Makedonian Thorakitai?

i've read through some posts in the forums, and apparently some people have managed to recruit thorakitai for Makedonia. i'm very aware that the Makedonians only have until the thureophoroi for their recruitment pool, and the only other option is either to recruit the elite but relatively small unit of peltastai makedonikoi, or just throw out the javelins and content myself with classical hoplites or hypaspistai (which i don't want to do - i think the javelins help soften up enemies just before they charge my flanks). i generally dislike using elite troops (only exception would be argyraspidai) because of their enormous cost they require in training, upkeep, and retraining, so i go for more 'regular', albeit a little less effective, troops. i got excited because in my last campaign (seleukid), i had thorakitai instead of thureophoroi guarding the flanks of my phalanx, which for obvious reasons, receive fewer casualties per battle, which means less time needed for retraining, which means more ground covered for a campaign (especially against arche seleukeia).

so, my question is this : do the makedones have some sort of thorakitai-type after they get their reforms on the campaign map? i already have the hysteroi pezhetairoi (just so you know, i sent an army to southern italy, captured sicily, taras, rhegion, capua and arpi, added population through the console, upgraded capua and arpi into huge cities, and then gave the two cities back to rome as a peace offering [peace lasted for 1 turn :D]) so maybe there is another reform that is dependent on the year (much like the marian reforms)?

thanks for any replies. :)

In an uneditted version of EB, the Antigonids do not get Thorakitai. They equip their phalangitai with chainmail rather than creating the Thorakitai heavy infantry.

It is somewhat simple to add Thorakitai to Makedonia, though. All you have to do is go into the export_descr_units.txt and find the entry for "greek infantry thorakitai". At the bottom of that entry add to the ownership line ", macedon". Then go into the export_descr_buildings text. Find every entry that says "recruit "greek infantry thorakitai" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } ... " (there will be a bunch of other stuff in the "..." area) and change it so that it says "recruit "greek infantry thorakitai" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, macedon, } ... ". There will be dozens of entries like this. Once you change all of those, you should be able to recruit Thorakitai in all the correct regions as Makedonia. (I think you may have to copy UI pictures, but that is only aesthetic.)

Well, the Makedonian Reforms do not give you any other units save for the HP, AFAIK. I recommend you go with regional units. As for me, I dislike elite units as well, which is why I disliked my AS game very much (AS unit roster is full of elites), and which is also why I chose Eperios over Makedonia (Eperios has few of the elites that the Maks poses).

So anyway, are you a Role-playing type of EB-gamer or are you more towards effectiveness and gameplay? Historically, Makedonia did not posses significant numbers of Thorkitai, which is why the EB Maks lack them (someone please correct me if I am wrong). So you should not want them in your game. However, if you lean more towards gameplay, which is what I think you are, then you will not have any qualms over employing an ahistorical unit. In this case, I suggest either the regional units, such as the Galatian Spearmen, or better yet, a sword unit. Really and truly, sword units are what you need. Spear units get two kinds of penalties versus sword units, whereas the sword units are good against anything that is not mounted. Most of the armies you will encouner will be mostly infantry based, so possesing large quantaties of spears will be quite inefficient.

once again, thank you marcusaureliusantoninus. as i suspected, makedonian thorakitai is an ahistorical dream. seeing other makedonian eb players having thorakitai in their armies just got me into an endless mood of wishful thinking... and about adding the thorakitai into the makedonian unit roster, i doubt that i have the competence in scanning a seemingly endless progression of lines on notepad. the fact that i needed to read your instructions three times to understand what it meant in its application only reinforces my assumption. :laugh4: i'm a history buff and a big fan of strategy games, but i think the brain of an artist doesn't have the load-bearing capacity to easily understand these kinds of things. XD


aemilius paulus, thanks for the reply, and i think i'd very much go with history than getting a better unit for protecting my phalanx's flank. i started to play eb for one reason only, and that's so i could play a game that for once, gives both pleasure and a healthy dose of education. i've already implemented what you said here from the very start of my campaign (i've employed keltohellenic infantry, rhomphaiaphoroi, bruttians, illyrian thureophoroi, classical hoplites, and yes, galatian kuarothoroi); i just wondered if i could fully standardize all my armies, which eventually led to the question of getting a unit better than the thureophoroi in terms of protecting my flanks, and at the time the only thing that came to my mind was the thorakitai. although i'm very concerned with assembling the most efficient armies, i am also very much concerned with achieving that goal without going beyond a certain specification, in this case historicity. :yes:

btw, i was a little aware that swords had such an advantage over spears, mainly because of my campaign (this is part of the makedonia campaign i'm playing - it's been going on for quite a while now) against the romani in southern italy. i was at war with them for 5 years already, if i remember correctly (i was keeping them alive and well on purpose - i declare a ceasefire with them and let them recover when they run out of stacks to throw against me. i just love slaughtering 2-3 romani stacks per battle because their units aren't that susceptible to the phalanx, and they are the only faction i know who's tough enough to raise 3-5 stacks after just around 2 turns of peace. :beam: sorry, i think i said too much.) and for around 3.75 years of those 10 (15 turns), i was using regular thureophoroi as my 'guards', so to speak. i had to retrain them because they've been battered badly (i hadn't retrained for 15 turns, approx. 11 battles were fought during this time, all against superior numbers - see why i think romani are the most enduring faction? now i understand how hannibal must have felt like -_-') so i sent them to taras, and replaced them with bruttian infantry, also from taras. for the next 9 turns, the bruttians protected my flanks from the enemy, and i noticed, to my surprise, that although i was losing about the same bruttians per battle compared to thureophoroi, under similar odds and conditions, they were killing more people. this was puzzling to me, especially because the thureophoroi have better stats overall than the bruttians. your comment just cleared that bit up, so thank you. :)

so u like to kill romans huh? Join Our group then =D

p.s. sry for off topic

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Originally Posted by glouch

once again, thank you marcusaureliusantoninus. as i suspected, makedonian thorakitai is an ahistorical dream. seeing other makedonian eb players having thorakitai in their armies just got me into an endless mood of wishful thinking... and about adding the thorakitai into the makedonian unit roster, i doubt that i have the competence in scanning a seemingly endless progression of lines on notepad.

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It's not that hard. I had to read it 5 times till I understood, but now it's all normal to me. Just make a backup of the respective files, and then go through MAA's guide step by step.

I don't think Thorakitai are ahistorical. If the Makedonians had really formed an empire once again, they sure would have adopted the Thorakites. In fact they did, look at the AS and the other Diadochi: they are Makedones themselves, and they adopted the Thorakites. Also, after some time under your firm rule and thorough hellenization, people like the Galatians or Thrakians wouldn't be able to field these type of soldiers they fielded in 272 any more, they'd want to fight in the Hellenic fashion instead.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

I don't think Thorakitai are ahistorical. If the Makedonians had really formed an empire once again, they sure would have adopted the Thorakites. In fact they did, look at the AS and the other Diadochi: they are Makedones themselves, and they adopted the Thorakites. Also, after some time under your firm rule and thorough hellenization, people like the Galatians or Thrakians wouldn't be able to field these type of soldiers they fielded in 272 any more, they'd want to fight in the Hellenic fashion instead.

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We have very slight use for even thurephoroi in the Antigonid army, let alone thorakitai. They may have used them, but we simply have no evidence.

I was rather talking of a scenario in which the Antigonids would have successfully fought the Thorakitai-using Diadochoi, eventually replacing them at least partly. An enduring Makedonian Empire on a larger scale would have changed the minds of the Makedonian strategoi.