I take my army from crete to sparta and then with most of my army seige korinth and macedonia didnt do anything about it and they didnt even seige Athens i then go to take Chalkis and that starts me off.

In my KH campaign I assemble most of my army in Athenai before Macedonia laid siege to it waiting for them to attack the town. When they did, my elites on the walls took care of them. Their phalangitai died as soon as they had climbed up the ladders. Almost no losses on my part (except of course the ones lost during the siege)

Option #3 Migrate to safety...

Phalangites are easy to kill, especially if you use your better hoplites against them. Use the levy hoplites to defend against cavalry and keep them close behind your better ones. Never attack the center of a phalanx, though you could use spartans general bodyguards to keep them busy for a bit while you circle around.

In my experience, I had a terrible time starting out. But here's what I did to at least give myself a fighting chance:

Withdraw soldiers from Krete by boat. Leave the spy. Park the boat in the port of Athens. The soldiers on the ship will be unable to unload due to their movement points being depleted.

Take your strongest men from Sparta (both family members) and their armies and send them to the ship. Unload them directly on the docks. In this way, you're at least able to have your forces combined at one spot.

In Athens, recruit two units of Hippakonistai. A big weakneess infantry-based armies have is the lack of ability to chase down routing enemies. The last thing you want in the early game is a re-emergence of enemy phalangites.

Makedonia seems to be preoccupied with the Epeirotes. When they are far enough away, take your army and take over Chalkis. Also, with a small force, load the ships and sail for Mytilene. There is a very small garrison present on that island, which should be able to be taken by the end of the third turn. There are no defenses, and the AI does not seem to even bother doing anything to the island. Leaving a minimal garrison afterward doesn't cause many problems. I tend to leave behind a unit of Akonistai for garrison duty.

The Makedonians seem bent on taking over Athens. But for some reason, the AI tends to task them so that their entire force moves off to the forest outside of the city whenever you sally forth. Use this to your advantage. Park your units of slingers and your Kretan Archers on the walls. They'll cause tremendous casualties to the enemies below.

Very large hills surround Athens, and even the gate appears to be in a valley. But if you move a few units of Hoplitai Haploi, some Akonistai, and Hippakonistai (or better yet, and your Kretan Archers if they still have ammunition), the enemy often sends units to try to counter your new position. Your soldiers will become exhausted from scaling the hill, but so will the enemy. Use the ranged units to knock out targets below. Even cavalry under fire from above don't stand much of a chance. I've even exhausted the famed Hetairoi to the point where Hippakonistai can hack them to pieces in close-combat.

When the main Makedonian army is far enough away, you should also plan to take Korinthos as well.

NOTES ON FIGHTING PHALANXES:

The Makedonian phalanx is the bane of the Greek Hoplitai. But there are ways to defeat them. First off, keep your units in guard mode when charging. Usually this is ill-advised. But often the phalangites seem to change the focus on where they're attacking. When their sarissae are pointed in the wrong direction so that you have a massive flank to attack, charge it, then when engaged, take the units out of guard-mode. This causes your hoplitai to spread out and it begins to hack the enemy phalanx from the inside out. Usually when this happens, the enemy routes. Even elites become panicked when there are enemy hoplitai staring at them within their own ranks.

Another tactic I enjoy is using the Akonistai to attack the rears of phalanxes. Their javelins cause high casualties when they attack from the rear, and then when they charge, the massive 240-unit usually panics the enemy to the point that they'll run away.

Phalanxes are tough, but fortunately, they're not as invincible as they seem. Survive long enough and you'll have phalangites of your own, along with cavalry to do the damage. Think how ironic it would be if the Makedonian "hammer and anvil" tactics were used against them by the Hellenes?

Good luck! Hope this helps! :2thumbsup:

When I am playing the KH, I do not engage phalangite-armies lightly, yet I don't have much trouble defeating them. My guess is you are either not using your hoplites correctly or playing at H or VH battle difficulty. Yes, you cannot defeat levy phalanxes head-on, but that's what phalanxes are made for. Instead, you should use their weaknesses by attacking them from multiple sides. This can be a bit tricky when you are outnumbered, so the first priority is to lure their supporting troops away and defeat those. This is generally easy since the A.I. is bad at maintaining a line and phalanxes regularly lag behind. Then, once your troops have been reformed and regained some stamina you should pin the phalanxes with something sturdy yet expendable (hoplites haploi are excellent for this job), and then assault them from the other side. It also helps when you engage them downslope: there is some kind of bug that makes them phalanxes effective when their opponents are not at equal height.

I've played KH campaign a long time ago, but here's what I did:

I shipped the troops from Crete to Greece, aligned with Epiros. Epirotes are besieging Pella at the start and it gave me a little time to reorganize as Maks moved some forces in that direction. You can let them try to lay siege to Athens, just make sure you have enough Hoplitai Hoploi on the walls. Starting Mak phalangites will die horribly on the walls. I use all spare forces to take Corinth. After it's done, I move to relieve Athens or if Athens repelled invasion to combaine forces again and attack Chalchis (don't remember how that island city is called) or attack Demetrias. Once you take either of them the Maks are not a threat as they usually lose Pella to Epirotes.

As to fighting phalanxes with hoplitai - I didn't deploy them on the straight line. I used a curved frontline so that the phalanx line would break and I'd be able to flank some phalanxes. When flanked, levy phalanx will die to levy hoplites or Peltastai. I remember I conquered entire Macedonia with mostly Hoplitai Hoploi because I couldn't afford yet to produce a lot of Classical Hoplites. Hoplitai Hoploi are one of the best militias available and do excellent job for their price.

Thank you all for your advice. I'll be trying out these tactics tonight!

Usually this isnt a problem when i play as the KH cuz they move to repel the Eperoites from Makedon proper. So i have enough time to take The Crete city and build up enough force to take Korinth. Its when they come back down to siege Athens that i have my big is this campaign gonna win or suck battle.
If ur copm does something diff i cant help ya.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chirurgeon

Option #3 Migrate to safety...

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I second that. I tried it and it worked beautifully.:laugh4:

Edit: Also since the Koinon have 2 or 3 (i can't remember) famous buildings, demolish them for big $$$$$$$$$$. This should give you enough to maintain your army without going into debt (depending on where you migrate to). It should also be enough to build a regional temp. government, and train a couple of units (again depending on where you go to.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the man with no name

I second that. I tried it and it worked beautifully.:laugh4:

Edit: Also since the Koinon have 2 or 3 (i can't remember) famous buildings, demolish them for big $$$$$$$$$$. This should give you enough to maintain your army without going into debt (depending on where you migrate to). It should also be enough to build a regional temp. government, and train a couple of units (again depending on where you go to.)

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Demolish the Colossus AND the Acropolis? Are you mad? No Greek would stand for that! It's blasphemy!

May your shade wander the banks of the river Styx for a thousand years, and then burn in the blackest pits of Tartarus! ~:mecry::whip:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Just kidding. It's worked for others who did that. :laugh4:

If you are willing to use AIs stupidity

Take Krete on turn 1

Take the army out of Sparta except the Akontistai and lay siege on Korinth

Recruit many archers/Slingers in Athens as possible before the attack

When Athens gets sieged, sally. There is a huge hill in the battle field. Make your misile unit run to the hill while the Macedonians runs to their favourite spot.

Shoot

You should kill around 150 each rounds. Repeat

This is what I usually do:

First I give all Hoplite units 0.2 density(and other Phalanx/shieldwall like units without a formation, then I change the AI formations to put guard mode off Koinen Armies.


In the campaign:

I either hire a Cretan archer or Peltastai unit from Crete or upgrade the army in Athens. Then I move my army in Crete to Sparta. Then I lay siege with my Spartan army at Corinth with my navy picking up the Rodians to help aid Athens. Usually Antigonos retreats to the north. After capturing Corinth Chalkis is next. Afterwards build up the economy a bit and build up a strong army, then go north to Thessaly and Makedonia. Though look out for Antigonos, he's dangerous!:yes:

Epeiros would make a good ally. And don't underestimate the Hoplitai Haploi or the familly members. :2thumbsup:

I followed a different strategy on my last KH campaign. Reinforced the faction leader with the armies of Rhodes(except the family member since he tends to die within the year for me) and after taking Kydonia I moved the army against Mytilene.

I led the armies of Sparta against the garisson and the army stationed outside of Korinthos, and although I was beaten I managed to destroy most of the enemy so a counterattack some years later was successfull. At the same time I had to repel a couple of sieges in Athens but by the time Mytelene was taken, with faction leader and his troops able to assist on the mainland, I quickly gained the upper hand against the Antigonids in Macedonia.

to Syracuse!

No but seriously, i like to take Crete the first turn myself. Then i make a temporary allience with Epeiros and tell them to attack Macedon, that removes that huge Makadonian stack from around Athens. Then i build up some units and take Korinthos. I work of of that.

Or you could migrate away as was said and still have an awesome RP experience

Reading through everyone's suggestions, it looks like I'm too stubborn. Or too aggressive... or both.
It's scary.

I usually bring Areus and his troops back because he has no business in Krete, queue up as many units as I can with the finances available, then march to Konrith in the first two rounds. By round 3 I have Korinth taken and then I take my army and just wait for Antigonos and his 20-stack to attack me. Let's see how his Phalangites like Cretan arrows.
A sort of ancient "bring it on, b***", I suppose...

Then if you manage to get rid of that army (with a successful ambush) the march North should be easy. Beware of Pyrrhos... he never knows when to quit.

mm i've never experienced Pyrrhus' relentlessness because every KH campaign i do, he always charges headlong into the front of one of my phalanxes. He always dies on impact.

First turn, siege Kydonia (with your faction leader), Korinthos (with the *all* the troops in Lakedaimonia) and Chalkis (with *all* the troops in Athenai). Train a unit of hippakontistai in Athenai, build roads in Rhodos, leave one ship where the fleet starts, send the rest to Athenai to disband, and disband both infantry units in Rhodos.
Second turn, take Kydonia (with the KH, family members and guard mode are your friend - especially when you are up against armies without a single phalanx unit... such as the one in Kydonia. Just see to it that you are blocking a road with no enemies behind you and mix your levies into the formation to take some pressure off the general if you want to be on the safe side). Take Korinthos - be careful with that siege tower because you get only one: attack the walls at a point where the garrison is *not* defending them and have *both* generals escort the tower in loose formation on either side slightly ahead of it so as to distract the tower-archers; do *not* switch to double or triple speed (bug in my game at least - high speed makes walls rate of fire pick up). Ideally, don't fight the phalangites on the wall - rather see to it that you get everyone up and back down on the inside without confronting the enemy or take one of the unmanned gates and send the rest of the army through there; then plan every move carefully; get the phalanxes from their rears (it is possible if you play them right; use your slingers to lure them - the game gets something of a pac-man feel and you should have *time-limit set to off*. I keep it that way throughout the whole campaign; 30 minutes are just not realistic for the whole battle including deployment and advance and skirmishing and shifting positions and dis- and re-engaging... When there is only one phalanx left guarding the town-square, it is time to use your skirmishers and hoplites: get one general to one of the building-side corners of the town square but don't step onto the square itself yet.
Move both skirmisher units into a single column (both occupying the same space) on the road beside the town square so that they are behind the phalanx when it attacks the aforementioned general, but hold your fire. Move your general onto the edge of the square and keep guard mode on; a column formation is better for your companions than a broad line. The phalanx should attack the general and you can open fire with the skirmishers; when their ammo is spent, there should be ~30phalangites left, kill them with the rest of the melee units.
Usually the Makedonian army at Athenai does not attack in my games in spite of VH campaign difficulty (it only did that up to v. 1.0). If there is no siege on Athenai, send the hippakontistai to help occupy Chalkis - makes the battle go faster because they can chase the enemy everytime they rout and you only have to fight that phalanx *once* that way.
Congratulations, you have just doubled your territory in only three months!
You can move all units except one unit of akontistai out of Kydonia; the faction leader especially will be very useful as a governor on the mainland and a unit of akontistai is more than enough to keep the peace in Kydonia for the next thirty years.
From this point on, your campaign should be much less tense - provided the AI behaves like it does on my machine.
Diplomacy: you should demand 1000 mnai for 10 seasons from Epeiros if you offer them an alliance; their counter-offer is sometimes not bad (once got 5000mnai out of them this way) and they usually prove to be a faithful ally (useful against the Romans if you want to kill them off early on and have access to your own regional hastati) but if you prefer to conquer Epeiros early on don't even settle trade rights - that way they will attack Thermon really soon, enabling you to defeat them in detail, but it also means more trouble with Makedonia.
If AS offer peace, let them pay good - if they break the peace by blockading a port they will eventually be back for peace too, so this is a regular source of income-boosts.
Definitely take Serdike and Tylis as soon as possible, before the Getai get there (you can and should build mines there early in the game). Same goes for Dalminion (Epeiros will move for it sooner or later); careful with the settlement to the north-west of Dalminion as the Romans will want it for themselves and it is far away from your nearest recruitment base. If you can hold all four with mines in them plus Pella and Athenai (and maybe, depending on your Epeiros-policy, even epidamnos which has mines as well) money is no longer going to be your problem, but it is generally preferable to expand in one direction at a time as Rome, Ptolemaioi and the AS are all excellent at spamming huge armies. Be warned that a campaign in Mikra Asia (though very lucrative in the *long* run) will demand *all* your military attention and you had better have very secure borders before starting it. Try obliterating Pontos before taking on AS / for the latter, consider starting by naval invasion at Antiocheia to kill off one of their main recruitment bases. You will need mercenary-cash (for full stacks) to pull this off.

I hope this helps. Have fun and lead the Greeks to victory!

I did a migration strategy, so what gov't should i install in sinope?

local tyrant!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the man with no name

I did a migration strategy, so what gov't should i install in sinope?

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Based on recruitment, a Type2. That way you can get Thorakitai there (L4 Factional MIC) and you should be able to get all the available regional units (only one or two units) with at L3 Regional MIC.

By recruitment, what gov't should i make in Ankyra? Amasiea? Mytilene?

If you want Thorakitai, build a Type2. If it touches the coast it can probably recruit Thorakitai.
Ankyra doesn't have any factional units for KH, so Type3 or Type4.

See the "Recruitment Viewer" -> "Province Details" to see what is best in province.

Thx.

I'm doing a KH campaign right now, and I started by conquering Krete on turn 1 while the Epeirotes distract the Maks, then I rush back to the mainland and take Korinthos and Chalkis as soon as possible. That way I can just start making naval expeditions to conquer everywhere and anywhere along any coast. while only having to defend Athens in Greece. My KH games tend to be just building a gigantic, global empire of trading cities under local tyrants anyways. Britain to India, good stuff.

SPARTANS DO NOT SUCK! you just blow at using them. You need to adopt hitsquad tactics. Accept the fact that your shorter spears mean casualties on the initial engagement. until you adopt better hoplites, you will need to outmanouver the makedonnes to acheive victory. Avoid large confrontations.

when engaging in a field use your skirmishers as a screening force, archers behind your line (get your hands on kretans. they kick ass) your Hoplites are your mainforce. Weaker hoplites in teh centre. Your FM's should be on the flanks. either use your best (usually a smaller hoplite unit with experience) hoplites ,or if your best are on the flanks - use your 2nd best- in a square formation about 10-20m behind your flanks. when the lines engage, doublequick march them around then spread em out so that they are about 3 men deep and envelop the phalanx. use guard mode for your main battle line. Your hitsquads should have it off. Later on you might want to send a force to massalia. Massalia is a crucial greek town. Only because of its incredible unit - Massalian Hoplites. These men are essential for your hitsquad tactics. Samnite's with the swords and shields will also do. but Massalians are much more versatile.
S S S S S

FM---------------------FM
|=| |=|
SL A A A A SL

Legend
S = Skirmishers
FM = FM
|=| = Hit squad
A = Archers
SL = Slingers



About Cavalry..... Hippies are cannon fodder. They are absolute rubbish! use them as a delaying force, or as a scouting force. they have no real use in combat. except when you have the upper hand and you wish to push forth a crumbling line. if you are losing the battle, throw em in as a last ditch effort and.... you'll lose more men.... basically they are outclassed by all other forms of light-medium cavalry and most forms of infantry. I've had units of them devastated by skirmishers in melee... they have little charging capability. and they fail at being a fast hit squad. use them to delay a charge, swarm an engaged enemy, or act as a rear guard as your army retreats. You will want to just avoid recruiting cavalry till you can get a proper cavalry force. Most of your army is heavy infantry with dirty spears in close formation. Your only real worry is Macedonian family members... and well.. Hippies are so bad they usually run like Frenchmen before engaging them.

Later on....

Now that you've got proper infantry you want to use Classical Hoplites and Spartans. These are your main force. I divide my army into two. Athenian empire and Spartans. My all spartan armies are unstoppable. With 2 makedonian Phalangites as a core, 2-4 Spartans on each side, massalian hoplite hitsquads, and slingers and cretan archers supporting, nothing can defeat you. flanking cavalry as still dangerous, and may take careful and devious manouvering in the thick of the fight to save the rear. I suggest you find a suitable answer to your lack of medium cavalry. Mercs are way too expensive to use on a regular basis. the Greek noble cavalry is good. But is no match for the Macedonians. Destroy Macedon at all costs! Do not get sentimental and stop. as soon as you can field a proper professional army, disband your levies and attack Pella! either push them out of the hellas or destroy them if they have nothing north of pella. Rome can be a powerful ally against the Epirotes and Carthage. Securing all of Greece and Yugoslavia is paramount. the money you will get from this will fund expeditions. This is my favourite part of the KH.


Expeditions:
There are many Greek polis scattered around the med. Massalia and Syracuse shall be your first targets.

Syracuse can easily be taken by 4 Spartan Hoplites and a competent spartan leader (whether he has a spartan body guard or not.) Massalia might be tougher, especailly if you are allied with Rome. Massalia is all important though. They have invaluable troops and are poised to have lots and lots of trade via sea routes. Once these 2 are secure you should make sure you keep a strong and powerful garrison. I suggest 1-2 spartan hoplites to lead the garrison. you can stop any attack in the streets with these things (as long as they arent elephants... i haven't fought elephants as the KH yet.) Expeditions are costly sometimes, but depending on your target (antioch, Alexandria, ROME, CARTHAGE) you stand to make a prettttty penny back. I personally liked not sacking antioch and using it as a base to attack the selukids on their hometurf. Expansion from the north of the Hella's I do not recommend. the KH seem to excell at Amphibious assaults. Their position dictates that you can expand west or east or south easily. Shipping troops to one side of the med is not such a large deal. Securing Italy should be a main priority. But for a challenge i recommend leaving the romans for a bit. Especially if you forged an alliance. the Romans can be a good ally... Keep them at a distance though and keep them occupied with an enemy. Carthage is a good common foe, they also put a good fight at sea and land.


What you chose to do from there is ultimately up to you. There are a few things to keep in mind that are a must however.


1- Secure Crete immediately.
2- Disband the Navy
3- Ship your army back to the mainland
4- Secure Corinith
5- Reinforce Athens
6- Push the Makedonnes back through Thermoplaye.( Chalkis must fall!)
7- Hold Thermoplyae till you are out of debt.
8- Get Romano-friendly (for the time being... Gift them extra money sometimes, buy their map info for a grand, and keep your diplomat at rome's gate! They will return in due kindness, and reward your faith in them)
9- Avoid conflict with Pyhrus till you've dealt with the Makedonnes.
10-Leave Thermon!!!!!!!!!! If you attack them while they are independent your belligerence in the eyes of the other Hellenes will go up, you will find it hard to talk diplomacy and you will have both the Epirots and the Makedons coming down on you. Do not enter Pyhrus's war with Rome till Makedon is either destroyed, or suppressed.
11- Always defend, even on the attack! goad the fools into attacking you! their Phalanx will fall apart on the move, and yours will hold! Allowing you swift and chaotic victory!
12- While playing think like a Spartan, and you will win like a Spartan. or die like a Spartan.
12a) My Spartan Army Composition:

General must be Spartan and a Lieutenant of whomever he'd like
5-8 Spartan Hoplites.
2-3 Phalangites
2 Slingers
2 Cretan Archers
1-2 Peltasts or anyhting that hucks large point-ed sticks lol
2-4 Hitsquads (Massalian Hoplites, Celtic Mercs, Dacian Falxmen[BLOODY AMAZING!] anything with long sharpened bits of steel with a handle really.)

12b)Athenian Army Composition
General can be anyone who'd be voted by Athen's to lead their army. Lieutenant of his choice.
5 Classical Hoplites
4 Phalangites
2 Slingers
2 Archers
2 Hitsquads
2-4 Cavalry units (I suggest the heaviest thing you can find)
1-2 Point-ed stick throwers.





I hoped this helped...