Controversial Suggestion for a Mini-Mod

Hi. One of the major flaws, I think, with EB (and as absolutely ALL flaws with EB, it's of course the fault of the RTW engine and NOT the EB team:laugh4:), is that because the AI's either non-existent or, at the best, drunkenly eccentric, handling of naval invasions, the Punic War - or actually more or less any Spain-Italy-North Africa-conflict, NEVER plays out in any way that can at all be compared to the real world. Here I'm not talking about historical accuracy - it's a game obviously - but more that in the real world, a Roman or Greek conquest of Sicily would be followed by either of the following:

1) Carthage wants to take Sicily back, so their main capitol isn't so critically exposed

2) Roman or Greeks wanna jump from Sicily onto Carthage itself, to prevent 1) and also just because it would be an easy step towards supreme victory.

But because the AI - if it uses naval invasion AT ALL - doesn't consider such geography, the idea that Lilibeo (that's the name right?) and Carthage are Step 1 and Step 2 goes right out the window. For the AI, any other destination in the Mediterranean is just as likely as a jump between those 2 cities, and therefor it is impossible to emulate THE VERY REASON why Carthage AND the opponent of Carthage HAS ANY REASON for being in Sicily.
This has a number of problems, if one really wishes to use EB to experience the conflicts of the ancient world - they don't have to be accurate of course, but just possible - which are

1) if you play as Carthage, you're never seriously threatened by Rome, and since the threat from Rome was a driving force for Carthage in this period of time, that means the empire YOU RULE is much farther away from a realistic Carthage, than say the EB Baktria is away from the real life Baktria - even tho the geography is correct, you are building an empire under completely different premises than the actual Carthagians and have no chance of experiencing their challenges

2) if you play as Rome, taking Sicily from the Carthagians will, mostly, end the Punic Wars, and again, like 1), you'll be playing a campaign, where even though your lands are historically correct, their challenges are not. Like playing Napoleon but having England scratched off the map - it simply alters the experience immensely.

3) if you don't play as Rome OR Carthage, which is often my situation. Usually I play as a faction of the Eastern Mediterranean, and I always try to create a quite powerful state with secure borders and good economy etc. And everyone around me behave realistically - not historically accurate of course, but quite realistic anyway - so I really get the feeling that "ooh, I AM the KH" or whoever I'm playing. But then, after a few decades, I want to experience the threat from the west - that is, whatever empire has emerged triumphantly from the Punic Wars and now musters an immense strenght. But that almost never happens, unless Carthage has been immensely lucky and subdued Rome. Otherwise, there are just two non-super powers on each their continent.
I don't expect a big threat from the west in every game - of course there'll be the games where the Punic Wars never occur, and the stray ones where Lusotannan or some Celtic faction manage to contain their neighbours. But it bothers me, that I NEVER experience a Rome that has conquered Carthage.

4) very often the Carthagian AI gets stuck in North Africa, and unless you play as Ptolemaioi, they become COMPLETELY redundant. Even if you play as Lusotannan or Rome, factions who should, if EB should in any way be realistic, fear the progress of their southern neighbours, Carthage might as well be wiped off the face of the earth, and unless you play an invasion of Africa, it wouldn't matter to you at all

Now following this novel-size essay (sorry), I'm gonna propose somthing that sounds insane. A small mini-mod , not by the EB team of course, since it won't be directly historically accurate, but hopefully by some fans adapt at this thing. A mini-mod that adds the kind of Crossing, or whatever you call it, between Lilibeo and Carthage. I mean, so ordinary armies could WALK from the one place to the other.
Obviously, I'm aware of 2 problems here:
1) armies stopping in the middle of the water???:wall:
2) it being unrealistic that armies don't need a fleet here.
BUT I think 2) is easily overshadowed by HOW more realistic Italy-vs.-North Africa conflicts will be. Just think of it:
1) the Carthage AI will suddenly see Lilibeo not as a "why-did-the-gamemaker-give-us-that-let's-just-leave-it-and-let-whoever-take-it", but rather - like the real Carthagians - as a GATEWAY to their capitol itself. They'll therefor try to take it back if they lose it.
2) Carthage will be able to walk their armies to Sicily. In the games I've played, Carthage has always only used troops trained in Lilibeo for conquering Sicily, and then used the ones from Africa IN Africa. It will be much more historical, that the Carthage AI has been possibility of using the lion's share of their troops in the battle for the Mediterranean, rather than for subduing Sahara. Thus the rather unrelated problem of Carthage often getting stuck in Africa with nothing to do, will also be solved
3) the Rome AI will now have no reason whatsoever for STOPPING it's progress in Sicily, but rather, like in history, attempt to continue.
4) in the case of Rome/Carthage/Epeiros being overwhelmed by others in late game: the EB map will no longer have a dead end in Africa - the place where an AI faction expands, but just gets stuck, cos there's nowhere to go. The map would be much more alive. Perhaps a crossing between Spain/North Africa should also be considered, since that's just as realistic as the Sicily/Africa one, and because that would add to factions in Spin and North Africa taking decisions based on each other, and not pretending North Africa is as far away as Mars ;)
EDIT: just realized I can't even remember IF there is a crossing between Spain/North Africa. There isn't, right? ;)

EVEN in the case of future AI engines being more friendly towards the idea of naval invasion, my suggestion still solves one thing that wouldn't even solve: it makes it probable for the AI to go Lilibeo-Carthage or Carthage-Lilibeo, and not Lilibeo-Sparte or Carthage-Alexandria or whatever they might find funny. In real life, crossing directly from Lilibeo to Carthage, or the other way round, made sense, so if we want Rome and Carthage to behave IN ANY WAY comparable to realistic factions, we need to get the AI's to think such a progress makes sense. Then they'll behave much more like what could be expected from Romans or Carthagians, and not make their decisions on the basis of facts completely detached to the lay of the ancient world.

Hope you like it. As I said in the title, it's an idea for a mini-mod, I wouldn't consider the EB Team doing it, rather like Force Diplomacy, it could be such a little tweak that we could try, to see if we could get a more realistic behaviour out of the AI:yes:

i think that's a rather interesting suggestion. i'm impressed you laid out various conditions, etc, and it seems like a nearly workable situation....however, i know next to nothing of modding, and wait upon more experienced opinions to suggest if it's possible, or playable at all. certainly i'd agree that if there were some way of indicating that the gap between sicily and carthage was more important than carthage towards pretty much any other port...that would be good!

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Originally Posted by zooeyglass

i think that's a rather interesting suggestion. i'm impressed you laid out various conditions, etc, and it seems like a nearly workable situation....however, i know next to nothing of modding, and wait upon more experienced opinions to suggest if it's possible, or playable at all. certainly i'd agree that if there were some way of indicating that the gap between sicily and carthage was more important than carthage towards pretty much any other port...that would be good!

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I'm actually kinda scared of myself, seeing how bloody long that post got:laugh4: But I thought the actual idea sounded so far out ('walking on water from africa to sicily':clown:), that I had to get some arguments up there, so people would know why I'm suggesting this:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by artaxerxes

I'm actually kinda scared of myself, seeing how bloody long that post got:laugh4: But I thought the actual idea sounded so far out ('walking on water from africa to sicily':clown:), that I had to get some arguments up there, so people would know why I'm suggesting this:laugh4:

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if anything i'd suggest that your thread title, esp with "controversial" in it, might put people off, and lead them to think it's another LS or flaming pigs kinda question, or some such....in fact, your suggestion was a good one, you explained yourself, and it's just up to people who know how to mod to explain whether it's possible, within the mechanics of the game....what's controversial about that?

....oh wait, you want to build a bridge from africa to sicily? are you INSANE??....hehe

Well i agree with your basic concept, i just don't believe that this would be possible... I mean it might be possible, but there could be many side effects

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Originally Posted by anubis88

Well i agree with your basic concept, i just don't believe that this would be possible... I mean it might be possible, but there could be many side effects

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...like elephants rampaging in italia....

Anything that could be done to advance the competetiveness and strategic flexibility of the AI (without too much bias) sounds delicious to me.

Oh, and artaxerxes—the AI doesn't need to consider steps 1-2 in a 1st Punic War scenario if Rome has already been pushed back halfway up Italy ~;)

funny, i'm using Alex.exe and during my last 2 campaigns (as Pontos then now as Baktra) the Carthies are happily shipping stack after stack of elite pikemen and african infantry to eat some romans. Especially on my current one, the Aedui are giving them Romaioi a hard time, the Epirote's pushing up Italy from the east, Carthage landed 3 stacks to work their way up Rhegion...what surprised me the most is that the Makedonian AI (oh joy) are actually sending stacks into Italy through Illyria AND the ships the built from Ambrakia....it seems I won't be getting the Cat-tank bodyguard anytime soon xD

@artaxerxes:

Interesting post. :2thumbsup:
I would suggest you try out Ferromancers "EB for BI" mod, as it (beside a lot of other things) highly improves the chance of naval invasions.
I install it since EB 1.1 (or even 1.0 ... not sure about that...) and played some campaigns as Romans and Qart'Hadast.
I can tell that at least Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica are not safe areas anymore.
And in most of my campaigns the AI also managed to invade Italy or North Africa with rather nice armies. :yes:

I highly recommend that you try it out. ~:)

Try playing with BI (link in my sig) or the Alex engine. Much more challenging with naval invasions.

For those of us playing with RTW.exe this mini-mod would definitely liven things up. If someone makes this I would definitely use it.

While I agree that BI increases playability immensely, the naval invasions of the AI are rather predictable and usually anticlimactic. For example, if the Rome/Carthage wars break out, this is almost 100% the direction it follows:
1) Rome is the aggressor, usually attacking Alalia (the closest Carthie island to Rome). they take it inevitable since no walls = munching time
2) Rome usually takes Sardinia after that. Things are looking good.
3) By this time, Carthage usually has united Sicily, at which point peace is now impossible due to a usually shared border at Messana/Rhegion. Before that, expect MANY stops/restarts due to some bunghole of a diplomat getting mad xp getting continuous ceasefires.
4a) If Rome has waited long enough, it is developed to the point where it can push the Carthies off Sicily. Naval warfare intensifies between the two.
4b) If Rome HASN'T waited long enough (usually means attacking before 10 yrs have passed), then a stalemate develops for a while. Naval warfare intensifies between the two.
5a) After pushing Carthage off Sicily, Rome generally targets the Balaeric Isles. Rome may have gotten naval superiority but the AI is prone to spamming Oneireia until they finally build up naval ports whereas Carthage AI has a tendency to spam Punic Quinquiremes. If you see Quads or better in Roman fleets, they likely have superiority or at least equality.
5b) Carthage achieves naval superiority. Possibly you may see Quads in Roman fleets but by this point they can't compete against the many Punic Quins and Quads. At this point Sardinia is usually retaken by Carthage.
6a) Rome takes the Balaeres. A peace may break out at this point, in which case the "b" line will generally occur when war breaks out again in a couple decades. If not, then it becomes more of a cold war, with Rome focusing more on its northern neighbors and the Luso if they are even mildly successful. If Carthage remains in Iberia then Roman expansion seems slanted towards trying to reach the Carthie territories, though it won't turn down freebies in other directions if they can be had. Ironically, Roman expansion will be more successful if they do NOT hit the Marians, at which point you see spam stacks of Vigiles.
6b) Alalia is retaken by Carthage. Many Elite Pikes begin to appear and Carthage begins to invade Italy from Messana and via naval invasions at Capua. Slowly but surely Rome is worn down. Once Capua is taken Arretium is targeted with naval invasions. By the time Arretium falls the Romans are generally either reduced to a client state or pushed out of Italy entirely (and then usually reduced to client state status shortly thereafter). If they have been pushed out of Iberia a vigorous and almost always successful effort to reclaim the lost turf begins. At this point Carthage can take on virtually anyone as the Elite Pikes can win almost any battle in auto-calc. Excursions into Egypt are possible. The Reforms hit, no one notices.
7a) If all the barbarian threats are weak/fractious enough, Rome can slowly conquer Iberia and Gaul. Usually, however, either the Aedui/Arveni or Sweboz force them to commit too much and when the Luso strike (usually after uniting Spain) it is the straw that breaks the camel's back (10+ Ambakaro elites per stack doesn't hurt either). I have seen the Luso take Rome before. If, by this point the Carthies have signed a peace, they usually start some Sand Wars. If not, they typically start to reclaim territory after Rome crumbles. Generally, after 100+ years, Rome is being killed, regardless of how successful they were before. Too many enemies, too many elites. Eastward expansion seems rare for Rome.
7b) 100+ years in, Carthies have generally reunited Iberia as long as they got the initial foothold back at some point. Depending on how yellow Death the Ptolies became, they may also own parts of Egypt. The Sand Wars will tend to be Carthage's only true challenge at this point.

So if this mini-mod is done, you may want to put the Sicily-Carthage land bridge, Straits of Gibraltar land bridge, and English Channel land bridge. This way all AIs have incentive to keep being aggressive.

I'm in (though I don't know how to do it)

Anyone knows how to mod the strat map?

Maybe we could ask help to some EB members... so as they tell us where to look for tutorials... :smash:

I remember a thread saying how to add sea crossings. I'll try and find it. But would a better solution not be doing something like the Casse mainland invasion script, i.e. if Rome holds Lilibeo Carthage gets an army in sicily or Rome gets an army in Africa?

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Originally Posted by Strategos Alexandros

I remember a thread saying how to add sea crossings. I'll try and find it. But would a better solution not be doing something like the Casse mainland invasion script, i.e. if Rome holds Lilibeo Carthage gets an army in sicily or Rome gets an army in Africa?

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Scripted armies dont do anything... the best option is a sea bridge.

Ave!
I'm playing EB since it has seen the daylight. Therefore I'm so used to AI behaviour. Lately I've installed SPQR mod. At the beginning there Sicily is divided between Carthage, KH and Romans. Also one Carthaginian city in Italy. SPQR uses ordinary rtw.exe. I've played on VH/M. And now the catch: 8 to 10 Carthage or KH gets rid of me (romans) from Sicily at first (there are no land bridges between the island and mainland). I usually attack Carthage town on the mainland. What does the AI do? It sends full stack after stack armies via naval fleet to aid their fellows fighting in Italy or Sicily. When I besiege Carthage town (Taras if I remember) it sends army with elephants from Sicily. When KH in Sicily is besieged by Carthies, they send expedition from Greece includink Spartans. If it's otherwise, carthaginian expedition lands on sicilian shore to fight for their brothers besieged there. After I've united Italian Pennisula and started conquering north I liked to just watch Carthage/KH war in Sicily. Cities retaken in every few turns and full stack armies landing and fighting almost every turn there. Just poetry...
So my suggestion is: maybe ask Lt_1956 what he did to encourage AI for naval invasions on such a scale?
If it will work in EB you won't have to make unnatural landbridges from Africa and England.

In regular RTW the AI will reinforce it's own territory by sea, but won't invade that of other countries, so I'm afraid that probably won't work for this problem.

Edit: According to Uranos

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Re: Additional landbridges

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Sure they are all possible, and imo the best way to make a landbridge between Sicily and Carthage is to place several (5 or so) small, 1 pixel islands between.

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Maybe this can help ;)

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ridges&page=16

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=52483&page=23